The Calculated Suppression Of Mormon Apologetics: The Case Of William Schryver

[TAO]

As my Dad counseled "Do not ask questions you do not want the answer too"; my own council is be careful where you go. There is toxic material everywhere and it comes from both sides of debate.

TAO in Google search this: "I respectfully request the moderators" site:mormondialogue.org

The only result you will is to post 353 on page 18 of closed thread, in that post you will read Williams response that the quotes used where in part taken out of context.

Haha, yes I know. And don't even mention how bad the critics can get... it's part of the reason I don't visit that board much... too much stuff there that drives away the spirit, the way they go about things there.

[Pahoran]

I'm an acolyte of no one Pahoran. I simply criticize that which I see as wrong and the behavior I'm seeing by many apologists is wrong. Before you accuse me otherwise, you know I've taken plenty of bullets for the cause. Lest I need remind you, Scratch tried to damage my IRL career.

Like Ms Jack damaged Will's IRL publication opportunity?

Than to suggest I grovel for anyone.

Then what is the point of telling us how nice she was to you? It has absolutely no relevance to her gleefully malicious hatchet-job on Will.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Damien the Leper]

Been there, done that, got the (thoroughly shredded by her fingernails) T-shirt. For the present, I am simply content to report my observations of the history of events as they unfolded. It is clear that Ms Jack has her share of cloyingly loyal acolytes right here to speak up for her.

And mercyngrace to give them rep points therefor.

Regards,

Pahoran

I think I'll take my leave from any existing conflict between you too. I don't want to take sides.

[TAO]

Like Ms Jack damaged Will's IRL publication opportunity?

Well then shame on here for doing so. But that doesn't change that the things Will possibly said aren't very... helpful, in terms of apologetic examples.

Then what is the point of telling us how nice she was to you? It has absolutely no relevance to her gleefully malicious hatchet-job on Will.

Because she isn't always mean to people. Most likely she did this in reaction to a post she though was offensive. Like ttribe, I have met Ms. Jack (only on that board though, and it was quite a while back), she seemed fine to me. While I don't respect her for bringing up several year old posts like this, thinking of her as an obsessive anti-mormon would be incorrect, I believe.

[Calm]

I find her to be totally partisan in all of her dealings relating to Mormon things -- for example, if an extreme anti-Mormon contradicts a Latter-day Saint, she absolutely and implicitly trusts everything the anti-Mormon says and assumes that the Mormon is lying. I speak from personal experience in this.

My experience does not match this description at all.

I do not agree with all the choices Jack has made over the years (I assume she probably feels the same way about me), but I think your characterization of her is very much overblown and inaccurate.

[Calm]

Tao, you have a good heart and head. I have always thought so.

[mercyngrace]

Pahoran,

Are you offended when I give Cal rep points for saying the same thing others are saying? Or does it just bother you that I give points based on the topic rather than the poster's perceived loyalties?

[ttribe]

Like Ms Jack damaged Will's IRL publication opportunity?

Are you seriously equating Will's chance to publish a paper as a hobbyist with me being able to provide an income for my family? Really?

Then what is the point of telling us how nice she was to you? It has absolutely no relevance to her gleefully malicious hatchet-job on Will.

Regards,

Pahoran

It has relevance to your malignant statements about her character.

[USU78]

Wow! Thanks. It's good to know I've got a couple fans out there, all things considered.

It will be published, I'm certain. Where? When? I'm not sure yet. But, (and I hope he doesn't mind my quoting him here) as Dan wrote in an email he sent to me last night:

You were missed today, Hoss. And your article (Egyptian Papers) was the subject of several conversations.

[Pahoran]

Pahoran,

Are you offended when I give Cal rep points for saying the same thing others are saying? Or does it just bother you that I give points based on the topic rather than the poster's perceived loyalties?

I'm not the least bit "offended" by you showing where your loyalties really lie (and have always lain.)

Just like I'm not the least bit offended when you make gentle-sounding "dear dear" type remonstrances on this board -- always and only towards LDS defenders, of course -- and then go back to your real home board to share hearty guffaws with the rest of your team.

Keep it up, Mercy; it won't offend me in the slightest.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

Are you seriously equating Will's chance to publish a paper as a hobbyist with me being able to provide an income for my family? Really?

Calm down. I'm simply pointing out that you aren't the only one to have had an impact IRL from online malice.

It has relevance to your malignant statements about her character.

Excuse me, but I made no "malignant statements." I reported my interactions with her. That she was nice to you is not even slightly relevant to what I have observed. The fact that someone might be nice to their friends has absolutely no relevance to how they behave towards those they do not regard as friends.

Regards,

Pahoran

[mercyngrace]

I'm not the least bit "offended" by you showing where your loyalties really lie (and have always lain.)

Just like I'm not the least bit offended when you make gentle-sounding "dear dear" type remonstrances on this board -- always and only towards LDS defenders, of course -- and then go back to your real home board to share hearty guffaws with the rest of your team.

Keep it up, Mercy; it won't offend me in the slightest.

Regards,

Pahoran

Pahoran,

You really need to take a good long look in the mirror before talking to anyone about loyalties. You are right on one account though, mine have never changed. They have always been and continue to be to my Savior, Jesus Christ. If you want to engage in smear tactics by trying to paint me otherwise, I'll leave you to it.

MnG

eta: If you can find a single hearty guffaw, any mocking I've done of anyone, I invite you to post it here. Why Me said he'd be monitoring my posting habits, perhaps he can help you find something, anything, to substantiate this false accusation.

[Pahoran]

nul

[Pahoran]

Pahoran,

You really need to take a good long look in the mirror before talking to anyone about loyalties. You are right on one account though, mine have never changed. They have always been and continue to be to my Savior, Jesus Christ.

And your good buddies over at traitors and haters Inc, to whom you faithfully (mis)report PM conversations; you wouldn't want them to feel left out, would you?

If you want to engage in smear tactics by trying to paint me otherwise, I'll leave you to it.

MnG

Smear tactics? What's this? Is Miss Manners getting just a touch snarky?

Say it ain't so!

Regards,

Pahoran

[mercyngrace]

No Pahoran, not snarky. Realistic.

What PMs are you even talking about? Or are you accusing me of being a sock puppet again.

[cwald]

I'm not the least bit "offended" by you showing where your loyalties really lie (and have always lain.)

Just like I'm not the least bit offended when you make gentle-sounding "dear dear" type remonstrances on this board -- always and only towards LDS defenders, of course -- and then go back to your real home board to share hearty guffaws with the rest of your team.

Keep it up, Mercy; it won't offend me in the slightest.

Regards,

Pahoran

And your good buddies over at traitors and haters Inc, to whom you faithfully (mis)report PM conversations; you wouldn't want them to feel left out, would you?

Smear tactics? What's this? Is Miss Manners getting just a touch snarky?

Say it ain't so!

Wow.

[Glenn101]

This thread seems to have rapidly deteriorated and veered sharply from the theme that Will started. Is anything constructive being accomplished now?

Glenn

[Pahoran]

No Pahoran, not snarky. Realistic.

What PMs are you even talking about? Or are you accusing me of being a sock puppet again.

14th April 2011, under the title "Will Schryver and Mockery."

I sent you a grand total of three (3) PMS in that conversation, which I had thought was reasonably irenic and ended on a positive note. Imagine my surprise, then, when I subsequently stumbled across an MDB post in which you described me as having bombarded you relentlessly over several days, scolding you about loyalty. You and your real friends were having such a good time talking about me behind my back that it seemed a shame to spoil your fun.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

This thread seems to have rapidly deteriorated and veered sharply from the theme that Will started. Is anything constructive being accomplished now?

Glenn

Actually you're right, and I apologise for my role in the derail. Perhaps Will would like to redirect the trajectory of the thread?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Anijen]

I see sides being drawn up on both sides by people I like. I refuse to take up sides on either. I will just tell you my opinion.

• I see that Will and Brian have fallen out. I enjoy reading both these guys.
  
• I see TTribe and Mercy and Grace. Two exceptional posters who have in my opinion always been very careful in their posts and posts I have enjoyed.
  
• I think Wills' KEP presentation was brilliant. I still do.
  
• Pahoran is one of my favorite posters, as is Selek, as is Will. I could go on... What I find refreshing about these guys; they do not sugarcoat much and tell it like it is, I like that style. MercynGrace has always been seen by me as a peacemaker and has wonderful insightful posts. Dan Peterson IMO does not post near enough and I feel he and Bill Hamblin are two of our best scholars.
  
• I do not know Mrs. Jack, but I have been to the other board (out of curiosity) and it is a trash heap (my opinion). Please correct me if I am wrong does not Mrs. Jack own it, or is like the lead moderator? If so she might have been nice and cordial but it appears she has allowed such immature contention to fester on her site. I do not see myself ever going back.
  

I hope we can all get along and end all the contention. Let us not stoop as low as that other board. We are better than that. Let's rise to the academic brilliance and strong testimonies that brought me here in the first place.

Anijen

[Calm]

Please correct me if I am wrong does not Mrs. Jack own it, or is like the lead moderator?

She is not connected in any way with that board save for being a poster on it.

[Pahoran]

I see sides being drawn up on both sides by people I like. I refuse to take up sides on either. I will just tell you my opinion.

• I see that Will and Brian have fallen out. I enjoy reading both these guys.
  
• I see TTribe and Mercy and Grace. Two exceptional posters who have in my opinion always been very careful in their posts and posts I have enjoyed.
  
• I think Wills' KEP presentation was brilliant. I still do.
  
• Pahoran is one of my favorite posters, as is Selek as is Will. I could go on... What I find refreshing about these guys; they do not sugarcoat much and tell it like it is, I like that style. MercynGrace has always been seen by me as a peacemaker and has wonderful insightful posts. Dan Peterson IMO does not post near enough and I feel he and Bill Hamblin are two of our best scholars.
  
• I do not know Mrs. Jack, but I have been to the other board (out of curiosity) and it is a trash heap (my opinion). Please correct me if I am wrong does not Mrs. Jack own it, or is like the lead moderator? If so she might have been nice and cordial but it appears she has allowed such immature contention to fester on her site. I do not see myself ever going back.
  

I hope we can all get along and end all the contention. Let us not stoop as low as that other board. We are better than that. Let's rise to the academic brilliance and strong testimonies that brought me here in the first place.

Anijen

No, Ms Jack isn't responsible for the content of that pit (apart from what she contributes herself.) That is the purview of "Dr Shades."

In fact, much as I criticise Ms Jack for her intensely personal and relentless vendettas, looked at objectively, her contributions are actually around the top end, in terms of quality, for that board.

Which, when you think about it, really says something about that board.

Regards,

Pahoran

[mercyngrace]

14th April 2011, under the title "Will Schryver and Mockery."

I sent you a grand total of three (3) PMS in that conversation, which I had thought was reasonably irenic and ended on a positive note. Imagine my surprise, then, when I subsequently stumbled across an MDB post in which you described me as having bombarded you relentlessly over several days, scolding you about loyalty. You and your real friends were having such a good time talking about me behind my back that it seemed a shame to spoil your fun.

Regards,

Pahoran

Pahoran,

I didn't even join the site until:

Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 11:11 am Total posts: 128

[0.02% of all posts / 0.29 posts per day]

I'm still looking for the thread but as I recall, I never mentioned anyone by name, only that I'd gotten excoriated for not prioritizing loyalty.

That post title isn't even showing up in the "your content" search under my username and my first public post on that board wasn't until Fri April 27th, 2012. It was a response to Carton correcting him on the mistaken notion that I am the moderator Minos.

eta: In any event, I do remember clearly disclosing that I'd taken a beating privately without disclosing who was on the other end of the correspondence. I did not feel, given the generalities of what I shared, that it was a violation of confidence. In any case, I apologize to you Pahoran.

[Anijen]

She is not connected in any way with that board save for being a poster on it.

Thanks for the info. Another member within seconds of my post PMd me and told me the same. that makes me feel a little better. I still feel that site is a waste. I really do not see why any of our best apologists post over there, even if they are the only ones defending the church. I say leave that site, if all the apologist for our church never posted there again it would take a lot of the fun out of the enemies cravings.

Which, when you think about it, really says something about that board

Too funny.

.

[Damien the Leper]

Pahoran,

I didn't even join the site until:

Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 11:11 am Total posts: 128

[0.02% of all posts / 0.29 posts per day]

I'm still looking for the thread but as I recall, I never mentioned anyone by name, only that I'd gotten excoriated for not prioritizing loyalty.

That post title isn't even showing up in the "your content" search under my username and my first public post on that board wasn't until Fri April 27th, 2012. It was a response to Carton correcting him on the mistaken notion that I am the moderator Minos.

I am curious as to whathis response will be concerning your membership timeframe at the other board.