Van Hale - Book Of Mormon Historicity

[DBMormon]

I was listening today to his program. the episode where he has Simon Southerton on. Van, who I find to be a giant defender of the restoration seems to say that he doesn't believe the Book of Mormon's historicity is valid

Caller: OK. Well, as far as, as far as everything that happened in the Book of Mormon actually being a true account, like the Lamanites and Nephites and Captain Moroni and the Savior coming to the Americas, you don't exactly believe that those events took place?

Van Hale: I'm not persuaded that the Book of Mormon is a translation of an ancient history.

Caller: And as far as the Savior appearing to the people in America, you just don't believe that actually happened. It was just a written story I guess.

Van Hale: Well, it's... Yes. Uh, the, the situation that I see in the Book of Mormon, if you want to talk in a broad way, yes. The Book of Mormon is a history. There were ancient people, there were people living on the Americas. They came from somewhere. They had religious beliefs. They had wars. They had, they built buildings. They, some of them were quite advanced, surprisingly advanced, as we discover from some of their architecture and so forth and so in a broad sense you could say yes. The Book of Mormon is a history. But when you start talking about detail, I am not persuaded that the detail in the Book of Mormon is detail pertaining to people that anciently lived on the Americas.

Caller: How do you really explain the fact that Joseph Smith obtained gold plates that I guess had an ancient record on them but, I mean, was that just a record that God wrote there and then Joseph Smith just happened to go to the same hill where the angel Moroni or the prophet Moroni, who buried them there in the hill, Joseph Smith just happened to go to that same hill where these plates were found that God supposedly wrote as a story? Or could it actually just, you know, the fact remain that it was an actual true event and this stuff actually took place and, you know, so I don't know, what's your opinion on that?

Van Hale: Well, my point of view regarding the plates is that the plates did exist, that they were delivered to Joseph Smith by an angel and they were shown to witnesses of the Book of Mormon and that gave them something tangible to testify about, that they had seen the plates and handled them but I don't think that Joseph Smith was, that the Book of Mormon relates to anything that was on the plates. It was, I don't know what word to use to, without, without it sounding crude, but uh, the only word I can think of is the idea of a prop.

http://www.i4m.com/think/leaders/van_hale_transcript.htm

Am I to understand that he has a testimony that the gospel is all it says it is, it is the restored church, and that the Book of Mormon while divine is not really what it says it is nor does it come to us as it is said to?

I am confused.... Help me

[DBMormon]

There is room for Latter Day Saints to believe that the Book of Mormon is an authentic divinely inspired book of scripture without making a commitment that it is a um… a translation of ancient history. And that's where I find myself.

Another quote of his... Doesn't seem rational to me... I know I know how can the option of going down the rabbit hole and believing the whole story be any more rational? It just seems some try to have one foot in both philosophies/belief systems... how does this work?

How can the Book of Mormon not be what it says it is and yet still be what it says it is?

Edited August 5, 2012 by DBMormon

[blackstrap]

Sounds alot like the Nicean creed statements.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Yes I think that Van Hale does not believe in the Book of Mormon as actual ancient history, but an inspired book nonetheless...... kinda interesting no?

[daz2]

Can a person believe that the book of Job (or the parable of the prodigal son) are authentic divinely inspired scripture while being open to their being metanarratives rather than accurate histories of actual events?

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Can a person believe that the book of Job (or the parable of the prodigal son) are authentic divinely inspired scripture while being open to their being metanarratives rather than accurate histories of actual events?

Sure....... I mean after all even the parables of Jesus do not have to have actually historically happened in order for them to have teaching value. The truth of the Good Samaritan does not hang on whether we find the skeleton or not.

[blackstrap]

If only the BoM had started out ," A long ,long time ago , in a galaxy far ,far away....."

[Glenn101]

It doesn't matter what Van Hale believes. He is not the one who really knows. Nor am I, nor Daniel Peterson, or Kevin Barney, or Kerry Shirts, just to name a few.

For the answers, we have to find someone who really knows. I still vote for the Holy Ghost.

Glenn

[cesc101]

In the end thereof, all that matters is that we have some kind of "faith" in the BofM.

Personally, I think I can rationalize a whole lot of things - so long as they're within the framework, and they help me remain active in church. I believe that could work for anybody, as long as he/she does come teach that in a church setting.

[Robert F. Smith]

I was listening today to his program. the episode where he has Simon Southerton on. Van, who I find to be a giant defender of the restoration seems to say that he doesn't believe the Book of Mormon's historicity is valid

http://www.i4m.com/t..._transcript.htm

Am I to understand that he has a testimony that the gospel is all it says it is, it is the restored church, and that the Book of Mormon while divine is not really what it says it is nor does it come to us as it is said to?

I am confused.... Help me

No need to be confused. A number of people mistakenly believe that the Book of Mormon is not historically authentic. Same for the Bible and many another holy book, except that in those latter cases some people deny the miraculous or divine events described.

Miraculous events, by their very nature, are nearly impossible to prove and require faith for belief. This faith can be acquired through the witness of the Spirit, or it can come via careful study and reflection on scientific data -- a matter of assessing the probabilities, if you will. In the case of the Bible, this means that the Bible can never be proved by ordinary material and logical means, even though the ordinary biblical events (known from secular records) and their actual locations are fairly well known.

Since the Book of Mormon has no direct, ordinary connection with the ancient world (no plates or other divine artifacts), it sometimes seems silly to believe such as preposterous story as told by Joseph Smith about gold plates, a young boy, and a dead angel. The implausibility of it seems primary, leading some to doubt its authenticity. In fact, however, the internal evidence of Book of Mormon authenticity is quite strong, and correspondences with the archeological world of ancient Mesoamerica and with the ancient Near East are broad and deep enough to provide convincing belief that the Book of Mormon is historically true. In such a case, probable cause and a sufficiency of data lead to effective proof that the Book of Mormon is historically authentic. Precisely because the BofM seems so implausible, it is far more likely to be authentic than the Bible. That is because we have received the Bible by entirely ordinary means of transmission, and that cannot justify an a priori belief in the historical authenticity of its miracles. The same applies to the Iliad and the Odyssey.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Robert F. Smith

[CASteinman]

Am I to understand that he has a testimony that the gospel is all it says it is, it is the restored church, and that the Book of Mormon while divine is not really what it says it is nor does it come to us as it is said to?

I am confused.... Help me

I don't think there is any requirement in the Church that we must believe that it is literally a history -- only that it was produced honestly by the Gift and Power of God by Joseph Smith who was a prophet.

Van Hale is not the first person to present this idea.

But I consider it a silly perspective. It makes no sense to me.

Incidentally Van Hale is not a prophet, not a general authority -- no one other than another member. No reason to consider his opinions as especially better than your own.

[Tacenda]

Another quote of his... Doesn't seem rational to me... I know I know how can the option of going down the rabbit hole and vbelieving the whole story be any more rational? It just seems some try to have one foot in both philosophies/belief systems... how does this work?

How can the Book of Mormon not be what it says it is and yet still be what it says it is?

The book does hold some kind of magic spell, whether it's in the minds of people or from God, people can get so much good out of it! Ever since my faith crisis it's the last to go. I get how it's maybe possble for JS to author it, but it 'd have to be some phenonomen he was born with to have solely written it. And just maybe he channeled it straight from God and made up the plates for it to seem more plausible for others to comprehend?

[Ron Beron]

Can a person believe that the book of Job (or the parable of the prodigal son) are authentic divinely inspired scripture while being open to their being metanarratives rather than accurate histories of actual events?

Since the Jews didn't necessarily think of them as actual historical events but metaphoric narratives that taught a broader principle then it certainly makes sense to see them as intrinsically inspired, but not historical. Even the Greeks didn't always see their myths as "true" but inspirationally "real".

[CASteinman]

And just maybe he channeled it straight from God and made up the plates for it to seem more plausible for others to comprehend?

But 12 people saw them and a few more than that felt them under wraps.

[Tacenda]

But 12 people saw them and a few more than that felt them under wraps.

I guess I'm still hung up on if it was with spiritual eyes or not. And that the plates were not, IMHO translated word for word like I was always taught to believe. My testimony of the BOM is still there it's just been altered and weakened because of new information that I was unaware of before.

[CASteinman]

I guess I'm still hung up on if it was with spiritual eyes or not.

You don't "Feel" with your eyes. Several people talked about feeling them through the cloth that wrapped them. Emma Smith talks about how she had to move them sometimes to clean and felt them. That was not because they were phantom plates that she had to imagine were there to show faith.

I would like to offer a slightly different idea about what has happened inside you. Just like Faith grows from a seed, so also doubt can cause it to die and can cast it out of our hearts.

That is the adversary's goal -- by any means possible - get you to cast out the seed of Faith.

There is an answer to this -- and it is not "ignore the truth". But it is going to sound a bit silly and shallow to you at this time, but here it is: Have Faith! Believe!

Remember when Peter walked on water and then lost his faith and sunk in? Still, even sinking in, he called to Christ -- Save me!

You can believe. I am sure of it. And Faith can heal your heart and mind. It will also defeat the adversary.

Edited August 5, 2012 by CASteinman

[Tacenda]

You don't "Feel" with your eyes. Several people talked about feeling them through the cloth that wrapped them. Emma Smith talks about how she had to move them sometimes to clean and felt them. That was not because they were phantom plates that she had to imagine were there to show faith.

I would like to offer a slightly different idea about what has happened inside you. Just like Faith grows from a seed, so also doubt can cause it to die and can cast it out of our hearts.

That is the adversary's goal -- by any means possible - get you to cast out the seed of Faith.

There is an answer to this -- and it is not "ignore the truth". But it is going to sound a bit silly and shallow to you at this time, but here it is: Have Faith! Believe!

Remember when Peter walked on water and then lost his faith and sunk in? Still, even sinking in, he called to Christ -- Save me!

You can believe. I am sure of it. And Faith can heal your heart and mind. It will also defeat the adversary.

Believe me when I say I have more faith in the last few months than in the last several years from the impact of those of you on MDDB. The fact that you do believe and have the faith even though you know all there is to know, warts & all, about the church. That's where faith to me, seems to really have to come into play!

[Calm]

Don't forget Mary Whitmer.

[DBMormon]

Can a person believe that the book of Job (or the parable of the prodigal son) are authentic divinely inspired scripture while being open to their being metanarratives rather than accurate histories of actual events?

But Job may have been written as metaphorical in the first place. We don't know the author's intention when he wrote it. And without knowing the author's original intention we are allowed to presume both God and the author are honest.

The Book of Mormon is different

Joseph told his father there were plates, he told everyone there were plates. He said he spoke to an angel. The title sheet of the book of mormon claims authenticity. If it is not literally what it says it is, then Boith Joseph and God have lied. If God has lied, he is not honest, if he is not honest I can not trust in him. If I can not trust in him then the gospel can not be assured to be what I have been told..... slippery slope, and This is why I feel one has to make his stand at the Book of Mormon. It is either what it claims to be or it is a fraud. Based on that decision one then has to sort out, the church then is either what it claims to be or it is a fraud.

I am trying to understand how one makes his stand on the restoration is true but God and Joseph lied about the Book of Mormon?

[Monster]

Problem that I see is that for years prophets and leaders have testified and declared it to be a literal translation of ancient records, of a group of people that inhabited the Americas. Now that evidence is mounting to tip the scales that it is not literal some are beginning to say that it is not important that it never happened. It is only important that we believe the BofM is inspired. So unlike parables in the bible which everyone understood to be just stories we were taught the BofM is literal. Hard to back away from that now that it is troublesome. Of course I think it is better to face reality than hold onto beliefs that are suspect.

I wonder if in 50 or 100 years if there will be any allusion to the BofM being literal, or more like a fable.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

If only the BoM had started out ," A long ,long time ago , in a galaxy far ,far away....."

Then we would have had Darth Lehi.....

Edited August 6, 2012 by Kerry A. Shirts

[ERayR]

Problem that I see is that for years prophets and leaders have testified and declared it to be a literal translation of ancient records, of a group of people that inhabited the Americas. Now that evidence is mounting to tip the scales that it is not literal some are beginning to say that it is not important that it never happened. It is only important that we believe the BofM is inspired. So unlike parables in the bible which everyone understood to be just stories we were taught the BofM is literal. Hard to back away from that now that it is troublesome. Of course I think it is better to face reality than hold onto beliefs that are suspect.

I wonder if in 50 or 100 years if there will be any allusion to the BofM being literal, or more like a fable.

Evidence mounting up? Its your pipe dream go ahead and smoke it.

[altersteve]

I read the title of this thread quickly as I scrolled down the page and thought it said "Van Halen." I thought, why yes, I'm sure Van Halen has everything to do with Book of Mormon historicity.

[DBMormon]

Their music is deep man... real deep

[Cobalt-70]

I read the title of this thread quickly as I scrolled down the page and thought it said "Van Halen." I thought, why yes, I'm sure Van Halen has everything to do with Book of Mormon historicity.

Ah, yes. I remember their great hit, "Hot for Teancum."