Mormons Walk In Gay Pride Parade

[california boy]

Furthermore, I don't understand why people have pride just because they are a certain way. Blond pride, red-headed pride, black pride. What does that mean if you aren't doing anything to contribute to society? You can have pride in your work or pride in your accomplishments but how is it you can have pride just because you have certain characteristics?

Now you can say I accept myself with all my flaws. Acceptance is not the same as pride and usually means that because you do accept yourself and understand your weaknesses you will work to improve yourself and not just expect everyone else to accept your faults and weakenesses just because.

i assume by your answer that you are not into parades at all? Pioneer Day, 4th of July, Cinco de Mayo, St. Patricks Day. They are all groups celebrating who they are. None of these parades are about acceptance. Gay pride is not about acceptance either. I personally don't know many gay people that are looking for anyone's acceptance despite this common idea that seems to be continually brought up by some people. They do however care deeply about being treated equally under the laws of this country and gay pride parade is an important event drawing attention to that goal. Evidently there are a few church members who also believe that gay people should be treated equally in this country and they are willing to say that as members they support them in that effort.

[Deborah]

Where are gay people not treated equally under the law? Because they can't marry as the term is defined doesn't mean they can't have legal contracts giving them the same rights. I don't deny there are individuals who are abusive toward those who are gay, or different for any other reason, like being a Mormon. But under the law such people can be prosecuted.

I don't see any other reason for a gay pride parade except acceptance but I do think it's sad that they feel they have to do that to be accepted.

[cdowis]

i assume by your answer that you are not into parades at all? Pioneer Day, 4th of July, Cinco de Mayo, St. Patricks Day. They are all groups celebrating who they are. None of these parades are about acceptance.

Yes, these are a celebration of who they are and their life style. The wearing of green, hispanic customs, pioneer heritage of survival and building a nation.

The gay pride parade is about the gay life style, specifically sexual practices and customs. Included in this celebration is LGBT, a full range of sexual perversity and immorality.

Gay pride is not about acceptance either. I personally don't know many gay people that are looking for anyone's acceptance despite this common idea that seems to be continually brought up by some people. They do however care deeply about being treated equally under the laws of this country and gay pride parade is an important event drawing attention to that goal.

They are seeking protected status under the law, on same order as race, religion, etc. But that is a subject for another thread.

Evidently there are a few church members who also believe that gay people should be treated equally in this country and they are willing to say that as members they support them in that effort.

"Equal treatment" is code for legalizing SS marriage. A gay person has no particular identification, except self-identification, and they have all the rights as anyone else.

[Libs]

A gay person has no particular identification, except self-identification, and they have all the rights as anyone else.

This is incorrect. In most cases, they do not have the right to marry the person they love, nor do they have the right to all of the legal (not to speak of cultural) benefits that go with that right.

[cdowis]

This is incorrect. In most cases, they do not have the right to marry the person they love, nor do they have the right to all of the legal (not to speak of cultural) benefits that go with that right.

Please read my entire post.

Now, if you want to talk abt SS marriage as a "right", there are several threads on the subject, and you can contribute your ideas there.

[Libs]

Yes, I did read your entire post. You seem to believe that gays "self-identify". I disagree (and so would most who are born that way).

[cdowis]

Yes, I did read your entire post. You seem to believe that gays "self-identify". I disagree (and so would most who are born that way).

OK, I am looking at an individual at work. Normally I can tell if he is black, if he is male, but how can I tell if he is gay? He may be born that way, or makes a conscious choice, I have no way of knowing.

I can tell only if he somehow identifies himself as gay. Nothing mysterious about that.

[Libs]

Well, I think, sometimes, you can tell, but not always, of course. Just because you cannot identify someone, physically, doesn't mean they are not born with a particular trait. I've seen men and women's gender wrongly identified, because they don't wear traditionally male or female clothing (haircuts, etc). Being able to identify someone as this or that, has nothing, whatsoever, to do with whether or not certain traits are inborn. I was born with poor eyesight, but that was not obvious for along time. Still isn't, if you are a stranger observing me, unless I am wearing my glasses.

[BCSpace]

What I highlighted in post #74 is what we consider "self-identification" in the LDS sense dealing with homosexuality. For example, when we are working with a person with this problem, we would consider attending or marching in such a parade to be a significant regression.

[Libs]

Yes, I'm sure. <sigh>

[CASteinman]

Yes, I did read your entire post. You seem to believe that gays "self-identify". I disagree (and so would most who are born that way).

But then, at least some are not born that way.

[Libs]

No, I would not say that.

There is always some experimentation, especially, by youth, but those who are SS attracted for a lifetime are most certainly "born that way".

[BlueDreams]

There is always some experimentation, especially, by youth, but those who are SS attracted for a lifetime are most certainly "born that way".

This is an unfounded claim. I've never seen any research that would back up this statement. I don't get CAS' statement entirely, but this statement isn't correct either.

With luv,

BD

[california boy]

Marriot Hotels come out for gay pride.

Here is the link

"We are proud of this campaign and of our long-standing reputation for our commitment to diversity and inclusion," says Joanna Todd, vice president, segment strategy. "Our core strength lies in our ability to embrace differences and make everyone feel respected and valued when they visit and stay in our hotels."

Read more: http://www.towleroad.com/#ixzz1xWVts5wb

[california boy]

Loving you does not mean that I allow you to destroy society with SS marriage. That is not love but indulgence.

Could you please explain this statement? How does SS marriage destroy society??

[california boy]

Where are gay people not treated equally under the law? Because they can't marry as the term is defined doesn't mean they can't have legal contracts giving them the same rights. I don't deny there are individuals who are abusive toward those who are gay, or different for any other reason, like being a Mormon. But under the law such people can be prosecuted.

I don't see any other reason for a gay pride parade except acceptance but I do think it's sad that they feel they have to do that to be accepted.

If you really thnk that gay people are treated equally under the laws of this country, then you obviously have no understanding what the basic issues are that the gay population is fighting for. It is an absurd statement that shows you are either ignoring the issues of this group or you are completely clueless as to what the issues are about.

[Pahoran]

If you really thnk that gay people are treated equally under the laws of this country, then you obviously have no understanding what the basic issues are that the gay population is fighting for. It is an absurd statement that shows you are either ignoring the issues of this group or you are completely clueless as to what the issues are about.

Thank you, CB, for reminding us that it's not possible to get it unless we agree with you.

It is a fact disputed by exactly nobody that "gay" people are legally entitled to choose a spouse from exactly the same pool as every other person of the same sex as them. Hence, "gay" people are treated equally under the law.

However, most "gay" people don't want to get married; what they want is to form a different kind of relationship and to have that "recognised" as marriage. The have chosen to call this legal fiction "marriage equality," a blatant falsehood.

And not all of us are fooled thereby.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Libs]

A different kind of relationship? Not sure what you mean by that, Pahoran (and I'm almost afraid to ask).

[cdowis]

Could you please explain this statement? How does SS marriage destroy society??

This has been discussed at length in other threads. I have no interest in turning this into a discussion of SS marriage so may I suggest that you check out these threads and contribute your ideas.

[Pahoran]

A different kind of relationship? Not sure what you mean by that, Pahoran (and I'm almost afraid to ask).

Don't be. I was simply acknowledging reality.

1. Marriage is a permanent, exclusive, family-founding relationship between a man and a woman.
   
2. Every single man has the same "right" to marry any single woman who will have him. This "right" is not trammelled by any arbitrary tests around "sexual orientation" or anything else.
   
3. A relationship of some sorts between two people of the same sex is not a marriage, but is something else.
   
4. There may (or may not) be valid arguments why such a relationship should be given recognition as a "marriage." However, such recognition is essentially changing the definition of marriage. (In a way that mixed-race marriages did not, at any time, contrary to a popular and persistent canard.)
   
5. Be that as it may, the fact remains that "gay" and "straight" people are absolutely equal before the law when it comes to marriage. The law (in most places) is blind to questions of "orientation," for the rather good and sufficient reason that "orientation" is a recent cultural construct.
   
6. Thus, the claim that the same-sex "marriage" jihad is about "marriage equality" is a brazen falsehood.
   

The rare "gay" person who actually wants to get married is looking to form a permanent, exclusive, family-founding relationship with a member of the opposite sex. Because that's what marriage is. Any other form of relationship is, ipso facto, of a different type.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Libs]

The rare "gay" person who actually wants to get married is looking to form a permanent, exclusive, family-founding relationship with a member of the opposite sex. Because that's what marriage is. Any other form of relationship is, ipso facto, of a different type.

By whose definition? There are hundreds of thousands of SS marriages around the world today. It is what it has always been..a commitment to be faithful, made between two people, usually understood to be a lifetime commitment. The same kinds of vows and the same general lifestyle (often including raising children) that is made between men and women who marry. Not a different "type", at all.

[california boy]

Thank you, CB, for reminding us that it's not possible to get it unless we agree with you.

It is a fact disputed by exactly nobody that "gay" people are legally entitled to choose a spouse from exactly the same pool as every other person of the same sex as them. Hence, "gay" people are treated equally under the law.

However, most "gay" people don't want to get married; what they want is to form a different kind of relationship and to have that "recognised" as marriage. The have chosen to call this legal fiction "marriage equality," a blatant falsehood.

And not all of us are fooled thereby.

Regards,

Pahoran

You may disagree with what I wrote, but you provide absolutely no proof that equality under the law is not what gay people are fighting for. You may think that gay people are treated equailly, but you would have a hard time finding a gay person who feels they are treated equally under the laws of this country. Is all you have to do is be married and gay and try filing a federal income tax to know that gays not equality in America or have a spouse from another courtry being deported.. So far, 5 seperate federal court judges in 5 different districts have ruled that gays are not treated equally under the laws of this country.

You of course may be more than willing to pretend they are treated equally, but eventually DOMA will be overturned within the year and the other discriminating laws of this country will eventually go away. Sophmoric answers like gay people can marry the opposite sex will not make it through the legal system of this country. I think you know that.

[california boy]

This has been discussed at length in other threads. I have no interest in turning this into a discussion of SS marriage so may I suggest that you check out these threads and contribute your ideas.

Good dodge.

[Daniel2]

For anyone that's interested in other news of Mormon-related movement that appears to be bending towards gay-accepance, Marriott resorts and hotels are now advertising and soliciting to host gay weddings:

It will be interesting to see exactly how this is taken by, say, the half dozen people who make up One Million Moms or by the National Organization for Marriage (but not yours). Marriott International wants you to consider them when it comes time to plan your wedding. And they are doing so in not-coy or ambiguous terms.

On their website on a page titled “gay-wedding-venues“:

Weddings and Civil Ceremonies

Marriott hotels provide ideal venues for ceremonies honoring you and your partner. With luxurious hotels and stunning resorts all around the world, we offer the perfect settings and Planning Services for your most special day.

Event Planners

Marriott event planners and luxurious venues work hard behind the scenes so you can shine in the limelight. We’re waiting with the welcome, the amenities, the catering, and the rest of the celebration you and your cast of stars deserves.

Considering that a number of big businesses have recently become increasingly vocal in support, this might not be very remarkable… if Bill Marriott were not the Chairman of the Board, if the Marriott family (which owns about a fifth of the stock) was not Mormon, and if Mitt Romney (who is named after Willard Marriott) had not at one point been on the Board of Directors.

Of course, Marriott is a large corporation today and isn't solely reflective of LDS values, and the Marriotts themselves may or may not support this business decision.

It does, however, seem to indicate to me that acceptance of marriage equality for both opposite-sex and same-sex couples has arrived, and is here to stay.

Daniel2

[BCSpace]

You seem to believe that gays "self-identify". I disagree (and so would most who are born that way).

Well, so far, none have been found to be born that way. And if they were, self identification occurs nonetheless just a heterosexuals find themselves suddenly to be attracted to the opposite sex as they mature. Many homosexuals are encouraged by predatory recruitment efforts as well. But in the LDS sense, when it comes to overcoming this problem, self identification occurs when such a one begins to see themselves mainly as a different kind sexual being rather than as a whole person. In other words, they do the opposite of admitting they have a problem and trying to correct it or live according to the commandments.