A Mormon And A Catholic

[selek1]

However, IMO simply stating that not all Apostles speak doctrine when speaking is sometimes not enough. The Church's official stance is no stance! Which gives plenty of ammo for the perpetuation of pet folklore. Seems like if it was wrong they would have said it was wrong, why so neutral? Are they the Whore of All the Earth and The Church of the Devil? If not say so, no need for Apostles to say they are without being corrected if it is wrong.

Yes, Biz- we understand that you have an axe to grind and a grudge to nurse.

We get it.

We simply don't care about your personal crusade

Tell you what- when you successfully silence a/o repudiate every misleading, anti-Catholic statement made by such stalwarts as Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden, I'll begin worrying about fifty-year-old comments made by a Mormon Apostle (and later denounced by the First Presidency).

[KevinG]

Many may think that a man in my standing ought to be perfect; no such thing. If you would only think of it for a moment you would not have me perfect, for if I were perfect the Lord would take me to Paradise quicker than you would be willing to have me go there. I want to stay with you; and I expect to be just nearly perfect enough to lead you on. (Brigham Young, 10:212)

[KevinG]

I have a close and active Catholic friend who discusses religion with me when we carpool.

He of course does not think my Prophet is a Pope and I of course don't think his Pope is a Prophet. However we have a great deal of respect for the teachings and leadership of both men of God. Our common beliefs far outweigh the differences we have over authority.

Neither of us tries to dredge up old quotes or rehash old conflicts in order to score points over the other in a fruitless debate. It makes our conversations much more edifying and enlightening.

I am sure Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan are mature enough to discuss their faith rationally and in a positive way.

Edited August 14, 2012 by KevinG

[BCSpace]

I am sure Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan are mature enough to discuss their faith rationally and in a positive way.

Romney should invite him to a big FHE with his children and grandchildren and do one of my favorites, an old timey flannel board story, say, Noah's ark.

Seriously.

[mrmandias]

Zakuska,

But isn't that the whole point of Modern Prophets and Apostles to clear this stuff up? The New Testament exist in part simply because the Apostles were clearing up False Doctrine, correct?

So why not today?

Because very few members are on an anti-Catholic kick?

[blueadept]

Romney should invite him to a big FHE with his children and grandchildren and do one of my favorites, an old timey flannel board story, say, Noah's ark.

Seriously.

I see no reason religion should be an issue with Romney and Ryan and this would be an unnecessary invitation IMHO.

[selek1]

I see no reason religion should be an issue with Romney and Ryan and this would be an unnecessary invitation IMHO.

Yeah- but darned if it wouldn't make for a photo-op to drive the Left even more bat-guano crazy!

See! See! Romney invited his VP pick to a religious function.

This is PROOF that national policy will be determined by RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE!!!!!

AHHH!!!! AHHH!!!!! THEOCRACY!! CONSPIRACY!! BLACK HELICOPTERS!!!!!

The Blue Pill? A sip of water?

Thank you, Doctor.

I feel much better now....

[KevinG]

Romney could replace the Christmas Tree ornament of Chairman Mao with one of Joseph Smith. That would send the press reeling.

[selek1]

Romney could replace the Christmas Tree ornament of Chairman Mao with one of Joseph Smith. That would send the press reeling.

Can you imagine the twittering, hand-fluttering chatter than will take place (Left and Right) when he takes Oath of Office on...gasp... a Bible?

[Biz]

Yes, Biz- we understand that you have an axe to grind and a grudge to nurse.

We get it.

We simply don't care about your personal crusade

Tell you what- when you successfully silence a/o repudiate every misleading, anti-Catholic statement made by such stalwarts as Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden, I'll begin worrying about fifty-year-old comments made by a Mormon Apostle (and later denounced by the First Presidency).

Selek1, Speak for yourself and your two bonus reputation point associates. I'm sure you don't speak on behalf of the board and sure we the plural cares, there have been plenty of pragmatic posts addressing my issue on this thread in a productive way. Yours however is unproductive and is a great example of why a lot of people don't hang out here or find their association here useful.

[Calm]

What I'm interested in is if you think the Church will come out with a statement that the LDS Church does not hold as Doctrine that the Catholic Church is, The Church of The Devil, The Mother of All Harlots, and the Whore of all the Earth?"

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/warring-against-the-saints-of-god?lang=eng

[TAO]

My thoughts exactly. The Mormon, of course, walks out when he realizes the bar doesn't serve root beer.

You get a + for this one!

[why me]

Hey Biz.

I am Catholic. I think in terms of 2,000 years for the life of a Church. 200 years is nothing. It might seem like a long time, but I would suggest that if this doctrine has died out, and doesn't revive, and is quietly removed from manuals while living Apsotles don't mention it, that the White Horse thing was a brief and very temporary aberration.

As a Catholic, I have suggested that if I was LDS, I would believe that the Catholic Church was the Whore. I think it is a very defendable position to take. But I am not LDS, and if Mormons want to back away from these speculations that have never become official, I am happy to let "bygones be bygones". It would seem, at least based on LDS thoughts on this board, that this doctrine is bygone and on its way to the dustheap of the young history of your church.

3DOP

I think that it is difficult to back away from something that was never doctrine. One can back away from speculation. I remember discussing the abominable church when I was a young adult. We discussed whether it was the catholic church, communism and other possibilities. But this was not done in class but among ourselves. I don't remember anyone expressing an opinion from the pulpit or from a teacher.

What is interesting is: the problem that mormons faced in the beginning came from protestant religions and not from the catholic church. I think that this is one reason for the cathedral in salt lake. The persecution came from protestant ministers who did not want to control their flock against the mormons.

[why me]

Maybe it is a Utah and Mississippi issue? Because that is where I heard it often.

I never heard it. And many here never heard it. In mississippi it is often heard? I still haven't seen any references from you. I would think that one could find a conference talk about it. Have you found one?

[saemo]

CFR please

OK then.

Well first off, most people tie this legend of Brigham Young to the Cathedral, which isn't possible because Young died before the Cathedral property was purchased.

"The two of them [bp. Scanlan and Fr. Kiely] traveled a circuit by carriage or stagecoach at least monthly from Park City to Bingham Canyon, Mercur, Stockton and Ophir. The people who flowed into Utah to work those mines and the wealth the produced made possible the development of the Church in Utah. As the fortunes of people like Thomas Kearns, John J. Daly, and John and Mary Judge changed from poverty to wealth, their mansions slowly rose up along South Temple and other elegant districts. Some of their signatures remain beneath stained-glass windows they donated to the Cathedral" (Topping 7)

So, the only other Catholic church prior to the cathedral in SLC was the "Old St. Mary's" church. Brigham Young arbitrated a dispute over the title of the land purchased for this church. That is the extent of his involvement...

"Old St. Mary's, although a majestic yellow brick structure that towered above its neighbors, had been designed for a Catholic population of barely two dozen people, and had already become inadequate. On February 25, 1890, supported by the new silver wealth within the Catholic community, Bishop Scanlan purchased Lot 2, Block 12, Plat D in Salt Lake City, the property on which the Cathedral of the Madeleine and rectory now stand, from Sarah M. McKibben for $35,000. On March 24, Lot 3, where the north parking lot is now located, was purchased from Lorenzo D. Young for $14,500 by warranty deed." (Topping 10)

"The first permanent Catholic presence in Utah came in the form of Father Edward Kelly, who was sent to Salt Lake City in 1866 by Archbishop Joseph Sadoc Alemany of San Francisco. On November 6 of that year, Kelly purchased a small adobe building and a lot on the west side of Second East between South Temple and First South. Kelly was apparently assisted in the purchase the the Catholic people of the city, who bonded themselves $2,899, a sum which included funds to enlarge the building, which Father Kelly intended to use as a school as well as a church. Unfortunately, Kelly learned that the title to the property was flawed, and the resolution of the matter involved the first contact between the Catholic church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS). Kelly asserted that "he wanted no legal proceedings; that he bought the property in good faith, and had paid the market price for it," according to Father Denis Kiely, who wrote the first history of the diocese in 1900. Kelly and his opponent agreed to submit the matter to Brigham Young for arbitration, and the LDS president ruled in favor the Catholic" (Topping 3)

"On June 4, 1866, an option had been taken on a lot on which to build the first Catholic church building in Utah. The population of the city at the time was 17,000. The property selected for the new church was in a neighborhood of prominent Mormons, including Joseph Young and A.M. Musser. Hosea Stout lived across the street and directly across stood Wells Fargo Company. Friends of Father Kelly also lived nearby -- the John Adams, the Thomas Marshalls, and the Edward Connors. A block away was the Salt Lake Theater and across the street from it the City Hall; and through the block, a social hall. It was a central location, and the little piece of properly, 50 by 165 feet, was not cheap. It cost $2,300. On August 2nd the option was exercised in the names of Thomas Marshall and John Adams. But William B. Twitchell, the seller, did not have a clear title from the man who originally sold him the property, Joseph B. Nobles.

On Monday, September 3, 1866, the Union Vedette noted that Father Kelly was en route to Salt Lake City. Upon his return he faced the problem of clearing the property title. With characteristic forthrightness, he went directly to Brigham Young to arbitrate the conflict, and the ruling was made in Father Kelly's favor" (Fitzgerald, 28-29)

"He [Father Kelly] thanked contributors publicly and announced his intention to solicit donations in adjoining states and territories. On September 27 he announced the purchase of the lot on which to build a church in Salt Lake City as soon as practicable. On September 21, 1866, a deed had been filed in the Salt Lake County Recorder's office transferring the property from William B. Twitchell to John H. and Bridget McGrath, friends of Father Kelly and last intermediaries in the transaction" (Fitzgerald, 29)

With the forming of the Vicariate of Colorado-Utah in 1868, Fr. Kelly was recalled to San Francisco, before a church could be built. It wouldn't be until November 1871, with the SL Tribune reporting that "...the entire cost of [the church] when finished, with all the appurtenances, being estimated by the Father [Fr. Patrick Walsh] at $9,000." (Fitzgerald, 34]

Fr. Scanlan would later pay a remaining $6,000 of this $9,000. SLC was without a permanent priest from 1871 to 1874, when Fr. Lawrence Scanlan volunteered to serve in Utah. Coming from Ireland, once he arrived in the Utah Territory he never left it. He is infamous among Utah Catholics for the work he did in Utah and what was accomplished under him. He arrived in Utah with Fr. Denis Kiely, who worked by Bp. Scanlan for 40 years.

Fr. Scanlan set out to establish Catholicism in Salt Lake. He invited the Sisters of the Holy Cross to come to SLC within a year they had established an elementary, secondary and college for girls and St. Joseph's school for boys. They opened the Holy Cross Hospital. And that was just the beginning. All this required funding, which the small population of Catholic UT could not support.

"Financial assistance came to Father Scanlan through Archbishop Alemany from the Societe de la Propgation de la Foi." (Fitzgerald, 37)

"Much of the Catholic population throughout the territory was made up of immigrants of varied nationalities whose abject poverty had sent them westward from the east coast -- digging canals, going down into the mines, and laying endless miles of railroad tracks. In the outlying areas of Fr. Scanlan's district his parishioners were too few and too poor to support a resident priest. Noting the expense of visiting them, he confirmed that "seldom we get any or but little compensation." Even in Salt Lake City and Ogden, and the more prosperous mining camps, the Church's income was meager.

Fr. Scanlan had to be inventive: his fund-raising fair in Ogden grossed $2,600 and, between them both, Frs. Scanlan and Kiely sold $150 worth of tickets. For this and other events Fr. Scanlan himself kept careful records. To eliminate unnecessary expenditures, he supervised the construction of building projects in Salt Lake City as well as those in Ogden.

[....]

But despite frugality, the financial picture remained grim and prompted Abp. Alemany to write to the Propagation office on November 20, 1878:

"The actual condition of the mission of the Territory of Utah is still very sad and humanly doesn't announce much progress in the near future."

But by 1881 he felt encouraged:

The few zealous Priests and holy Sisters there are working hard and courageously in the work of propagating the Faith and the Kingdom of Christ, notwithstanding the many trying privations to which the are subjected."

Supplemental monies were now being received for the work in Utah from the Pious Fund. Through archbishop Alemany an amount of $124,080 came from the Pious Fund to aid the missionary efforts of Fr. Scanlan in Utah Territory. Jesuit Fathers Eusebius Kino and Juan Maria Silvatierra had established the fund in Spain to finance their missionary work in Lower California.

The Societe de la Propagaion de la Foi continued its support. The fund distributed $6,309,214 in the United States between the years 1822 and 1912." (Fitzgerald, 41-42)

"His [John Judge] wife, Mary, donated $10,000 to the cathedral in 1899 when ground was broken for its construction. She also provided its stained-glass transept windows. In memory of her husband she endowed Judge Mercy Home for Miners that became Judge Memorial Catholic School and bears the family name." (Fitzgerald, 44)

References:

"The Story of the Cathedral of the Madeleine", by Gary Topping, 2009

"Salt of the Earth: The History of the Catholic Church in Utah, 1776-2007", by Msgr. J. Terrence Fitzgerald, 2008

[saemo]

dup

Edited August 15, 2012 by saemo

[why me]

http://www.lds.org/e...of-god?lang=eng

What is relevant in the link:

More often, some have suggested that the Roman Catholic church might be the great and abominable church of Nephi 13. This is also untenable, primarily because Roman Catholicism as we know it did not yet exist when the crimes described by Nephi were being committed. In fact, the term Roman Catholic only makes sense after A.D. 1054 when it is used to distinguish the Western, Latin-speaking Orthodox church that followed the bishop of Rome from the Eastern, Greek-speaking Orthodox church that followed the bishop of Constantinople.

In the period between Peter and the Roman emperor Constantine, there were many Christian churches besides the Orthodox church: Ebionites, Syrian and Egyptian churches, Donatists, Gnostics, Marcionites, and so on. Even if we use the term Catholic for the church Constantine made the state religion in A.D. 313, the New Testament as we know it was already widely circulating. That is, the plain and precious parts had already been removed. The notion of shifty-eyed medieval monks rewriting the scriptures is unfair and bigoted. We owe those monks a debt of gratitude that anything was saved at all.

[why me]

OK then.

References:

"The Story of the Cathedral of the Madeleine", by Gary Topping, 2009

"Salt of the Earth: The History of the Catholic Church in Utah, 1776-2007", by Msgr. J. Terrence Fitzgerald, 2008

Okay, what was your point? If the lds church considered the catholic church the church of the devil, I don't think that the catholic church would have been allowed to have such leeway in salt lake. What I see in your above post is much business but no discrimination.

[blueadept]

Thanks for the reference.....I'll probably get the book

[saemo]

Okay, what was your point? If the lds church considered the catholic church the church of the devil, I don't think that the catholic church would have been allowed to have such leeway in salt lake. What I see in your above post is much business but no discrimination.

You must have me confused with someone else. I never said anything about the "church of the devil".

[saemo]

Thanks for the reference.....I'll probably get the book

"Salt of the Earth" is an excellent historical reference book, and interesting to boot. Msgr. Fitzgerald (the Priests call him Fitz) retired about a year or so ago. He was the Vicar at the Cathedral for many years.

[blueadept]

"Salt of the Earth" is an excellent historical reference book, and interesting to boot. Msgr. Fitzgerald (the Priests call him Fitz) retired about a year or so ago. He was the Vicar at the Cathedral for many years.

With your love of the Cathedral there, I'm not surprised you're familiar with the story of it. On a side note, I can't believe it's been 4 years since we met at Mass in SLC.

[why me]

You must have me confused with someone else. I never said anything about the "church of the devil".

I know. But I still don't see your point. The catholic church was helped by mormons to set up their church in Utah. Without that help and okay, it would not have happened. My point was simple: if the lds church considered the catholic church the church of the devil, it would not be having a cathedral on prime land in the center of salt lake not far from the temple.

I believe that the catholic church and the lds church had a special relationship in utah mainly because it was not the catholics who were burning mormons out of their homes in Nauvoo, Ohio and in Missouri.

they actually shared persecution by the protestant churches. Catholics and mormons had a special understanding.

Edited August 15, 2012 by why me

[blueadept]

I know. But I still don't see your point. The catholic church was helped by mormons to set up their church in Utah. Without that help and okay, it would not have happened. My point was simple: if the lds church considered the catholic church the church of the devil, it would not be having a cathedral on prime land in the center of salt lake not far from the temple.

I believe that the catholic church and the lds church had a special relationship in utah mainly because it was not the catholics who were burning mormons out of their homes in Nauvoo, Ohio and in Missouri.

they actually shared persecution by the protestant churches. Catholics and mormons had a special understanding.

I believe that the point is that LDS are trying to take more credit for the presence of the Catholic Church in Utah than should be taken and that the story that saemo has shared and referenced tends to support.

Just my 2 cents

[Storm Rider]

3DOP and Saemo, I think you are correct in one sense and may be missing Why's intention.

The LDS Church and LDS in general did not build or cause to be built the Cathedral in Salt Lake City. It was built by the faithful at great sacrifice and has been maintained by the faithful since its construction. However, the allegation that the LDS Church believed or believed that the Catholic Church is the church of the devil must be seen for the falsehood it is. If BY believed the Catholic Church was the church of the devil, would he or any other LDS provided any support? Of course not. All LDS would have done all they could to destroy such a church. The mere fact that the Catholic Church was built, did receive support of BY, and has since received support by LDS is sufficient evidence for Catholics to know that the LDS Church holds a favorable disposition toward it.

What is also suprising is that there was not a wholesale protest when the Catholic Church was initially built. There is no record, to my knowledge, of LDS protesting in the streets about this new church in the area. The relationship has not been antagonistic as far as the LDS Church has been concerned.