A Mormon And A Catholic

[Calm]

OK then.

Well first off, most people tie this legend of Brigham Young to the Cathedral, which isn't possible because Young died before the Cathedral property was purchased.

"The two of them [bp. Scanlan and Fr. Kiely] traveled a circuit by carriage or stagecoach at least monthly from Park City to Bingham Canyon, Mercur, Stockton and Ophir. The people who flowed into Utah to work those mines and the wealth the produced made possible the development of the Church in Utah. As the fortunes of people like Thomas Kearns, John J. Daly, and John and Mary Judge changed from poverty to wealth, their mansions slowly rose up along South Temple and other elegant districts. Some of their signatures remain beneath stained-glass windows they donated to the Cathedral" (Topping 7)

So, the only other Catholic church prior to the cathedral in SLC was the "Old St. Mary's" church. Brigham Young arbitrated a dispute over the title of the land purchased for this church. That is the extent of his involvement...

"Old St. Mary's, although a majestic yellow brick structure that towered above its neighbors, had been designed for a Catholic population of barely two dozen people, and had already become inadequate. On February 25, 1890, supported by the new silver wealth within the Catholic community, Bishop Scanlan purchased Lot 2, Block 12, Plat D in Salt Lake City, the property on which the Cathedral of the Madeleine and rectory now stand, from Sarah M. McKibben for $35,000. On March 24, Lot 3, where the north parking lot is now located, was purchased from Lorenzo D. Young for $14,500 by warranty deed." (Topping 10)

"The first permanent Catholic presence in Utah came in the form of Father Edward Kelly, who was sent to Salt Lake City in 1866 by Archbishop Joseph Sadoc Alemany of San Francisco. On November 6 of that year, Kelly purchased a small adobe building and a lot on the west side of Second East between South Temple and First South. Kelly was apparently assisted in the purchase the the Catholic people of the city, who bonded themselves $2,899, a sum which included funds to enlarge the building, which Father Kelly intended to use as a school as well as a church. Unfortunately, Kelly learned that the title to the property was flawed, and the resolution of the matter involved the first contact between the Catholic church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS). Kelly asserted that "he wanted no legal proceedings; that he bought the property in good faith, and had paid the market price for it," according to Father Denis Kiely, who wrote the first history of the diocese in 1900. Kelly and his opponent agreed to submit the matter to Brigham Young for arbitration, and the LDS president ruled in favor the Catholic" (Topping 3)

"On June 4, 1866, an option had been taken on a lot on which to build the first Catholic church building in Utah. The population of the city at the time was 17,000. The property selected for the new church was in a neighborhood of prominent Mormons, including Joseph Young and A.M. Musser. Hosea Stout lived across the street and directly across stood Wells Fargo Company. Friends of Father Kelly also lived nearby -- the John Adams, the Thomas Marshalls, and the Edward Connors. A block away was the Salt Lake Theater and across the street from it the City Hall; and through the block, a social hall. It was a central location, and the little piece of properly, 50 by 165 feet, was not cheap. It cost $2,300. On August 2nd the option was exercised in the names of Thomas Marshall and John Adams. But William B. Twitchell, the seller, did not have a clear title from the man who originally sold him the property, Joseph B. Nobles.

On Monday, September 3, 1866, the Union Vedette noted that Father Kelly was en route to Salt Lake City. Upon his return he faced the problem of clearing the property title. With characteristic forthrightness, he went directly to Brigham Young to arbitrate the conflict, and the ruling was made in Father Kelly's favor" (Fitzgerald, 28-29)

"He [Father Kelly] thanked contributors publicly and announced his intention to solicit donations in adjoining states and territories. On September 27 he announced the purchase of the lot on which to build a church in Salt Lake City as soon as practicable. On September 21, 1866, a deed had been filed in the Salt Lake County Recorder's office transferring the property from William B. Twitchell to John H. and Bridget McGrath, friends of Father Kelly and last intermediaries in the transaction" (Fitzgerald, 29)

With the forming of the Vicariate of Colorado-Utah in 1868, Fr. Kelly was recalled to San Francisco, before a church could be built. It wouldn't be until November 1871, with the SL Tribune reporting that "...the entire cost of [the church] when finished, with all the appurtenances, being estimated by the Father [Fr. Patrick Walsh] at $9,000." (Fitzgerald, 34]

Fr. Scanlan would later pay a remaining $6,000 of this $9,000. SLC was without a permanent priest from 1871 to 1874, when Fr. Lawrence Scanlan volunteered to serve in Utah. Coming from Ireland, once he arrived in the Utah Territory he never left it. He is infamous among Utah Catholics for the work he did in Utah and what was accomplished under him. He arrived in Utah with Fr. Denis Kiely, who worked by Bp. Scanlan for 40 years.

Fr. Scanlan set out to establish Catholicism in Salt Lake. He invited the Sisters of the Holy Cross to come to SLC within a year they had established an elementary, secondary and college for girls and St. Joseph's school for boys. They opened the Holy Cross Hospital. And that was just the beginning. All this required funding, which the small population of Catholic UT could not support.

"Financial assistance came to Father Scanlan through Archbishop Alemany from the Societe de la Propgation de la Foi." (Fitzgerald, 37)

"Much of the Catholic population throughout the territory was made up of immigrants of varied nationalities whose abject poverty had sent them westward from the east coast -- digging canals, going down into the mines, and laying endless miles of railroad tracks. In the outlying areas of Fr. Scanlan's district his parishioners were too few and too poor to support a resident priest. Noting the expense of visiting them, he confirmed that "seldom we get any or but little compensation." Even in Salt Lake City and Ogden, and the more prosperous mining camps, the Church's income was meager.

Fr. Scanlan had to be inventive: his fund-raising fair in Ogden grossed $2,600 and, between them both, Frs. Scanlan and Kiely sold $150 worth of tickets. For this and other events Fr. Scanlan himself kept careful records. To eliminate unnecessary expenditures, he supervised the construction of building projects in Salt Lake City as well as those in Ogden.

[....]

But despite frugality, the financial picture remained grim and prompted Abp. Alemany to write to the Propagation office on November 20, 1878:

"The actual condition of the mission of the Territory of Utah is still very sad and humanly doesn't announce much progress in the near future."

But by 1881 he felt encouraged:

The few zealous Priests and holy Sisters there are working hard and courageously in the work of propagating the Faith and the Kingdom of Christ, notwithstanding the many trying privations to which the are subjected."

Supplemental monies were now being received for the work in Utah from the Pious Fund. Through archbishop Alemany an amount of $124,080 came from the Pious Fund to aid the missionary efforts of Fr. Scanlan in Utah Territory. Jesuit Fathers Eusebius Kino and Juan Maria Silvatierra had established the fund in Spain to finance their missionary work in Lower California.

The Societe de la Propagaion de la Foi continued its support. The fund distributed $6,309,214 in the United States between the years 1822 and 1912." (Fitzgerald, 41-42)

"His [John Judge] wife, Mary, donated $10,000 to the cathedral in 1899 when ground was broken for its construction. She also provided its stained-glass transept windows. In memory of her husband she endowed Judge Mercy Home for Miners that became Judge Memorial Catholic School and bears the family name." (Fitzgerald, 44)

References:

"The Story of the Cathedral of the Madeleine", by Gary Topping, 2009

"Salt of the Earth: The History of the Catholic Church in Utah, 1776-2007", by Msgr. J. Terrence Fitzgerald, 2008

Thank you, very interesting.

[Calm]

Okay, what was your point?

It was, I believe, simply being kind enough to supply me with more information that I had asked for....job well done, tool

[Calm]

The catholic church was helped by mormons to set up their church in Utah. Without that help and okay, it would not have happened.

I highly doubt that. All they would have had to do was find another spot....perhaps not as nice...but one whose title was not tied up in legal issues. BY did a bit of untangling, but all the rest was the Catholics themselves.

LDS did welcome Catholics in other ways as was listed in the article I posted where choirs helped by singing mass in Latin and such things.

[Calm]

The anti-catholic feeling must have snuck into the church culture later on, I vaguely remember hearing that Pres. McKay was initially anti-catholic but softened his stance greatly over the years to the point he had anti-catholic comments removed from BRM's Mormon Doctrine's first issue.

Maybe Mike the Cross Guy has more info on when such feelings crept into the Church (perhaps with a set of immigrants from areas with strong Catholic or anti-Catholic feelings?

[Calm]

Granted that the LDS were apparently more receptive to Catholics in Utah than some other faiths were in other states, but if Catholicism could thrive in those harsh conditions, they certainly didn't need our help to thrive in the relatively benign conditions of Utah. (I am hoping that such conditions were the norm even with the hopefully brief popularity of the horrible teaching that the RCC was the Church of the Devil. I don't think any claim making LDS assistance to the Catholics in building up their faith community as more than just being a hopefully friendly neighbour is realistic. And anyone who makes that claim really should provide documentation.

There is a story here that few Catholics and Latter-day Saints know.By the late 1860s, Mormon isolation in Utah was ending. Jewish merchants and businessmen arrived, for instance, as early as 1854. Strong Jewish-Mormon friendships grew, and Brigham Young more than once opened Mormon church buildings to Jewish religious services. In their turn, Catholics first came to Utah in 1862, as members of the California Volunteers. In 1866, when Father Edward Kelly sought a place to celebrate Mass, Mormon leaders permitted him to use the old tabernacle on today's Temple Square, and Brigham Young helped him to obtain clear title to land for the first Catholic church in the city. On May 10, 1869, the Union and Central Pacific Railroads met at Promontory Summit, not far from Brigham City, Utah, thus creating the first transcontinental railroad in American history and, with this, non-Mormon denominations began to establish themselves even more securely in Utah Territory. Though Catholics and Latter-day Saints differed theologically, they were generally friendly with one another. Thus, for example, not long after then-Father Scanlan arrived in Utah in 1873, he was invited by Mormon leaders in St. George, Utah, to use their tabernacle for worship. However, he feared that some of the liturgy would need to be omitted since it called for a choir singing in Latin. But he was soon surprised to discover that the director of the St. George Tabernacle's choir had ordered the appropriate music and was preparing his group to perform it, in Latin, in two weeks. Accordingly, on May 18,1873 a Catholic high Mass was sung by a Mormon choir in the St. George Tabernacle. Plainly, although none can deny some harsh rhetoric over the years, Mormon respect for Catholics long predates the 2009 centennial of the Cathedral of the Madeleine. In fact, it dates to the days of Joseph Smith himself. Referring to the mob burning of the Ursuline Convent near Boston in 1834, Joseph remarked:"The early settlers of Boston . . . who had fled from their mother country to avoid persecution and death, soon became so lost to principles of justice and religious liberty as to whip and hang the Baptist and the Quaker, who, like themselves, had fled from tyranny to a land of freedom; and the Fathers of Salem, from 1691 to 1693, whipped, imprisoned, tortured, and hung many of their citizens for supposed witchcraft; and quite recently, while boasting of her light and knowledge, of her laws and religion, as surpassed by none on earth, has New England been guilty of burning a Catholic convent in the vicinity of Charlestown, and of scattering the inmates to the four winds; yes, in sight of the very spot where the fire of the American Independence was first kindled, where a monument is now erecting in memory of the battle of Bunker Hill, and the fate of the immortal Warren, who bled, who died on those sacred heights, to purchase religious liberty for his country; in sight of this very spot, have the religionists of the nineteenth century demolished a noble brick edifice, hurling its inhabitants forth upon a cold, unfeeling world for protection and subsistence.""The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said," Joseph told his followers in a sermon delivered less than two weeks before he himself was murdered by a mob. A strong foundation for friendship and respect toward Catholics was laid down in the earliest years of Mormonism.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705377107/Mormon-Catholic-tolerance-goes-back-to-Brigham-Young.html?pg=all

[Calm]

With your love of the Cathedral there, I'm not surprised you're familiar with the story of it. On a side note, I can't believe it's been 4 years since we met at Mass in SLC.

I have never been to Mass in SLC....hint hint....

[saemo]

I have never been to Mass in SLC....hint hint....

Well blueadept and yourself are welcome to Mass in SLC anytime. I'm at the Cathedral every Sunday, 11AM, unless I'm out of town. Some Sundays one of our dcns provides a tour of the Cathedral after Mass. Today is the solemnity for the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, a holy day of obligation. I'll be at the 6PM Mass this evening. The choir will be singing, after having been on summer break, they're back! You can just show up but if you need the support of a Catholic, just pm me.

[saemo]

The anti-catholic feeling must have snuck into the church culture later on, I vaguely remember hearing that Pres. McKay was initially anti-catholic but softened his stance greatly over the years to the point he had anti-catholic comments removed from BRM's Mormon Doctrine's first issue.

Maybe Mike the Cross Guy has more info on when such feelings crept into the Church (perhaps with a set of immigrants from areas with strong Catholic or anti-Catholic feelings?

I think it is always there, and always has been, among some LDS. I run across it on the internet, still, now and then. I'm convinced Mormon anti-Catholicism comes from 19th century American Protestant influence. As you already pointed out, "religious freedom" so often emphasized in American schools leaves out the small fact that Catholics were banned in most of the colonies. Maryland was the Catholic colony. Baltimore is the center of American Catholicism still today. American Protestants had (and in some areas still have) very strong anti-Catholic sentiments.

But whatever! I'm over it. I don't think it is accurate to stereotype LDS individuals as hyper anti-Catholic or hyper pro-Catholic. Everyone has their own background and experience. Seems to me as a "Mormon society" it waxed and waned with the anti-Catholicism of the U.S. It peaked in U.S. during the large immigration of Irish Catholics, which correlates to the same time period that anti-Catholicism among LDS Church leaders became more outspoken. Anti-Catholicism has had a smaller peak more recently with the large immigration of Latino Catholics from the south. It is what it is. You can't make people like you.

Edited August 15, 2012 by saemo

[mfbukowski]

Maybe Mike the Cross Guy has more info on when such feelings crept into the Church (perhaps with a set of immigrants from areas with strong Catholic or anti-Catholic feelings?

I don't find him particularly cross at all. In fact he is usually rather pleasant.

[why me]

Granted that the LDS were apparently more receptive to Catholics in Utah than some other faiths were in other states, but if Catholicism could thrive in those harsh conditions, they certainly didn't need our help to thrive in the relatively benign conditions of Utah. (I am hoping that such conditions were the norm even with the hopefully brief popularity of the horrible teaching that the RCC was the Church of the Devil. I don't think any claim making LDS assistance to the Catholics in building up their faith community as more than just being a hopefully friendly neighbour is realistic. And anyone who makes that claim really should provide documentation.

http://www.deseretne...ung.html?pg=all

Let me try this again. On the catholic boards they never tire of telling people that the mormons consider the catholic church the great and abominable church. They do this to influence the catholics against the mormons. And to have the catholics avoid the missionaries. And they certainly needed mormon help to thrive. They had choice land and respect. Both allowed them to thrive.

[why me]

I think it is always there, and always has been, among some LDS. I run across it on the internet, still, now and then. I'm convinced Mormon anti-Catholicism comes from 19th century American Protestant influence.

Can you please explain to me how mormon anticatholicism with its protestant influence allowed the cathedral to be placed on choice land in salt lake city? And how catholics were always treated with respect in salt lake?

[Calm]

And they certainly needed mormon help to thrive.

I doubt that. I think they could have thrived all by their own efforts. Would be more enjoyable not to have to deal with abusive neighbours, but Catholics...like LDS...have managed to thrive in the US even when surrounded by those who dislike them.

That it was nice to have positive interactions rather than nasty ones, yes, that is good and yes, those who claim that it is LDS doctrine that the RCC is the GandA are wrong....but that doesn't automatically translate into LDS being necessary to Catholics...even in Utah.

Edited August 15, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Can you please explain to me how mormon anticatholicism with its protestant influence allowed the cathedral to be placed on choice land in salt lake city? And how catholics were always treated with respect in salt lake?

The Catholics bought the land themselves with their own money, not from the city but from a private owner. What would you suggest could have been done to stop them?

And I am not sure you can claim they were always treated with respect in SLC. Certainly there was some anti-catholic sentiment floating around in the Church for awhile. I don't think there are 'measures' of it out there, but to assume that they were always treated with respect when we have, for example, BRM having to be corrected for having equated the RCC with the Church of the Devil in the first edition of Mormon Doctrine is overly optimistic.

Here is some info about anti-Catholicism in Utah (thankfully not by LDS): http://www.media.utah.edu/UHE/k/KKK.html

March 13

Salt Lake City, UT – A bronze statue of St. Ambrose, valued at $30,000, was ripped from its concrete pedestal and stolen from St. Ambrose Church.

http://www.catholicl.../miscellaneous/

A blog that discusses some aspects of anti-catholicism that have been found in the past among LDS:

http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/12/04/is-mormonism-anti-catholic/

Edited August 15, 2012 by calmoriah

[why me]

The Catholics bought the land themselves with their own money, not from the city but from a private owner. What would you suggest could have been done to stop them?

Well, Cal, if the mormons considered the catholic church the church of the devil they could have done what the protestants did to them: burn them out. See my point? The point is: mormons had no problem with the catholic church. And that was my point with the OP.

[why me]

I'm sure my overall topic has been hashed out many times but I have a question for the board. In light of this older news press article from the church on the White Horse Prophecy why do church members and leaders still perpetrate this doctrine from the pulpit? If this is not doctrine shouldn't the leaders of the church be instructed to ensure its teaching is not taught to church members?

Also, in light of a Mormon/Catholic presidential ticket do you think the Church will put out a press release repudiating this issue saying that according to Mormon Doctrine and teachings the Catholic Church is not the Church of the Devil, The Mother of All Harlots, and the Whore of all the Earth?

During his forum address at Brigham Young University on Feb. 23, Francis Cardinal George, head of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, mentioned last year's participation by President Thomas S. Monson and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in the centennial celebrations for Salt Lake City's Catholic Cathedral of the Madeleine. He wondered aloud whether Brigham Young and Lawrence Scanlan, the first Catholic bishop of Utah, would have been shocked at such cordial relations.The relationship between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Catholic Church has obviously grown closer during recent decades, and not merely in Utah. The two churches increasingly work together on social issues, for example, and have long cooperated on humanitarian projects. But I suspect that President Young and Bishop Scanlan would have been less shocked than Cardinal George assumed. There is a story here that few Catholics and Latter-day Saints know.By the late 1860s, Mormon isolation in Utah was ending. Jewish merchants and businessmen arrived, for instance, as early as 1854. Strong Jewish-Mormon friendships grew, and Brigham Young more than once opened Mormon church buildings to Jewish religious services. In their turn, Catholics first came to Utah in 1862, as members of the California Volunteers. In 1866, when Father Edward Kelly sought a place to celebrate Mass, Mormon leaders permitted him to use the old tabernacle on today's Temple Square, and Brigham Young helped him to obtain clear title to land for the first Catholic church in the city. On May 10, 1869, the Union and Central Pacific Railroads met at Promontory Summit, not far from Brigham City, Utah, thus creating the first transcontinental railroad in American history and, with this, non-Mormon denominations began to establish themselves even more securely in Utah Territory. Though Catholics and Latter-day Saints differed theologically, they were generally friendly with one another. Thus, for example, not long after then-Father Scanlan arrived in Utah in 1873, he was invited by Mormon leaders in St. George, Utah, to use their tabernacle for worship. However, he feared that some of the liturgy would need to be omitted since it called for a choir singing in Latin. But he was soon surprised to discover that the director of the St. George Tabernacle's choir had ordered the appropriate music and was preparing his group to perform it, in Latin, in two weeks. Accordingly, on May 18,1873 a Catholic high Mass was sung by a Mormon choir in the St. George Tabernacle. Plainly, although none can deny some harsh rhetoric over the years, Mormon respect for Catholics long predates the 2009 centennial of the Cathedral of the Madeleine. In fact, it dates to the days of Joseph Smith himself. Referring to the mob burning of the Ursuline Convent near Boston in 1834, Joseph remarked:"The early settlers of Boston . . . who had fled from their mother country to avoid persecution and death, soon became so lost to principles of justice and religious liberty as to whip and hang the Baptist and the Quaker, who, like themselves, had fled from tyranny to a land of freedom; and the Fathers of Salem, from 1691 to 1693, whipped, imprisoned, tortured, and hung many of their citizens for supposed witchcraft; and quite recently, while boasting of her light and knowledge, of her laws and religion, as surpassed by none on earth, has New England been guilty of burning a Catholic convent in the vicinity of Charlestown, and of scattering the inmates to the four winds; yes, in sight of the very spot where the fire of the American Independence was first kindled, where a monument is now erecting in memory of the battle of Bunker Hill, and the fate of the immortal Warren, who bled, who died on those sacred heights, to purchase religious liberty for his country; in sight of this very spot, have the religionists of the nineteenth century demolished a noble brick edifice, hurling its inhabitants forth upon a cold, unfeeling world for protection and subsistence.""The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said," Joseph told his followers in a sermon delivered less than two weeks before he himself was murdered by a mob. A strong foundation for friendship and respect toward Catholics was laid down in the earliest years of Mormonism.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705377107/Mormon-Catholic-tolerance-goes-back-to-Brigham-Young.html?pg=all

I see no history that the mormon church considered the catholic church of the devil. But I do see respect.

[why me]

And I am not sure you can claim they were always treated with respect in SLC. Certainly there was some anti-catholic sentiment floating around in the Church for awhile. I don't think there are 'measures' of it out there, but to assume that they were always treated with respect when we have, for example, BRM having to be corrected for having equated the RCC with the Church of the Devil in the first edition of Mormon Doctrine is overly optimistic.

First, a catholic would consider joseph as author of the book of mormon and as such, he wrote the great abominable church segment which is claimed by some catholics to be the catholic church. However, when looking at the early history of mormonism we see no hatred by the lds leaders toward the catholic church. And certainly if they considered that church the church of the devil, such good relations would be difficult.

[Calm]

Well, Cal, if the mormons considered the catholic church the church of the devil they could have done what the protestants did to them: burn them out. See my point? The point is: mormons had no problem with the catholic church. And that was my point with the OP.

And my point is that there just as there is a difference between being neutral and being positive toward someone, there is a difference between getting help that one doesn't need, getting help that one does need or not getting help at all. Catholics stood on their own feet when they came to Utah, there is no need to diminish what they accomplished in an attempt to make LDS look better by claiming that Catholics needed LDS help to thrive when there is no evidence that they needed that help. All they needed was noninterference (and since they had managed to thrive in other places where they have been targeted, even noninterference may not have been true...perhaps the same rules apply to Catholics as to LDS where, I believe it was BY who stated something along the lines of 'when we get kicked, we get kicked 'up'' or IOW opposition can be a cause of thriving in some cases.

And unfortunately some Mormons did have problems with the RCC, such as James Talmage (see the link I posted) though he made not have acted on his bigotry.

[Calm]

First, a catholic would consider joseph as author of the book of mormon and as such, he wrote the great abominable church segment which is claimed by some catholics to be the catholic church. However, when looking at the early history of mormonism we see no hatred by the lds leaders toward the catholic church. And certainly if they considered that church the church of the devil, such good relations would be difficult.

Define "early".

[saemo]

Can you please explain to me how mormon anticatholicism with its protestant influence allowed the cathedral to be placed on choice land in salt lake city? And how catholics were always treated with respect in salt lake?

I think you have an idea the Catholics in Utah asked the Mormons for permission to be in Utah. They didn't.

[why me]

I think you have an idea the Catholics in Utah asked the Mormons for permission to be in Utah. They didn't.

Neither did the mormons request permission from the protestants to move into an area. But that didn't stop them from burning out the mormons and chasing them from state to state. Can you see the difference between how the mormons in missouri with treated and how the catholics were treated in utah? The catholics certainly weren't treated as if they were the church of the devil. But they were welcomed. And allowed to build a cathedral without threats of burnings and hostility.

[why me]

Define "early".

As in the article I linked to.

[altersteve]

I think you have an idea the Catholics in Utah asked the Mormons for permission to be in Utah. They didn't.

Sorry, but why me never claimed that. His point is simply that the Catholics were welcomed with open arms and treated with respect early on in Utah's history, as they are now. That was a big part of Brigham Young's teachings. He was really big on being respectful to others, regardless of theological or cultural differences, which is one reason why he played such a crucial role in our Church's history.

[Bart Burk]

If they kicked all of the Mormons off the Notre Dame football team for being Mormon, ND wouldn't have a prayer this year.

[Pahoran]

And unfortunately some Mormons did have problems with the RCC, such as James Talmage (see the link I posted) though he made not have acted on his bigotry.

Hey, let's throw Elder Talmage under the bus; after all, he's safely dead.

He displayed no "bigotry."

Regards,

Pahoran

[Calm]

If you think his portrayal of the RCC was a fair and accurate one, I will have to disagree with you. He was a gracious man from what I know about him and generally a great scholar, if he was alive today I don't think he would mind me holding this opinion of his portrayal of the RCC in Jesus the Christ as I believe he would have changed his mind based on having learned of more accurate historical information.

Edited August 16, 2012 by calmoriah