Revelation, Coercion, And Martin Harris

[pogi]

In your scenario there is only one possible future, and because linear time is fixed, there cannot be any any reality contrary to God's omniscient observations. It's called predestination. The past, present, and future are immutable. The events embedded into the reality of the Universe are non-negotiable. This renders free will absent from the Universe.

God can know in advance what I will do, because free will is to be understood only as freedom from forceful coercion, and anything further is an illusion. This is the stance of compatibilism and sounds like the argument that zerinus is making. Predestination suggests that all events have been willed by God, that is not what zerinus is saying.

http://plato.stanfor.../compatibilism/

Edited December 13, 2012 by pogi

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In discussing the story of Martin Harris and the lost 116 pages, one question is seldom asked:

Did Martin Harris coerce God?

I'm using the word "coerce" in a loose sense, with the idea that God did not want Martin to show the 116 pages to his wife, Lucy. But when faced with the possibility of losing Martin's financial support for the Book of Mormon translation and publication, permission was given.

In other words, if Martin Harris hadn't been the key financial figure in the process, would the story have ended any differently? If an alternate investor had come forward around that time, would Martin still have been given permission to take the pages?

It would only upset the time frame...Joseph may have lived longer.

[The Nehor]

When you figure this out let me know. But from my vantage point you will first have to answer:

Can our prayers actually change God's will? My initial response goes something like this: His omniscience precludes the introduction of any new information given through our prayers so there is no possibility that we could change His mind. Prayers should therefore be devotional in nature nad at times an opportunity to seek revelation and the humility to be obedient.

Change his will? Maybe. The problem you propose is not a new one but the question is then why we should do anything at all as God's will should rule. God knows what I need. By this logic I should not seek employment, eat, or do anything as if God wants me to He could make it happen. If God gave us free will and the ability to influence things by our actions I see no reason he should not also allow our prayers to influence things.

I have some power God gives me with few limits. I can help someone or insult them. I can feed the hungry or try to kill my enemies. Through prayer (and priesthood) humans are given the ability to influence things in ways they cannot in genral do. It is too dangerous for us or anyone else to have that kind of power without a divine veto.

It is akin to school rules. The general rules are what we can and cannot do generally. In special cases you can appeal to the dean to allow you to break some of them but it is subject to his review.

Again, the strangeness is not that God should allow us to influence events through prayer; it is that God has given us the ability to influence anything at all. Agency is a dignity beyond compare and to a limited extent almost an abdication by God of his omnipotence. I still shudder at the risks He takes at times but in the end He would know whether it is worth it.

[CV75]

when faced with the possibility of losing Martin's financial support for the Book of Mormon translation and publication, permission was given.

I do not think this was the motive. From my understanding of what the Lord does for His children and how he conducts His business, permission was given because it was the best way to teach all involved a lesson and give them opportunity to experience consequences, repentance and progress.

That said, I’m sure the lord could have arranged another way to get the Book of Mormon translated and published in the event the intended lessons were not learned.

[Duncan]

In discussing the story of Martin Harris and the lost 116 pages, one question is seldom asked:

Did Martin Harris coerce God?

I'm using the word "coerce" in a loose sense, with the idea that God did not want Martin to show the 116 pages to his wife, Lucy. But when faced with the possibility of losing Martin's financial support for the Book of Mormon translation and publication, permission was given.

In other words, if Martin Harris hadn't been the key financial figure in the process, would the story have ended any differently? If an alternate investor had come forward around that time, would Martin still have been given permission to take the pages?

it's an interesting question. In 1Nephi 9 I think...Nephi is commanded by the Lord to include the writings on the small plates of Nephi for a wise purpose, that he doesn't know.This whole Book of Lehi debacle happened in 1828 yet 1st Nephi wasn't translated until the following year. Joseph Smith couldn't have known about losing the Book of Lehi, so one could say that if Joseph wrote the Book of Mormon (which I don't hold to that position) he could have easily written into 1st Nephi this bit about Nephi being commanded to include the small plates to further his purposes. I think however the Lord did to Joseph what he did to Oliver Cowdery when he flopped at translating, just calm down, it's not the end of the world!!