CASteinman Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 I don't know of a sermon given by anyone in our church that only spoke of Jesus...This is really an astonishing claim.... between this and you never having heard that Joseph Smith was a polygamist -- I wonder -- how much attention are you paying? 1
CASteinman Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 our sermons they usually tie it into things that apply to the congregation.Yes... it is our belief that the Gospel should be practical and that we should teach to change lives. This is different than merely recitations of praises -- which may even be somewhat discouraged by Christ.
CASteinman Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 If we were to judge a church by its musical choices we would be condemned to an eternity of saccharine for the LDS pop music scene of the 80s.Well.. sometimes.... I actually like Saturday's Warrior! Well... some of it. But it was not the music per se. It was the editing of the music behind the words. It was burdensome, abusive and distracting. I hated it.
Tacenda Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 Is this one unacceptable to you?:http://jesuschrist.l...is-jesus-christThis one?:http://jesuschrist.l...of-jesus-christhttp://jesuschrist.l...of-jesus-christhttp://jesuschrist.l...in-jesus-christhttp://jesuschrist.l...eter-f-uchtdorfhttp://jesuschrist.l...tter-day-saintsHoly cow they are all acceptable of course. Now if we could whisper in the ears of all bishops out there to have atleast one talk a month similar ot these I'd be one happy camper.
Tacenda Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 You know.. there may be a certain desire here that is not in accordance with the will of Christ and... "If ye love me.. .keep my commandments". But nevertheless, you have this desire so consider these:"The Purifying Power of Gethsemane" by Bruce R. McConkie"The Seven Christs" by Bruce R. McConkie"The Mediator" by Boyd K Packer"Jesus is Our Savior" by David B. Haight"We Follow Jesus Christ" by Quentin L. Cook"In Remembrance of Jesus" by Robert D. Hales"Jesus the Christ" - Spencer W. Kimball"An Eternal Hope in Christ" - Spencer W. Kimball"Christ, our Passover" by Howard Hunter"He is Risen!" by Thomas S. MonsonI knew they were out there, thank you. As I told Cal, we need these in our sacrament meetings more often!!!
why me Posted August 21, 2012 Author Posted August 21, 2012 All I can say is that every time I start thinking about returning to the LDS Church it is very hard to get beyond the evidence ... and that is all I can say about this topic.What evidence is that? I do know that Oliver bore his testimony on his deathbed to his wife and daugther about the book of mormon and his experience. He didn't fess up. And when we think of Oliver's experience with the angel showing the plates, it is not difficult to understand why he would bear his testimony to them while his friends were present. That is pretty good evidence that his spiritual experience was real.
why me Posted August 21, 2012 Author Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) I find witnesses, miracles, the fruits of the Gospel and the testimony of the Holy Spirit in a lot of different denominations. I don't know of any modern Christians who don't claim these things except in some of the mainline denominations that are dying. Evangelicals and Catholics will overwhelm you with their miracles, etc. if you talk to them a little while. I don't find these things are anymore than what you would expect from any group of people who have had an encounter with Jesus Christ. So is the Book of Mormon a witness for Christ or a witness to the LDS Church? Do I accept it like the Baptist preacher who accepts it and remains a Baptist preacher? Do I accept it like some of the groups descended from Joseph Smith III accept it? Does accepting the Book of Mormon mean I should become a member of the Corporate LDS Church or does it have more universal implications?I think that we need to get our head around how 11 people could give testimony throughout their lives about their spiritual experience with the plates regardless of their station in the church. And David who had the same experience as Oliver had his testimony put on his tombstone after he died. This is amazing stuff. And oliver bearing his testimony to his wife and daugher on his deathbed. This shows a very powerful, life changing experience with the book of mormon. And reflecting on these testimonies should get one to reflect a little about the truthfulness of the book of mormon or at least think twice before claiming the lds church is a fraud. Edited August 21, 2012 by why me
Mudcat Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) Mudcat I honestly do not see what method of translation is depicted. Hi ERay,I am not sure if there is a word missing from the end of this sentence, like "matters". Answering it straightforward, I had to Google to try and find the right image ... but didn't see it right off. There is one in "Preach My Gospel" on page 7 and 38 that shows JS and OC sitting at a table together. JS has the plates open and is looking at them without any device and Cowdery is holding a pen and parchment. I don't think this picture is historically accurate based on the accounts of the process though.It has no bearing on what was translated and what we have. Whatever the method we have the testimony of Joseph Smith that it was by the power of God that it was done. I think that when one has a problem with a reported translation method it is personal biases getting in the way. When some commune with God they do so on their knees in fervent prayer. With me it is in study with a prayer in my heart on sometimes verbalized but I can assure you that his communication is in the form of a still small voice or understanding beyond my capabilities (believe me I am aware of my limitations) I know that I have had communication. So whether it was a rock in the hat, a peep stone, Urim and Thumim or fervent prayer, what is the problem with how it was done. It is/was done by the gift and power of god.I would agree that if the BoM is true, JS is a Prophet and so forth then exactly how it was translated doesn't seem all that important.But in the case of a depiction of the translation, I think if someone who is familiar with the accounts of how it was translated happened along a false depiction in a Church publication like "Preach My Gospel" would likely wonder what that was all about. In general I don't think it would leave a person with a favorable impression. I imagine they wouldn't think the people that put the publication together used that image because they didn't know any better. Rather, I think such a person would actually feel that that a historical inaccuracy must have been preferred and likely draw a number of negative conclusions.I know I am just talking about how something like that, might make a person feel... but it's very significant I think, because the CoJCoLDS is a feeling driven sort of belief which isn't disimilar from my own, in that respect. The confirmation of the Holy Spirit is more of a feeling type thing.. but given it's positive nature it's on the opposite end of the spectrum.I don't imagine people leave the CoJCoLDS or become very angry over a single thing like a picture, I would think it is much more of cumulative effect and my illustration would be something like a small weight some might add to the negative. From reading exLDS posts in the past, I think there are issues that might seem quite bit weightier to most, if not all.I don't disagree with Steinman's post, in some respects, in that it has a lot to do with how you choose to take something. But for some, it seems the negative reaches a point where it outweighs the positive and disbeleif seems more reasonable than belief. I would imagine it would give one an entirely different outlook on what they once believed to be true. All the time, money and actions that had been put towards something would seem like a loss and being angry about it would be understandable.Regards,Mudcat Edited August 21, 2012 by Mudcat
CASteinman Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 Holy cow they are all acceptable of course. Now if we could whisper in the ears of all bishops out there to have atleast one talk a month similar ot these I'd be one happy camper.Objectively.... Should the Bishop cater to the happiness whims of members like that?
why me Posted August 21, 2012 Author Posted August 21, 2012 I did not say I didn't want to return to the LDS Church. I'm still considering it.You know that I also attend the catholic church. But to tell you the truth, I just can't get my head around the spiritual experience that I had when I prayed about the book of mormon and the testimony of the 11 witnesses that they gave throughout their lives, especially on their deathbeds to relatives and friends.
why me Posted August 21, 2012 Author Posted August 21, 2012 Is this one unacceptable to you?:http://jesuschrist.l...is-jesus-christThis one?:http://jesuschrist.l...of-jesus-christhttp://jesuschrist.l...of-jesus-christhttp://jesuschrist.l...in-jesus-christhttp://jesuschrist.l...eter-f-uchtdorfhttp://jesuschrist.l...tter-day-saintsI knew that the poster was opening themselves to some pain Cal when they claimed what they claimed.
Bart Burk Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 You know that I also attend the catholic church. But to tell you the truth, I just can't get my head around the spiritual experience that I had when I prayed about the book of mormon and the testimony of the 11 witnesses that they gave throughout their lives, especially on their deathbeds to relatives and friends.I agree that's a strong evidence in support of the claims regarding the Book of Mormon.
Tacenda Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 Objectively.... Should the Bishop cater to the happiness whims of members like that?I think he would be open to it.
Tacenda Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) I knew that the poster was opening themselves to some pain Cal when they claimed what they claimed. I knew what I was doing Why Me, by opening up myself to look like an idiot. But look at the ones Cal found, nice... Edited August 21, 2012 by Tacenda
Somebodyz Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 Objectively.... Should the Bishop cater to the happiness whims of members like that?There would always be some unhappy camper.Saying that if you want something, the best way of getting it, is to volunteer.IMO you find what you seek..be that positive or negative. The Saviour can be found everywhere.
why me Posted August 21, 2012 Author Posted August 21, 2012 Hi ERay,I am not sure if there is a word missing from the end of this sentence, like "matters". Answering it straightforward, I had to Google to try and find the right image ... but didn't see it right off. There is one in "Preach My Gospel" on page 7 and 38 that shows JS and OC sitting at a table together. JS has the plates open and is looking at them without any device and Cowdery is holding a pen and parchment. I don't think this picture is historically accurate based on the accounts of the process though.Regards,MudcatThis account comes from one of Oliver's friends who claims that this is the way it was done. But at the moment I cannot find the reference.
Walden Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 Why me....you keep going back to the 11 witnesses and claiming that because of their testimony of seeing angels and such, the church must be true, or at least their witnessing of angels must be true.You are aware that many, many people have reported seeing angels, no? And many of these people would bear witness to seeing such things on their deathbed, no? How is their experience any less valid than that of the 11 witnesses. People claim to see things all the time (aparitions of the Virgin Mary {particulalry popular among Catholics}, ghosts, etc., but that doesn't mean that there accounts are valid.You seem to be arguing that because the 11 witnesses didn't recant their story, it must be true, as if no man has ever died in dishonesty.
why me Posted August 21, 2012 Author Posted August 21, 2012 I knew what I was doing Why Me, by opening up myself to look like an idiot. But look at the ones Cal found, nice...It was still painful waiting for the responses to your post.
why me Posted August 21, 2012 Author Posted August 21, 2012 You seem to be arguing that because the 11 witnesses didn't recant their story, it must be true, as if no man has ever died in dishonesty.I just cannot see why Oliver would be dishonest to his wife and daughter on his deathbed or why david would put his testimony on his tombstone. Both were religious and I don't believe they would risk the wrath of god in the afterlife by continuing the lie.
why me Posted August 21, 2012 Author Posted August 21, 2012 You are aware that many, many people have reported seeing angels, no? And many of these people would bear witness to seeing such things on their deathbed, no? How is their experience any less valid than that of the 11 witnesses. People claim to see things all the time (aparitions of the Virgin Mary {particulalry popular among Catholics}, ghosts, etc., but that doesn't mean that there accounts are valid.I just find these 11 people very convincing and never wavering. Something happened to them with the book of mormon. The question is what?
Bart Burk Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) Why me....you keep going back to the 11 witnesses and claiming that because of their testimony of seeing angels and such, the church must be true, or at least their witnessing of angels must be true.You are aware that many, many people have reported seeing angels, no? And many of these people would bear witness to seeing such things on their deathbed, no? How is their experience any less valid than that of the 11 witnesses. People claim to see things all the time (aparitions of the Virgin Mary {particulalry popular among Catholics}, ghosts, etc., but that doesn't mean that there accounts are valid.You seem to be arguing that because the 11 witnesses didn't recant their story, it must be true, as if no man has ever died in dishonesty.Perhaps the apparitions of the Virgin Mary and witnesses such as those to the Book of Mormon are all signs of God's intervention in the world. One may be just as true as the other in God's economy of bringing people to Christ. We can't simply ignore them and assume they are frauds, but we can't overstate what they say about the organizations claiming them. Edited August 21, 2012 by Bart Burk
Thinking Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 I just find these 11 people very convincing and never wavering. Something happened to them with the book of mormon. The question is what?In light of the warnings which Christ issued about false prophets having the ability to show great signs and wonders (Matt. 24:24), I think it's dangerous to be awed by apparent miracles.
Bart Burk Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 In light of the warnings which Christ issued about false prophets having the ability to show great signs and wonders (Matt. 24:24), I think it's dangerous to be awed by apparent miracles.Wouldn't a false prophet cause you to doubt that Jesus was the Son of God who atoned for our sins and rose from the dead? If an apparition or miracle leads you closer to Christ is that really something we should be afraid of? Of course if it causes us to doubt Christ's resurrection then I would be concerned -- Islam comes to mind.
Walden Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 I just cannot see why Oliver would be dishonest to his wife and daughter on his deathbed or why david would put his testimony on his tombstone. Both were religious and I don't believe they would risk the wrath of god in the afterlife by continuing the lie.I cannot see why many people would be dishonest to family on their deathbed, but this does not mean that it cannot happen or that it does not happen, and often. My good friend lost her dearly beloved grandfather, only to find out after his death, that he was actually cheating on her grandmother for decades. His tombstone noted him as a loving father and husband, though in retrospect, the tombstone may be wrong in light of the facts that have since been uncovered about his past marital indiscretions.IMO, just because somewhere swears on a secret to their grave doesn't give any credence to the validity of their experience.
Tacenda Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 It was still painful waiting for the responses to your post. I'm just glad Selek 1 wasn't around, he would have had a hey day.
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