inquiringmind Posted August 2, 2012 Posted August 2, 2012 Does 3 Nephi 14:14 mean that only a few will be exalted in the celestial kingdom?Because strait is the agate, and bnarrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and cfew there be that find it. (3 Nephi 14:14.)
CASteinman Posted August 2, 2012 Posted August 2, 2012 Certainly that is what is taught in Nephi. Jesus also seems to indicate that as well.
Buzzard Posted August 2, 2012 Posted August 2, 2012 Few as a percentage. But the absolute number will be quite high. You do have the statements by the bretheren that the great majority of temple work done will be accepted. Not much point in accepting the ordinances if you aren't goin' celestial.
SamIam Posted August 2, 2012 Posted August 2, 2012 Does 3 Nephi 14:14 mean that only a few will be exalted in the celestial kingdom?Because strait is the agate, and bnarrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and cfew there be that find it. (3 Nephi 14:14.)As this is the case, and it would appear that at least us 4 are in agreement that this is so, what is the "way" that is not found and how do we find it?
Maidservant Posted August 2, 2012 Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) Why don't we read it plainly?It says that few FIND the way to LIFE.It says nothing about the celestial kingdom.It says nothing about death, afterlife, exaltation or being saved.It does speak about a gate and way that is narrow and strait. Narrow and strait are more or less synonymous and speak of the difficulty of the passage.When one reads this one has questions, then.What is life? What does that mean? What does that look like? That would lead me to a great search of the scriptures in its entirety, a search of my heart and desires, and many consultations with my God as to what it means to him--what he could show me and help me to understand.So once I understand this LIFE and begin to hope on it, then the verse tells me that there is a challenging passage and journey in order to be able to experience this life. And then I ask myself what is that GATE and WHAT is that way? How do I begin? and How do I continue?As far as the few there be that find it, I would be thinking that the reason there are few is because the journey is so challenging, that many do not wish to begin or become weary on continuing. But also I'm wondering if the gate is found by few, or life found by few. I would guess the life, but maybe it doesn't matter that much. But my final thought would be--it doesn't matter about the few. It only matters about me. Am *I* willing to take this journey and follow it all the way through? The answer being YES, then "the few" has nothing to do with me.Now there may be a lot of information in the surrounding verses but if I am presented with this one liner, then that is how I approach it. Edited August 2, 2012 by Maidservant 1
The Nehor Posted August 2, 2012 Posted August 2, 2012 Let me add them up. Jesus made it. I am going to make it. There were a couple in the D&C vision that made it. Three dozen maybe. Does that sound about right?
swfarnsworth Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 Not much point in accepting the ordinances if you aren't goin' celestial.As I understand it, baptism is still a prerequisite for entering the Terrestrial Kingdom. That's a point, isn't it?
Calm Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 (edited) As I understand it, baptism is still a prerequisite for entering the Terrestrial Kingdom. That's a point, isn't it?CFR please.Celestial“They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized, … that by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit.” These are they who overcome the world by their faith. They are just and true so that the Holy Ghost can seal their blessings upon them. (See D&C 76:51–53.) Those who inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, who become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple (see D&C 131:1–4). All who inherit the celestial kingdom will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever (see D&C 76:62).Through the work we do in temples, all people who have lived on the earth can have an equal opportunity to receive the fulness of the gospel and the ordinances of salvation so they can inherit a place in the highest degree of celestial glory.TerrestrialThese are they who rejected the gospel on earth but afterward received it in the spirit world. These are the honorable people on the earth who were blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ by the craftiness of men. These are also they who received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant. They will be visited by Jesus Christ but not by our Heavenly Father. (See D&C 76:73–79.)No comment about baptism in the Terrestrial Kingdom.http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-46-the-final-judgment?lang=eng Edited August 3, 2012 by calmoriah
Freedom Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 The bar is a lot lower than many believe. Just consider how low the bar was to be considered on Gods side in the war in heaven. To me it is not so much of a pass or fail, but of an accept or reject. We are here to live the lifestyle of heaven. Ultimately, there may be some very good people who, in the end, do not enjoy such a way of life. They are not evil. There may also be many people we perceive to be evil who, given the right opportunity, may flourish in the highest kingdom. We do not know what others are here to achieve, we can only speak for ourselves. 3
swfarnsworth Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 No comment about baptism in the Terrestrial Kingdom.http://www.lds.org/m...dgment?lang=engThese are they who rejected the gospel on earth but afterward received it in the spirit world.As per the fourth article of faith, couldn't it be argued that one must be baptized for their acceptance of the Gospel to be complete?
Grundelwalken Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 As I understand it, baptism is still a prerequisite for entering the Terrestrial Kingdom. That's a point, isn't it?According to multiple sources, we know very little of the requirements for any kingdom except the Celestial. Many have speculated but there is no confirmation as to baptism and Terr. Glory.As to how many will be Celestial, it is Father's plan and Is therefore perfect. I don't think He would create something that would cost a majority of His children. I suspect (though with no more authority or knowledge than those who seem to know the requirements for other kingdoms) that God will recover a majority of His children from this existence. MW
SamIam Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 As I understand it, baptism is still a prerequisite for entering the Terrestrial Kingdom. That's a point, isn't it?Joseph Fielding Smith (Quorum of the Twelve)The Prophet says a man may enter into the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom who has not been baptized with water and who has not in this life received these ordinances, but he can never enter into the celestial kingdom without complying with these eternal laws.Each kingdom, of course, is governed by laws. We have nothing to do with the laws of the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms, so far as the preaching of the gospel is concerned. Our mission is to preach the salvation of the kingdom of God, where he and Christ dwell, which is the celestial kingdom. And all of the principles of the gospel which have been given unto us pertain to the celestial kingdom. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:25-26) 1
SamIam Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 The bar is a lot lower than many believe. Just consider how low the bar was to be considered on Gods side in the war in heaven. To me it is not so much of a pass or fail, but of an accept or reject. We are here to live the lifestyle of heaven. Ultimately, there may be some very good people who, in the end, do not enjoy such a way of life. They are not evil. There may also be many people we perceive to be evil who, given the right opportunity, may flourish in the highest kingdom. We do not know what others are here to achieve, we can only speak for ourselves.It's not so much that I am going to agree or disagree with this observation but that I think a different perspective might alter the overall picture a bit.Each estate is designed in such a way that it acts as a filter to weed out the various levels of spirit children that cannot abide the fullness of the law of the estate which follows the one in which they reside. If as you posit it is an accept or reject proposition, then whatever it is that we accept or reject is a perfect function that defines the capacity of the individual to overall abide the law of a particular type of eternal existence.For instance the preexistence was ordered in such a way, that whatever the threshold was to achieve the second estate, that threshold was able to filter out all of those spirits unable to abide the physical body requirement of living a telestial law of a telestial kingdom. Thus, based upon the conditions that were allowed to prevail the greater part of the sons of perdition identified themselves and thus failed to accommodate the minimum standards that were necessary for advancement to the next probationary level. The second estate is this telestial state in which we reside. One of the objectives of this estate is to weed out those that cannot abide the terrestrial estate of the millennium and the eternities. We know that the first part of the resurrection brings those who will be celestial rulers back into the picture as they can clearly abide a terrestrial law. However, we will not see the resurrection of the telestialites and terrestrialites until the end The conditions within the telestial estate are predicted upon telestial tolerances. The behaviors of men, even in the church, will represent behaviors that follow telestial tolerances but repentance enables rectification of permanent subjection to telestial laws. So the standards of this estate are perfectly matched with the process of separating the wheat from the tares, they provide opposing choices between good and evil. These conditions are according to the expectations of God the Father and Jesus Christ and thus fulfill the filtering criteria perfectly. However it is clear that baptism alone is an inadequate filter for solidifying ones claim on the celestial kingdom. Those that embrace the world and its ways are completely self filtering out of anything higher than a telestial existence. However, some may qualify for the token of acceptance into the celestial realms (baptism) but there needs be additional filtering conditions that separate the wheat from the tares. The whole principle of wheat and tares, or 5 of ten virgins that fail to have sufficient oil to sustain the light of their lamps is directly impacting only those that are members of the church. At least in one way the oil in the lamps is an analogy for the Holy Ghost. Thus a critical filter is the baptism of fire and the faith that endures to the end; since the baptism of fire really is a symbol of Christ granting a remission of sins Thus a perfect process will define those that exercise faith unto repentance from those that do not and this is a major tool primarily for cleansing the inner vessel that separates the wheat from the tares.Still at the same time a filtering process is in place that will enable some of those in the world, that do not embrace it's ways but are still some how lacking in certain skills that would prevent them from being deceived (perhaps simply lacking the baptism of fire which provides the Holy Ghost to strengthen one against deceptions). These will pass through the filters that bind one to a telestial estate, and provide a place in the terrestrial kingdom for their more appropriate characters.In the millennial condition the world is returned to its paradisaical glory, which Bruce McConkie defines as a terrestrial existence. There will still be some that will qualify for states of perdition, and some that will fall back to a telestial reward, but it will predominantly provide for the distinctions that separate those out that cannot abide the conditions of the kingdom that follows - the celestial kingdom. The only commentary on numbers to my knowledge is simply the Elder McConkie observations that while it will start as a blend of terrestrial and celestial inhabitants it will not be long before all are converted to the gospel. Thus there is still a need to filter those who accept the gospel in external behaviors while perhaps still lacking in a fullness of Celestial qualities.I guess what I am saying is that I am uncomfortable with saying "The bar is a lot lower than many believe. Just consider how low the bar was to be considered on Gods side in the war in heaven." One did not even need to be on God's side to make this estate as we know that a large number rejected the priesthood in the preexistence. Somehow, in the mix was simply that while obviously the sons of perdition rejected the priesthood they went one step further and completely dedicated themselves to actively rebelling against God and his kingdom. This behavior caused their rejection from a telestial existence. Ask a son of perdition that remained in the spirit and never received a body if the bar was low enough for him and he will absolutely claim the requirement was much too high. Ask those suited to only a telestial existence if the bar was low enough for them to get to celestial glory and they will absolutely claim it was much too high. It may seem low to some but so far in just those two kingdoms and their requirements it appears we may have lost the greater part of all of the spirit children of God that existed in the preexistence as a percentage of the whole. As well at this point, now that I have thought it out I am going to have to back pedal and reject the premise entirely. When you state, "To me it is not so much of a pass or fail, but of an accept or reject" I can see that one could reject God which I consider analogous to rejecting his priesthood or his authority if you will, but one could not reject and actively fight against him and pass forward to the second estate. This requirement remains, most of the world can reject God and still receive a telestial glory. However, cross a certain threshold of knowledge and then not only reject him but fight against him and you can at least warrant the right to rule over the unembodied of the sons of perdition. 1
Maidservant Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 I refuse to be "filtered". If that's why I am here on this planet, then I already cede the win to others and take my loss. I cede that I can do nothing, and Christ is the one with power and merit. I have nothing to prove, not to myself and not to God.I am here because I want to grow and become and I want my weaknesses to be refined out so that by my cleanness, kindness, honesty and sacred respect for other's agency and freedom that I never bring harm to any other being. I'm a long way from that, but that is my object for being here in the mortal plane. And my Father said he would help me to realize this potential, so I trusted that and chose to come here. And this reality, my potential will come by sacrifice, mine and Christ's.I will not GO to the celestial kingdom. I am already here, in one sense. And in another sense, I will continue to create it in any way that I have ability, strength and according to what my Father has placed in my hand.
Cobalt-70 Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 (edited) The gate to life is small, and the road is treacherous, and few find it on their own, which is why Jesus, the shepherd, committed himself to going after those lost many sheep who have wandered down the path of destruction. Ultimately, according to my read on Joseph Smith's gradually-more-universalistic theology, he will recover all his sheep except for those sons of perdition who absolutely don't want to be found. Edited August 3, 2012 by Cobalt-70
SamIam Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 (edited) I refuse to be "filtered". If that's why I am here on this planet, then I already cede the win to others and take my loss. I cede that I can do nothing, and Christ is the one with power and merit. I have nothing to prove, not to myself and not to God.I am here because I want to grow and become and I want my weaknesses to be refined out so that by my cleanness, kindness, honesty and sacred respect for other's agency and freedom that I never bring harm to any other being. I'm a long way from that, but that is my object for being here in the mortal plane. And my Father said he would help me to realize this potential, so I trusted that and chose to come here. And this reality, my potential will come by sacrifice, mine and Christ's.I will not GO to the celestial kingdom. I am already here, in one sense. And in another sense, I will continue to create it in any way that I have ability, strength and according to what my Father has placed in my hand.What is very helpful for me and I think valuable for you and I is when we can express our spiritual wants and desires in a way that makes them compatible with the scriptures and prophetic commentary that substantiates our observations, hopes and desires. That is the principle of a required gospel component called a second witness. There are several types of second witness but it is a compelling principle that is an imperative aspect of knowing and testifying of truth.As you express your self above it is difficult to weed out the subjectivity and ascertain if what you say has merit in terms of its compatibility with theological principles.As far as "filtering" that is simply my use of a term that captures the essence of what is completely and perfectly observable in the processes that are in play in the plan of salvation. If you prefer the term "sorting" or grouping or whatever I'm okay with anything along those lines that captures the process that is apparent is going on. There will be a group of people in each of he kingdoms and they will be there because they have a similar capacity to abide by the laws of that kingdom. Consider D & C 88 as one source that gives valuable insight into this observation.Your final thought of, "I will not GO to the celestial kingdom. I am already here, in one sense. And in another sense, I will continue to create it in any way that I have ability, strength and according to what my Father has placed in my hand" is again difficult to parse out. I do not understand the objective explanations of your use of the terms in "one sense" and in "another sense". I can pull together some ideas that may support what you are trying to say, but I'm not sure that does you any good in expanding your own knowledge base to ensure that your effort is not so focused on self will and is more focused on conforming to God's will. As well, the knee jerk reaction to being sorted, grouped, filtered or whatever seems less than considerate of a gospel perspective and more probably a personal revulsion to being talked about like just one more cow in a head of cattle.However, if you were to look up Bruce R. McConkies observation of how we develop our celestial body in this life and when we die we possess the body of the kingdom to which we will be assigned or if you were to very carefully take Alma 41 start with the chapter heading and then ponder the contents until the chapter headings contents makes sense with the verses observations, then you could express your observations with more objective conviction instead of what seems to me to be pure subjective drama. ( You will also benefit from putting Alma 40 and 42 in the mix as it is a grouping of synergistic concepts). Perhaps you might visit Bruce R. McConkies, "A New Witness for the Articles of Faith" and review chapters 17 and 18 where he discusses eternal life an immortality and how people are grouped and only one group, those who go to the celestial Kingdom, are the only ones that can lay claim to Christ's having paid the price for their sins - All other groups will pay the price for their own sins. Perhaps it will be helpful to realize that all other kingdoms other than the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom are kingdoms of damnation. So even the bottom two levels of celestial glory are states of damnation and are inadequate objectives for those that would have eternal life as God possesses it.Really all I am encouraging is take your personal thoughts and observations and find out if what you feel is how God has planned it to be. It really matters very little about what we want, what we expect, what we will and will not do if it does not have the witness of it being God's will and perspective on the matter. If you do have some thoughts that can be substantiated in scripture and prophetic commentary, share them. These things are very compelling to most who are genuinely seeking to know God's truth instead of their own "truth." I have shared a couple of locations for bringing some of your observations closer in line with knowledge of God's expectations. Will you take the time to research them out and ponder them and pray over them or will you remain in that state of anxiety that comes form hoping something is right but having no second witness that it is so? Take a look at these resource options I suggest , if you will. If you do not have a copy of "A New Witness for the Articles of Faith" I have a copy I will send you if you will return it when you are through with it. Just please do not let yourself get in the habit of thinking that what you want and what you think is always going to be just what happens unless your will is mirrored as His will. Edited August 3, 2012 by SamIam 1
CV75 Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 Does 3 Nephi 14:14 mean that only a few will be exalted in the celestial kingdom?Because strait is the agate, and bnarrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and cfew there be that find it. (3 Nephi 14:14.)No, it means that of all God's children, few find the gate/way in this life. None are denied exaltation who want it on God's terms.
Maidservant Posted August 4, 2012 Posted August 4, 2012 (edited) What is very helpful for me and I think valuable for you and I is when we can express our spiritual wants and desires in a way that makes them compatible with the scriptures and prophetic commentary that substantiates our observations, hopes and desires. That is the principle of a required gospel component called a second witness. There are several types of second witness but it is a compelling principle that is an imperative aspect of knowing and testifying of truth.As you express your self above it is difficult to weed out the subjectivity and ascertain if what you say has merit in terms of its compatibility with theological principles. . . . .Really all I am encouraging is take your personal thoughts and observations and find out if what you feel is how God has planned it to be. It really matters very little about what we want, what we expect, what we will and will not do if it does not have the witness of it being God's will and perspective on the matter. If you do have some thoughts that can be substantiated in scripture and prophetic commentary, share them. These things are very compelling to most who are genuinely seeking to know God's truth instead of their own "truth." I have shared a couple of locations for bringing some of your observations closer in line with knowledge of God's expectations. Will you take the time to research them out and ponder them and pray over them or will you remain in that state of anxiety that comes form hoping something is right but having no second witness that it is so? Take a look at these resource options I suggest , if you will. If you do not have a copy of "A New Witness for the Articles of Faith" I have a copy I will send you if you will return it when you are through with it. Just please do not let yourself get in the habit of thinking that what you want and what you think is always going to be just what happens unless your will is mirrored as His will.Ha ha ha. This is funny. SamIam, I love to read through your thinking process, and you are a very kind person, not to mention obviously intelligent and spiritual. But your suggestion that I am subjective but that you have it right and based on the scriptures was exactly what I was thinking about you vice versa when I read your earlier post! ha ha ha But I edited all that out of what I said on that, because I decided it was rather condescending even though I tried to say it nice. The fact is, the scriptures are there, and we are responsible for ourselves for what we understand from them.All of my conclusions that I carry (not just on this subject) come from the scriptures at least, or are in process and are not conclusions. Admittedly, I read scriptures more than I read prophet and leader stuff except for general conference. As far as "filtering" that is simply my use of a term that captures the essence of what is completely and perfectly observable in the processes that are in play in the plan of salvation. . . . . Your final thought of, "I will not GO to the celestial kingdom. I am already here, in one sense. And in another sense, I will continue to create it in any way that I have ability, strength and according to what my Father has placed in my hand" is again difficult to parse out. I do not understand the objective explanations of your use of the terms in "one sense" and in "another sense". And my thoughts capture the essence of what is observable in the processes that are in play in the plan of salvation. I think that of what I understand. You think that of what you understand. Ha ha ha. But that's fine, I get an opportunity to learn from you.I am here in the celestial kingdom, or I say that, due to two things:1. My understanding of what happened when we became born on this earth and that we have already been given our kingdom in potential. So there no place we are going--just something we are creating. The fact that we are born at all and the priesthood that that represents (being born IS the receipt of the garment of the priesthood) is the celestial kingdom NOW (one sense) but we still do have work to do to reach that potential and create it and allow God and the atonement to create it (second or other sense, future). NOW like a seed planted, but the other sense not yet since the fruit isn't here.2. My realization that--what exactly is it that I want from my heavenly Father that constitutes the celestial kingdom that I don't already enjoy right now? The only thing I can think of is the return of my family and the finding of a husband. Otherwise I love the world as it is and see it as the celestial gift that it is. I can pull together some ideas that may support what you are trying to say, but I'm not sure that does you any good in expanding your own knowledge base to ensure that your effort is not so focused on self will and is more focused on conforming to God's will. As well, the knee jerk reaction to being sorted, grouped, filtered or whatever seems less than considerate of a gospel perspective and more probably a personal revulsion to being talked about like just one more cow in a head of cattle. Well, it is not knee jerk. It is come after long study and experience (right or wrong). And honestly has nothing to do with being in a herd. It has to do with agency and honesty. Not going to explain much on that, as it is a current lesson I am in with my Father and I don't know what the end of it will be. we develop our celestial body in this life Yes. and when we die we possess the body of the kingdom to which we will be assigned or if you were to very carefully take Alma 41 start with the chapter heading and then ponder the contents until the chapter headings contents makes sense with the verses observations, then you could express your observations with more objective conviction instead of what seems to me to be pure subjective drama. ( You will also benefit from putting Alma 40 and 42 in the mix as it is a grouping of synergistic concepts). Perhaps you might visit Bruce R. McConkies, "A New Witness for the Articles of Faith" and review chapters 17 and 18 where he discusses eternal life an immortality and how people are grouped and only one group, those who go to the celestial Kingdom, are the only ones that can lay claim to Christ's having paid the price for their sins - All other groups will pay the price for their own sins. Perhaps it will be helpful to realize that all other kingdoms other than the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom are kingdoms of damnation. So even the bottom two levels of celestial glory are states of damnation and are inadequate objectives for those that would have eternal life as God possesses it. I disagree with this as it is interpreted. And when I say "I", I mean I don't think this is what God, scriptures or the gospel teaches.One place I like to start is D & C 76:60 where it says they shall overcome all things. To me that means a very active, creative process. It has nothing to do with being "assigned".I admit that I struggle with many things. Not doubt in the whole but just the meaning of things. The disciple I was when I was 20 I cannot sustain and I have renewed my discipleship through many times of trial and renewal and I am constantly revising my understandings about what the scriptures really say and what the purpose of life really is.One thing that I take which others may not take and may consider me "heretic" is that for me the use of the terms celestial, terrestrial and telestial are just that--terms to help us understand.Also if it is true that the celestial kingdom is a matter of assignment, I meant what I said--I have already lost that many years ago. So when I was faced with the realization that I had lost the celestial kingdom, at least as I understood it in terms of assignment like you here express, then I had to wake up the next morning and decide what kind of person I was going to be WITHOUT ever "getting to" the celestial kingdom, since that was barred to me. So I think God wanted me in that position so I could learn some other things, but I didn't know that at the time, and it has been an interesting journey since then. The decision I made was that I would not be "good" for wages or reward, but that I would just be good (which I am not really able to be, Christ is able; but at least I know what I want from myself, to be good if I can possibly at all). And God could remove the celestial kingdom from me as he wished and in his wisdom, but that he couldn't stop me from doing the things I thought were right and from loving people the best I was able. (When I say "stop me", obviously God wouldn't stop that, but if he had been asking me for this goodness and saying, well, you can get into the celestial kingdom; now that I could not have the celestial kingdom, I was not going to stop trying to be good, because I wasn't doing it for God's favor. I don't know if that explanation made it clear as mud, ha ha.)Since then I have come to (what I consider to be) a greater understanding of what the temple, life and scriptures mean. But then I could be all wrong, too, of course. But greater at least for myself, so that I don't feel confused in myself anymore, many more things make sense now because I understand the symbolism and the reality the symbolism reveals.I recall something I think is attributed to Joseph Smith that said if we were sent to hell, we would just turn the devils out of it and make it a heaven. So that is basically how I look at things.If a person is a celestial person (and I'm not saying I am), then heaven is wherever they are. There's no other place to go . Edited August 4, 2012 by Maidservant
BCSpace Posted August 4, 2012 Posted August 4, 2012 No comment about baptism in the Terrestrial Kingdom.http://www.lds.org/m...dgment?lang=engThese are they who rejected the gospel on earth but afterward received it in the spirit world.Have to agree. D&C 76 is pretty clear that one has to be LDS (or ancient equivalent) to obain either the Celestial or Terrestial glory as those are the things that only LDS can do or have done (receive the testimony of Jesus). It's not until vs. 99-101 that we encounter other religions, including Christian ones, and that places them in the Telestial as they have not received the testimony of Jesus. This makes sense because the wicked obviously end up there too. One has not advanced in the second estate either by standard, wickedness or by not accepting Christ and his Church. It's pretty much the same thing in terms of progress. The refiner's fire was applied and one did not improve.
SamIam Posted August 4, 2012 Posted August 4, 2012 (edited) Ha ha ha. This is funny. SamIam, I love to read through your thinking process, and you are a very kind person, not to mention obviously intelligent and spiritual. But your suggestion that I am subjective but that you have it right and based on the scriptures was exactly what I was thinking about you vice versa when I read your earlier post! ha ha ha But I edited all that out of what I said on that, because I decided it was rather condescending even though I tried to say it nice. The fact is, the scriptures are there, and we are responsible for ourselves for what we understand from them.All of my conclusions that I carry (not just on this subject) come from the scriptures at least, or are in process and are not conclusions. Admittedly, I read scriptures more than I read prophet and leader stuff except for general conference.You are a very good sport. As you can tell, I try "say it nice" as you call it but I have learned that unless you also say it straight everybody just hears it as they want to hear it and no true communication takes place. I more than realize that many will call someone who puts forth things as directly as I do as arrogant or self righteous but I consider that a reasonable risk and an inherent risk in online communications. As it is I so appreciate someone who will be frank and direct and you should always feel free to be so when ever our paths may cross. Nonetheless, I generally put my posts together with all of the references and quotes to validate my points and conclusions but as of late I have come to accept that a great many only participate in the forum process as a means of casual interaction and to vent their own frustrations. They are not really here to learn anything. There are a few but for most this is just something that captivates for other reasons than the pursuit of knowledge, wisdom and understanding. I agree with your observation though, that if one is not familiar with the allusions and insinuations of a non referenced post then it may appear as so much subjectivity.That is why in the second post I pointed out a few suggestions that may shore up what I perceived as subjective material from your posts. My intent was not to say you are wrong but simply that it appears you might benefit from expanding your understanding on the points I suggested. The real point is, I know this material and the only reason it has value to me is because I have expressed my interest in understanding to my Father in Heaven by diligently studying it out. However, I also know that if I attempt to draw the complete picture as I often do that actually I am attempting to deny the other individuals the blessing of the search and revelations that follow. That is also counter productive. So in my last post I only hinted and suggested, knowing that the very best way to gain true understanding is the personal quest.And my thoughts capture the essence of what is observable in the processes that are in play in the plan of salvation. I think that of what I understand. You think that of what you understand. Ha ha ha. But that's fine, I get an opportunity to learn from you.I am here in the celestial kingdom, or I say that, due to two things:1. My understanding of what happened when we became born on this earth and that we have already been given our kingdom in potential. So there no place we are going--just something we are create. The fact that we are born at all and the priesthood that that represents (being born IS the receipt of the garment of the priesthood) is the celestial kingdom NOW (one sense) but we still do have work to do to reach that potential and create it and allow God and the atonement to create it (second or other sense, future). NOW like a seed planted, but the other sense not yet since the fruit isn't here.2. My realization that--what exactly is it that I want from my heavenly Father that constitutes the celestial kingdom that I don't already enjoy right now? The only thing I can think of is the return of my family and the finding of a husband. Otherwise I love the world as it is and see it as the celestial gift that it is.Well, it is not knee jerk. It is come after long study and experience (right or wrong). And honestly has nothing to do with being in a herd. It has to do with agency and honesty. Not going to explain much on that, as it is a current lesson I am in with my Father and I don't know what the end of it will be.Now I'll call this subjective but mature after a fashion. It is subjective to me because, we have all observed that someone that is born blind doesn't find blindness such a big deal because it is all they have ever known. So it is for us. The consensus of all commentary on the Celestial Kingdom is that is is beyond our capacity to comprehend in our mortal condition - just can't do it. So your comparison to your life and what you have right now as a comparison to a celestial kingdom seems to be not embracing the observations of the Prophets that it is beyond understanding. As well all you really have to judge it by is the blindness of a telestial existence.That said I laud the attitude. It is fabulous. A positive and bright outlook is really the only way to go. To express gratitude for every moment of everyday with all of its trials and blessings is appropriate. However, it is not comparable to a celestial life in my opinion even if you do manifest a celestial spirit in being willing to see it as such. I disagree with this as it is interpreted. And when I say "I", I mean I don't think this is what God, scriptures or the gospel teaches.One place I like to start is D & C 76:60 where it says they shall overcome all things. To me that means a very active, creative process. It has nothing to do with being "assigned".I admit that I struggle with many things. Not doubt in the whole but just the meaning of things. The disciple I was when I was 20 I cannot sustain and I have renewed my discipleship through many times of trial and renewal and I am constantly revising my understandings about what the scriptures really say and what the purpose of life really is.One thing that I take which others may not take and may consider me "heretic" is that for me the use of the terms celestial, terrestrial and telestial are just that--terms to help us understand.I reviewed D & C 76, I am trying to grasp the intent of your words and even though I wouldn't describe our perspectives as similar, I'm going to let go of the assigned mentality, I get your point that we choose where we will wind up and I'm okay with that. Nonetheless, I consider it a semantical discussion. There is no real need to beat a dead horse further but if you keep the imagery of standing before a judgement bar and being judged, the judgement rendered is somewhat in my mind a directional placement of ultimate location of continued existence which for me is rather kind of like being told where to go. You can call that a choice as we make the choices throughout our life that ultimately bring us before the bar of God for our judgement. To me I might emphasize the end of the equation that focuses on being directed where you will go. To you it seems you prefer to focus on the fact that you choose throughout your life to go there. Good enough for me.As far as heretic, it sounds like you see telestial, terrestrial and celestial as more concepts that actual locations. After the manner of how many definitions can be assigned to the word Zion - a people, a place, an ideology, I can let it go that the kingdoms are ideologies but the kingdoms are also places and they are also people. This is one of those statements that I am left to guess what you mean because it lacks a point of reference that firms up your perspective. I'm left again with that subjective feeling as it feels like you are not fully rounded in a complete understanding.Also if it is true that the celestial kingdom is a matter of assignment, I meant what I said--I have already lost that many years ago. So when I was faced with the realization that I had lost the celestial kingdom, at least as I understood it in terms of assignment like you here express, then I had to wake up the next morning and decide what kind of person I was going to be WITHOUT ever "getting to" the celestial kingdom, since that was barred to me. This is the most challenging of all you have stated, and I am frankly going to call bull if you mean what it sounds like you mean. When you can link arms with the Savior and skip merrily along judging everything and everyone with perfect judgement because you have the Saviors heart and keen insight into the hearts of men, when you can prove with sureness that his sacrifice was somehow inadequate to cover your sins then I'll retract my bluntness. However, if he can't save you then you condemn us all. If he can't cover your sins then he can't cover mine, or my children's, or my wife, or my extended family or anyone in the world. We all would fail on your judgement of yourself and that is purely incorrect and offensive to the Savior who gave a perfect life with you in mind. He can save me and if he can save me then he can save you. I would definitely reconsider your perspective if you really mean what this appears to say above. If you do not mean that you are outside of his saving and CLEANSING power then disregard my comments.Well I'll leave it at that for now. Edited August 4, 2012 by SamIam
Freedom Posted August 4, 2012 Posted August 4, 2012 As well at this point, now that I have thought it out I am going to have to back pedal and reject the premise entirely. When you state, "To me it is not so much of a pass or fail, but of an accept or reject" I can see that one could reject God which I consider analogous to rejecting his priesthood or his authority if you will, but one could not reject and actively fight against him and pass forward to the second estate. This requirement remains, most of the world can reject God and still receive a telestial glory. However, cross a certain threshold of knowledge and then not only reject him but fight against him and you can at least warrant the right to rule over the unembodied of the sons of perdition.I am a bit confused by your post. You state that you are rejecting the premise entirely but then you agree with it by stating the limitation as put on those who reject God. So you are agreeing with me.
SamIam Posted August 4, 2012 Posted August 4, 2012 I am a bit confused by your post. You state that you are rejecting the premise entirely but then you agree with it by stating the limitation as put on those who reject God. So you are agreeing with me.In order to respond, Let me also restate your original post that I responded too below:The bar is a lot lower than many believe. Just consider how low the bar was to be considered on Gods side in the war in heaven. To me it is not so much of a pass or fail, but of an accept or reject. We are here to live the lifestyle of heaven. Ultimately, there may be some very good people who, in the end, do not enjoy such a way of life. They are not evil. There may also be many people we perceive to be evil who, given the right opportunity, may flourish in the highest kingdom. We do not know what others are here to achieve, we can only speak for ourselves.What I took from this was that you considered every one who was on God's side as the point of eligibility for coming into the second estate. As you stated, "Just consider how low the bar was to be considered on Gods side in the war in heaven." My point is that it had nothing to do with being on the Lords side as to whether or not one was allowed to proceed to come to the second estate. In fact one could reject God and and still come forward to receive a body. In your statement, I have taken the understanding that you are positing that one could reject God in the preexistence but that was also the end of his opportunity to come to the second estate. The rejection was the end of the opportunity. However, I am stating that rejection was not the exclusion factor but instead was openly fighting against God.If that is what you meant and I did not understand that from your post then yes we are in agreement but thoughts of the bar being lower to get into the second estate being equated with the bar being lower to get into the celestial kingdom is from my way of reading your statement, an unreasonable comparison.
Freedom Posted August 4, 2012 Posted August 4, 2012 If that is what you meant and I did not understand that from your post then yes we are in agreement but thoughts of the bar being lower to get into the second estate being equated with the bar being lower to get into the celestial kingdom is from my way of reading your statement, an unreasonable comparison.My position is that the bar is lower than we think. Some feel inadequate, as if they are not doing enough to earn their way into heaven. The celestial kingdom is a lifestyle not a winner take all contest and ultimately, after striving to live it here, we will be given a choice to carry on or not. I don't envision millions of people begging at heaven's door, rather I envision millions choosing not to go in. They will be their own judge and will go where they are most content.
ANACO Posted August 4, 2012 Posted August 4, 2012 (edited) My position is that the bar is lower than we think. Some feel inadequate, as if they are not doing enough to earn their way into heaven. The celestial kingdom is a lifestyle not a winner take all contest and ultimately, after striving to live it here, we will be given a choice to carry on or not. I don't envision millions of people begging at heaven's door, rather I envision millions choosing not to go in. They will be their own judge and will go where they are most content.Nope. No beggars:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were aready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was bshut.11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I aknow you not. Edited August 4, 2012 by ANACO
Freedom Posted August 4, 2012 Posted August 4, 2012 Nope. No beggars:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were aready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was bshut.11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I aknow you not.Thanks for sharing a quote from a parable that is teaching the importance of proper preparation.
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