CASteinman Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 All I can say is that every time I start thinking about returning to the LDS Church it is very hard to get beyond the evidence ... and that is all I can say about this topic.You mean like the evidence of the witnesses, miracles, the fruits of the Gospel and the testimony of the Holy Ghost?Or the evidences of people who are no better than Celsus at rejecting the truth of God?
CASteinman Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 It isn't the kind of preaching we're use to in our church but it sure touched my soul.I don't think you have paid attention so much to the messages of the Church Leaders if you think this is somehow different. This reminds me of a person searching for their glasses when their glasses are already on their head. You find some great meaning in this rather pedantic but emotionally charged talk when you can find the same things in the Church -- but perhaps without the African American diction and perhaps with a different emotional cant.Is that the problem? Not enough African American emotive pronunciations? Because otherwise... there isn't a huge qualitative difference here.(P.S. I HATED this video -- mainly because of the manipulative and overbearing music editing in the background. )
ERayR Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 You could make the point that the Savior CHOSE to do His Father's will. He didn't have to. He had free agency too.Already got you but thanks. I didn't say no mention I said very little.
ERayR Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 I don't think you have paid attention so much to the messages of the Church Leaders if you think this is somehow different. This reminds me of a person searching for their glasses when their glasses are already on their head. You find some great meaning in this rather pedantic but emotionally charged talk when you can find the same things in the Church -- but perhaps without the African American diction and perhaps with a different emotional cant.Is that the problem? Not enough African American emotive pronunciations? Because otherwise... there isn't a huge qualitative difference here.(P.S. I HATED this video -- mainly because of the manipulative and overbearing music editing in the background. )I think I have come to understand Tacenda a little. She is very swayed by emotional appeal and has to work hard on any other approach. A very caring person but pulled in all directions.
Bart Burk Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 You mean like the evidence of the witnesses, miracles, the fruits of the Gospel and the testimony of the Holy Ghost?Or the evidences of people who are no better than Celsus at rejecting the truth of God?I find witnesses, miracles, the fruits of the Gospel and the testimony of the Holy Spirit in a lot of different denominations. I don't know of any modern Christians who don't claim these things except in some of the mainline denominations that are dying. Evangelicals and Catholics will overwhelm you with their miracles, etc. if you talk to them a little while. I don't find these things are anymore than what you would expect from any group of people who have had an encounter with Jesus Christ. So is the Book of Mormon a witness for Christ or a witness to the LDS Church? Do I accept it like the Baptist preacher who accepts it and remains a Baptist preacher? Do I accept it like some of the groups descended from Joseph Smith III accept it? Does accepting the Book of Mormon mean I should become a member of the Corporate LDS Church or does it have more universal implications?
CASteinman Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 I find witnesses, miracles, the fruits of the Gospel and the testimony of the Holy Spirit in a lot of different denominations.This is irrelevant. Its not "lots of denominations" we are talking about. Just one. I don't know of any modern Christians who don't claim these things except in some of the mainline denominations that are dying.Again... irrelevant. We are talking about just one denomination. So is the Book of Mormon a witness for Christ or a witness to the LDS Church?Both. It is His Church.Do I accept it like the Baptist preacher who accepts it and remains a Baptist preacher? Do I accept it like some of the groups descended from Joseph Smith III accept it? Does accepting the Book of Mormon mean I should become a member of the Corporate LDS Church or does it have more universal implications?It means you should become a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But you have your agency.
wenglund Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 He said he saw Angel Moroni, gold plates, First Vision, etc. I believed him.I feel tricked and conned by Robuchan and others because they once believed and now they don't. I am wondering if I should be angry, too, for all the good it will do anyone.Gee, this blame game sure is fun. The silliness factor is through the roof. It is kind of nice, though, to off-load personal accountability for awhile. It keeps me from moving forward, but progression can be so overrated.Thanks, -Wade Englund- 2
happy Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 All I can say is that every time I start thinking about returning to the LDS Church it is very hard to get beyond the evidence ... and that is all I can say about this topic.It's easy. Tell Satan to shut up.
ERayR Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) All I can say is that every time I start thinking about returning to the LDS Church it is very hard to get beyond the evidence ... and that is all I can say about this topic.I would say it is not the evidence that is the problem but rather where you choose to put your credence. Edited August 21, 2012 by ERayR
happy Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 There is no point.Then why are you here wasting time talking about this great con?
Walden Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 CASteinman, you are correct that we are just speaking about "one" religion here, but it is a religion that makes the same claims as a variety of religions, (witnesses, miracles, etc.) but then goes on to make the argument that those other religions are untrue, and that only the LDS version of witnesses, miracles, ect. are valid or authentic. As your response, "it is irrelevant?" Maybe to an LDS believer it is irrelvant, but to my devout Catholic mother-in-law, her experiences of confirmation by the spirit, her experiences of miracles, her strong testimony of the truthfulness of the Catholic faith, these are not irrelavant to her. In fact, her belief in the Catholic faith is expressed with many of the same worn cliches that are used by the LDS faithful.....just substitute the word "mormon" for her use of "catholic" when extolling the virtues of her faith, and you would swear you were in a fast and testimony meeting.Getting back on topic, I think that anger is just one of the steps that an exmo goes through when leaving the faith. Admittedly, it may be the most irrational of the stages of leaving the faith, as it often leads one to throw indisciminant punches in the face of all things LDS, but it is a real and painful reaction none the less. Anger is just one of the commonly accepted stages of loss and grief, which generally begins with denial or isolation, followed by anger, followed by barganing, followed by depression and ultimately acceptance.I think that those who defend the faith are more prone to attack those who are still in the anger stage of leaving the faith because it makes the simplest target for them. Anger generates irrational thought, which is easy for the LDS defenders to nit-pick. It also makes an easy target for LDS defenders to deflect the tough questions about their own faith while holding up the angry or irrational non-believer as just that, angry and irrational and not to be trutsed, without the LDS defender having to account for their own irrational beliefs. 1
CASteinman Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 CASteinman, you are correct that we are just speaking about "one" religion here, but it is a religion that makes the same claims as a variety of religions, (witnesses, miracles, etc.) but then goes on to make the argument that those other religions are untrue, and that only the LDS version of witnesses, miracles, ect. are valid or authentic. (above snipped for brevity)I don't think you understood the issue entirely. He was saying that he did not want to return to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not any Church. One particular Church. That is why I said that we were only talking about one denomination -- because he was only talking about that one and his inability to return to it. I was not commenting on the LDS Church vs the World.Hope that clears that minor issue up.
Tacenda Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) I don't think you have paid attention so much to the messages of the Church Leaders if you think this is somehow different. This reminds me of a person searching for their glasses when their glasses are already on their head. You find some great meaning in this rather pedantic but emotionally charged talk when you can find the same things in the Church -- but perhaps without the African American diction and perhaps with a different emotional cant.Is that the problem? Not enough African American emotive pronunciations? Because otherwise... there isn't a huge qualitative difference here.(P.S. I HATED this video -- mainly because of the manipulative and overbearing music editing in the background. )I don't know of a sermon given by anyone in our church that only spoke of Jesus---without the temple, missionary, priesthood inferences. Please enlighten me of just one sermon like this? I'm not saying they all don't have Jesus Christ in them and that it doesn't all narrow down to Him being the reason for temple & missionary work. But just once I want it to be about Him only. I'm sure there is one out there I just wondered if you could recall one without me searching at this time.Btw, did you watch the full youtube of "That's My King"? It gets better after the initial shock of the Baptist minister's preaching style when we are so use to the soft spoken words in GC. Edited August 21, 2012 by Tacenda
Libs Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 (P.S. I HATED this video -- mainly because of the manipulative and overbearing music editing in the background. ) There is an even better reason to be leery, as John Piper is a Calvinist. Approach with extreme caution.
Bart Burk Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 (above snipped for brevity)I don't think you understood the issue entirely. He was saying that he did not want to return to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not any Church. One particular Church. That is why I said that we were only talking about one denomination -- because he was only talking about that one and his inability to return to it. I was not commenting on the LDS Church vs the World.Hope that clears that minor issue up.I did not say I didn't want to return to the LDS Church. I'm still considering it.
CASteinman Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 There is an even better reason to be leery, as John Piper is a Calvinist. Approach with extreme caution.Calvinism is a blight on the landscape of Christianity, but many Calvinists are really excellent people.
CASteinman Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 Btw, did you watch the full youtube of "That's My King"? It gets better after the initial shock of the Baptist minister's preaching style when we are so use to the soft spoken words in GC.To me... it gets worse and worse. His words are mostly OK.. though there are some marginal matters in there. But the music edited in the mix is so annoying. It becomes sickening.
Libs Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 Calvinism is a blight on the landscape of Christianity, but many Calvinists are really excellent people.Absolutely. Some of my very favorite people are Calvinists.But, the doctrine is very dark.
KevinG Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 To me... it gets worse and worse. His words are mostly OK.. though there are some marginal matters in there. But the music edited in the mix is so annoying. It becomes sickening.If we were to judge a church by its musical choices we would be condemned to an eternity of saccharine for the LDS pop music scene of the 80s. 1
Calm Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 I don't know of a sermon given by anyone in our church that only spoke of Jesus---without the.....missionary....inferencesMissionary work is about inviting people to Christ. Do you seriously think we should not be inviting people to Christ? 1
Calm Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) I don't know of a sermon given by anyone in our church that only spoke of Jesus---without the temple, missionary, priesthood inferences. Is this one unacceptable to you?:http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/his-life-and-teachings/articles/who-is-jesus-christThis one?:http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/testimonies-of-him/articles/we-testify-of-jesus-christhttp://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/his-life-and-teachings/articles/the-atonement-of-jesus-christhttp://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/faith-in-jesus-christ/articles/faith-in-jesus-christhttp://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/special-witnesses/video/president-dieter-f-uchtdorfhttp://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/testimonies-of-him/articles/the-living-christ-the-testimony-of-the-apostles-of-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints Edited August 21, 2012 by calmoriah
CASteinman Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 I don't know of a sermon given by anyone in our church that only spoke of Jesus---without the temple, missionary, priesthood inferences. Please enlighten me of just one sermon like this? I'm not saying they all don't have Jesus Christ in them and that it doesn't all narrow down to Him being the reason for temple & missionary work. But just once I want it to be about Him only. I'm sure there is one out there I just wondered if you could recall one without me searching at this time.You know.. there may be a certain desire here that is not in accordance with the will of Christ and... "If ye love me.. .keep my commandments". But nevertheless, you have this desire so consider these:"The Purifying Power of Gethsemane" by Bruce R. McConkie"The Seven Christs" by Bruce R. McConkie"The Mediator" by Boyd K Packer"Jesus is Our Savior" by David B. Haight"We Follow Jesus Christ" by Quentin L. Cook"In Remembrance of Jesus" by Robert D. Hales"Jesus the Christ" - Spencer W. Kimball"An Eternal Hope in Christ" - Spencer W. Kimball"Christ, our Passover" by Howard Hunter"He is Risen!" by Thomas S. Monson
Tacenda Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 Missionary work is about inviting people to Christ. Do you seriously think we should not be inviting people to Christ?No, I just want to know of a sermon given that is centered entirely on the Savior. I believe I've heard a few from different faiths and if anyone must CFR that is fine, I'll dig them up. But like our sermons they usually tie it into things that apply to the congregation. I was just curious is all.
CASteinman Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 But, the doctrine is very dark.Yes, I agree.
CASteinman Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) I did not say I didn't want to return to the LDS Church. I'm still considering it.And yet every time you consider it, you reject it because of what you consider to be "evidence". You want to return... but upon thinking about it.. are unable.One of the scriptures says: "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways". This problem you have with the Church is not really about the evidence but it is about your reaction to what you think is evidence.This may seem like a distinction without a difference -- but it is actually very different. Edited August 21, 2012 by CASteinman 1
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