Jesus And Satan As Brothers

[Lightbearer]

The other day while in a local fast food establishment [where I have eaten adinfinentum times over the past 20 + years], and one of the owners son's [ The family are Greek Orthodox and we have a awesome relationship] introdused me to one of his friends an evangelical christian who was eating there. After a brief introduction [and him finding out I was "Mormon"] he stated that biblicaly I was a non Christian cultist for believing that Jesus was the spirit brother of lucifer. He stated that lucifer was a created being of GOD- Jesus, and was an angel who was in charge of the music in heaven. and I tried to explain our position as satan originaly being one of the bene ha elohiem [son's of God] in Gen 1-2, Duet 32:8-9, Job 1+2, Isaiah 40-50 in various assembly council meeting's/setting's in Heaven over a period before and during time.But he gave his Bible alone and Jesus creating Lucifer and no brotherhood of the two because of that explanation. I gave him some some LDS Aplogetic works concering this but the were immediatly thrown in the garbage/trash. I then remembered about pearls and swine. Any future advise ?. Thanks.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Dust your feet off...

But seriously, you cannot force the truth on anyone, if they want to continue to remain in darkness that is their choice. That is my advice. Pray for them, God has a way of drawing people to the truth if they are His sheep.

[CASteinman]

You and I are in perfect agreement.

I know it will sound silly, but I am truly very glad that we are. Thank you very much.

[dougtheavenger]

"But he gave his Bible alone and Jesus creating Lucifer and no brotherhood of the two because of that explanation"

huh???

I don't believe that there is any major Christian denomination that holds that Jesus created Satan. So I have doubts that this guy knows the doctrines of his own religion. Job 2:1 is sufficient to support our position.

[BCSpace]

I would say that if one minimized or removed from one's apologetic the official doctrine that we are literal spirit brothers and sisters, including Satan and Jesus, however that came to pass, then one is no longer an apologist. At least not for the LDS Church but for one's own church.

What's being "minimized" is not the doctrine that God is the Father of our spirits and that we are all therefore His sons and daughters, but is this ridiculous idea that we emerged as spirit babies from Heavenly Mother's birth canal.

That detail is not explicitly stated in doctrine as far as I'm aware but I'm wondering what's so ridiculous about it? Especially since the notion of "correspondence and simultaneity for the earthly and heavenly" run through Judaism, early Christianity, and modern LDS doctrine. The spirit looks like the physical body etc.

Sometimes, even though a detail is not mentioned, the most reasonable thing to do is go with what follows and without saying. That God may have had sex with Mary is a most reasonable assumption. That we are the literal (the Church emphasizes literal) spirit children of God leads to the notion you don't like.

Without the express details given, I think we are free to speculate, but the original speculations seem like the best ones to me in these cases.

[altersteve]

That detail is not explicitly stated in doctrine as far as I'm aware but I'm wondering what's so ridiculous about it? Especially since the notion of "correspondence and simultaneity for the earthly and heavenly" run through Judaism, early Christianity, and modern LDS doctrine. The spirit looks like the physical body etc.

Sometimes, even though a detail is not mentioned, the most reasonable thing to do is go with what follows and without saying. That God may have had sex with Mary is a most reasonable assumption. That we are the literal (the Church emphasizes literal) spirit children of God leads to the notion you don't like.

Without the express details given, I think we are free to speculate, but the original speculations seem like the best ones to me in these cases.

Literal does not have to mean we came from Heavenly Mother's birth canal. The doctrine says we have existed (in some form or another) forever.

That God had sex with Mary is NOT a reasonable assumption, or at least not if you believe what the Bible and Book of Mormon say about Christ being born of a virgin.

Edited May 24, 2012 by altersteve

[theplains]

That God had sex with Mary is NOT a reasonable assumption,

It seems to say otherwise according to a former President of the Mormon Church. Maybe the term virgin applied

to having no relations between a mortal woman and a mortal man to the saints of those days.

Regards,

Jim

[Garden Girl]

Because it isn't doctrine.

I entirely agree TSS... can you imagine how many wives and how long it would take to produce a population of "spirit babies" through the process that we follow here? Common sense hits one in the face when we think in the billions... some day we will be told just how these things were accomplished... and I don't think it will be anything like this sphere...

GG

[CASteinman]

I just gave a present tense in post #55. But if you are merely talking about sons of God as in those who are obedient to God and want to or are going to be part of His Church (adoptive) family, I agree. In the literal sense however, he is every bit a son of God now as any mortal male on this earth is.

You cannot be a Son of God if you are expelled from the Family of God.

This is the very heart of things like "disowned" and "cast out".

It is why there was a War in Heaven. Not just a spat.

Edited May 25, 2012 by CASteinman

[altersteve]

It seems to say otherwise according to a former President of the Mormon Church. Maybe the term virgin applied

to having no relations between a mortal woman and a mortal man to the saints of those days.

Regards,

Jim

This doesn't mean God had sex with Mary. If we have the technology today to have children without having sexual intercourse, I'm sure God has the ability to do the same.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

I dunno why it's often seen as so out-there to suggest that Christ and an Accuser are "literally" (coded reference, wink-wink) related in the same way that we all are, even if the latter was disowned for political reasons.

I also dunno why it is often seen as so out-there to suggest that spirit birth has something to do with, y'know, actual reproduction. Adam and Eve were not ashamed before they sinned in the Garden; Victorian prudery aside, there is nothing shameful or "low" about making love, and there is nothing "higher" about other methods of creation. The way I see it, making love can be one of the highest experiences we can have with another person. Denigrating anyone's birth canal -- the very gateway through which every single person here passed through to emerge into this world -- as being a part of a shamefully "ridiculous" process is ... well, it's pretty rude to our mamas, at the very least.

If we're embarrassed by these things, I think it's because we've been hanging out with our evangelical friends too often, who long ago outlawed any reference to cosmism and the real, physical, tangible, biological world.

Here's how I think of it:

1. We are eternal beings in some sense. None of us really know how consciousness and the brain really work at the deepest levels; lots of us religious folks believe Intelligences who are wiser than us have entrusted us with the knowledge that there is some spark of intelligence which can exist outside of our current bodies, and which has always existed. Because this spark is Uncreated, it represents our true Will, which is Free. There is no creation about it. God's spark of intelligence is coeternal with our own. They have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

2. Our Uncreated spark of Intelligence was called out of the vasty deep and born into a body created for it by parents from a family in another sphere/world. Call that "creation", which is from creare, meaning "to make, bring forth, produce, beget," related to crescere "arise, grow." In other words, biology. Sexual reproduction. Stamen and pistil, sperm and ovum, DNA, the whole schmiel. Primates are baby-making machines. We do the same thing on this sphere.

3. Just as our own sphere/world is a planet orbiting a star populated by embodied beings whom Christ called the Children of God, so too there is nothing weird or sci-fi or embarrassing about similar immortal beings living on other worlds. (Remember, inasmuch as we are not the saviors of humanity, we are as salt that has lost it's savor; biogerontologists such as Aubrey de Grey are working to halt senescence in our bodies in this sphere; presumably the Gods have got that pretty well figured out up in theirs. Every few years, every single atom in our bodies is swapped out and replaced; our bodies undergo a complex metamorphosis throughout our entire lives, growing from embryo to infant to child to adult; our memories come and go depending on how reliable our biological retrieval system is; and yet through it all, our Uncreated Intelligence is there, our individual identity maintained underneath it all.)

3. We wanted to learn from some experiences we couldn't have up there, and we died a death. That really sucked, because we were separated from our bodies again, and bodies are great. They let us see, they let us feel, they let us kiss and hug and dance and swim. We wanted to keep our First Estate.

4. The Gods were kind enough to provide us with a Plan of Salvation. Instead of floating off into disembodied Outer Darkness, we were rescued from our Fall by being born into the family on this world, where there was space. We were given to inhabit bodies which evolved from the dust and primordial ooze to be uniquely tailored to this world's conditions, and we all become like the archetypal Adam and Eve, whose names mean "Many" because the drama we act out in our Theaters/Temples teaches us all about the Fall and Resurrection which is our lifecycle. This life gives us a bit of time and breathing room to prepare to meet God again. Thing is, we're separated from the Gods by that big ol' gap of space. There has to be an At-One-Ment made if we want to get back to 'em. Christ came down to us, He found us again, and is going to take us back home in whatever way He can. (Physics not yet understood.)

5. If Jesus was the Son of God and Mary (Through in vitro fertilization or whatever? She was still a virgin, and then had kids with Joseph -- surrogate mothers aren't uncommon nowadays, but they were back when the Bible was written), wouldn't you eventually discover that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father and Mother also? Where was there ever a son without parents? Where was there ever a father or mother who wasn't first a son or a daughter? Whenever did a tree spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Like Pearl Jam said: 'it's evolution, baby.' Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, so if Jesus had a Father, can't we believe that His Father had a Father too? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such doctrine.

6. My "Father in Heaven" is obviously not my earthly father. At a fundamental level, we Uncreated Intelligences have to be "adopted" into the family. This is where the semantics get confused and people freak out about the supposed philosophical paradoxes which are really nothing more than linguistic ambiguities.

As Brigham Young said, "Whether Adam is the personage that we should consider Our Heavenly Father, or not, is considerable of a mystery to a good many. I do not care for one moment how that is; it is no matter whether we are to consider Him our God, or whether His Father, or his Grandfather, for in either case we are of one species of one family and Jesus Christ is also of our species."

I'm not Abraham's literal physical son, but I can become a "Son of Abraham" through covenant. I'm literally a part of the covenant; the wording of the covenant is a metaphor. I'm not physically related to the Heavenly Parents, but I can become a "Son of God," a "Son of Wisdom, Who is Justified of Her Children." When we die, we're pulled back across that big divide (physics again not yet understood) and reborn. We drink from a cup of memory and awaken to a knowledge of our guilt from this world, which is why it's a good idea not to sin, so we don't have a rude shock.

(This is the point where we get to all the prudish anti-mormon rhetoric about becoming Gods and "popplating anuther planetz!!1!" ... which is a very odd thing to get in a huff about, since presumably that's what we're doing on this one.) (The caricature of the diabolical violently-Patriarchal Gods ruling over eternally-pregnant heavenly mothers is what is really ridiculous, not the notion that there is a biological process needed to create our families. I know lots of folks who wish they could've had more children before their child bearing years were over in this sphere, but if a couple doesn't want to, they don't have to. If we're eternal beings, it's not like time is an issue; in less than four thousand years our population has increased exponentially into the billions. If anything, sexual reproduction might be the most efficient way; everyone, once their bodies have been healed, has the power to take part in the great work.)

The point is that we are all Gods in embryo, we are all of the same "species" of Uncreated Intelligence, and the Gods who've gone before us are trying to raise us up to their level so we can love each other better. (We without them cannot be complete, and vice versa)

Arguments about mere terminology ("Mormons are pagan polytheists!" "No we're not! Well, I mean, kind of, but ...") are fundamentally uninteresting, and it really bores me when we try to shunt ourselves into a philosophical monotheism to look less peculiar to those Christians who swallowed Aristotle whole.

(Remember, according to the D&C there will be "a time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest. All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth [...] According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest.")

The real question is whether we will choose to become Messengers to an Accuser with a spirit of bloodshed, or whether we will become part of the family of Peacemakers, who influence others only through persuasion and meekness and love unfeigned.

Edited May 25, 2012 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[Cobalt-70]

I entirely agree TSS... can you imagine how many wives and how long it would take to produce a population of "spirit babies" through the process that we follow here? Common sense hits one in the face when we think in the billions... some day we will be told just how these things were accomplished... and I don't think it will be anything like this sphere...

We already know how it was accomplished: it wasn't. Spirits are eternal and uncreated, according to D&C 93:29 and Abraham 3:18.

[ACW]

When it comes to Evangelicals they don't ask Mormons questions they just state what they know to be "true Mormon doctrine". It's the same way when I've been asked "how many planets is your husband going to get in heaven?" These people have no interest in the answer they just want to be sarcastic and slur a religion they perceive to be a cult.... which in my eyes they come off as arogant and ignorant.

They are told that Joseph Smith is a false prophet therefore everthing he taught is false.

So, when I get questions like these my response is "That's not doctrine and someone has been feeding you a load of garbage". This ends a "gotcha" line of questions and pretty much other possible discussions.

[Maidservant]

I entirely agree TSS... can you imagine how many wives and how long it would take to produce a population of "spirit babies" through the process that we follow here? Common sense hits one in the face when we think in the billions... some day we will be told just how these things were accomplished... and I don't think it will be anything like this sphere...

GG

This is fine, but I look at it another way for me. If there was ever an eternity where I was BARRED from, or the opportunity REMOVED from me to never have another baby (yes, an actual, physical baby), I would not participate and I would mourn. This would be no celestial kingdom for me.

You cannot be a Son of God if you are expelled from the Family of God.

This is the very heart of things like "disowned" and "cast out".

It is why there was a War in Heaven. Not just a spat.

For me, I can't understand this. This is really how human beings act? This is the kind of action I would ascribe to my Father in heaven, something even *I* in my weaknesses would never do? Even if I had a family member who had to be removed from some kinds of assocation (i.e. there is a cousin I won't permit to be around my youngest) because of their level of toxicity, I would still reach out to them as much as possible on their level. There wouldn't ever be any sense that they weren't part of the family. Just that our family happens to include someone who is [fill in the blank with your flavor of evil]. If I had a son who was in federal prison, I would still visit him from time to time and bring cupcakes.

[Garden Girl]

We already know how it was accomplished: it wasn't. Spirits are eternal and uncreated, according to D&C 93:29 and Abraham 3:18.

Hello Cobalt-70...

That's fine... and explains my objection to the idea of "spirit babies" coming through a Heavenly Mother's birth canal, or being subject to the same type of process we use here. Someday we will understand just how the uncreated Intelligence became Spirit to stand in the Council in Heaven and receive the Plan of Salvation... and have the agency to choose whether to support that plan... I look forward to receiving this knowledge.

In the meantime, the scriptures you quoted will be among those that will have to suffice...

GG

[abdullah786]

We believe in Islam that Lucifer/Satan/Iblis/Shaytaan is the likeness of the Nephilim in the Torah, or Djinn/Genie. I did used to be a converted morman and I'm still interested in learning more about this religion of Mormanism.

So yeah, we believe that Lucifer/Iblis was around before Adam was created and God almighty ordered all of the Angels and spirits to prostrate to clay Adam he refused out of pride. Then God almighty respited him until the day of judgement where he would be sentenced to Hell. See, hellfire was created for him and he swore oath to God that he would lead as many of us there with him.

We also have a very different belief in the status of Jesus son of Mary, upon whom be peace. As many of you probably know we see him as a prophet and the messiah. My best understanding as to why Jesus, upon whom be peace, could not have a godly status even if he were the literal son of God is that even so he would have had to of been created and not eternal the way God almighty himself is.

I'm just discussing.. I swear by God himself, glory be to He, that I'm not trying to start any fights here.. I used to be morman and I'm just looking to talk and make friends and learn more about theology.

Peace, blessing and mercy to all of us ameen <3

[Vance]

We already know how it was accomplished: it wasn't. Spirits are eternal and uncreated, according to D&C 93:29 and Abraham 3:18.

Wait a second, what happened to your "spirit babies" meme?

[KevinG]

We believe in Islam that Lucifer/Satan/Iblis/Shaytaan is the likeness of the Nephilim in the Torah, or Djinn/Genie. I did used to be a converted morman and I'm still interested in learning more about this religion of Mormanism.

So yeah, we believe that Lucifer/Iblis was around before Adam was created and God almighty ordered all of the Angels and spirits to prostrate to clay Adam he refused out of pride. Then God almighty respited him until the day of judgement where he would be sentenced to Hell. See, hellfire was created for him and he swore oath to God that he would lead as many of us there with him.

We also have a very different belief in the status of Jesus son of Mary, upon whom be peace. As many of you probably know we see him as a prophet and the messiah. My best understanding as to why Jesus, upon whom be peace, could not have a godly status even if he were the literal son of God is that even so he would have had to of been created and not eternal the way God almighty himself is.

I'm just discussing.. I swear by God himself, glory be to He, that I'm not trying to start any fights here.. I used to be morman and I'm just looking to talk and make friends and learn more about theology.

Peace, blessing and mercy to all of us ameen <3

Welcome Abdullah... I take it you are of middle eastern background? This is a great place to discuss all aspects of Mormonism with both pro and critic sides. For doctrinal information please see lds.org and enjoy the extensive library available there.

[thesometimesaint]

GG:

When you have all of Eternity what's a few billion years between friends.

abdullah786:

It's Mormon not morman.

[abdullah786]

Welcome Abdullah... I take it you are of middle eastern background? This is a great place to discuss all aspects of Mormonism with both pro and critic sides. For doctrinal information please see lds.org and enjoy the extensive library available there.

Thanks very much. I'm actually European descent born in Canada

... And oops, correction "Mormon" no wonder I got a spellcheck red-strike. I though it was being silly.

I converted to Islam about seven years ago, and I converted to Mormonism when I was around ten with my mother. I still have my new and old testament along with Mormon scripture all in one book with my name stamped on the front

[zerinus]

Thanks very much. I'm actually European descent born in Canada

... And oops, correction "Mormon" no wonder I got a spellcheck red-strike. I though it was being silly.

I converted to Islam about seven years ago, and I converted to Mormonism when I was around ten with my mother. I still have my new and old testament along with Mormon scripture all in one book with my name stamped on the front

Hi abdullah, you asked a question more than a month ago in another thread, which I tried to reply to by starting a new thread. But you disappeared, and did not reply to my thread. You can read it here. Did you not see that thread I started to reply to your question?

[KevinG]

Thanks very much. I'm actually European descent born in Canada

... And oops, correction "Mormon" no wonder I got a spellcheck red-strike. I though it was being silly.

I converted to Islam about seven years ago, and I converted to Mormonism when I was around ten with my mother. I still have my new and old testament along with Mormon scripture all in one book with my name stamped on the front

What a fascinating mix of traditions! I met a man at Scout Camp last year who grew up Mormon but converted to Islam. While there are obvious differences in theology there was much in common when it comes to treating the body as a gift from God and valuing family. Dr. Peterson who often posts here is a Mormon who is a scholar of Islam. You may find his insights valuable.

[Maidservant]

We believe in Islam that Lucifer/Satan/Iblis/Shaytaan is the likeness of the Nephilim in the Torah, or Djinn/Genie. I did used to be a converted morman and I'm still interested in learning more about this religion of Mormanism.

So yeah, we believe that Lucifer/Iblis was around before Adam was created and God almighty ordered all of the Angels and spirits to prostrate to clay Adam he refused out of pride. Then God almighty respited him until the day of judgement where he would be sentenced to Hell. See, hellfire was created for him and he swore oath to God that he would lead as many of us there with him.

We also have a very different belief in the status of Jesus son of Mary, upon whom be peace. As many of you probably know we see him as a prophet and the messiah. My best understanding as to why Jesus, upon whom be peace, could not have a godly status even if he were the literal son of God is that even so he would have had to of been created and not eternal the way God almighty himself is.

I'm just discussing.. I swear by God himself, glory be to He, that I'm not trying to start any fights here.. I used to be morman and I'm just looking to talk and make friends and learn more about theology.

Peace, blessing and mercy to all of us ameen <3

Welcome .

[abdullah786]

Hi abdullah, you asked a question more than a month ago in another thread, which I tried to reply to by starting a new thread. But you disappeared, and did not reply to my thread. You can read it here. Did you not see that thread I started to reply to your question?

I did read into the post and the website given but yeah I did kind of disappear. I had a couple conversations going on that were left untied. I'm back again and I appreciate the courtesy and info from everyone.

[Calm]

How could we scowl at someone with an avatar like yours?

[zerinus]

I did read into the post and the website given but yeah I did kind of disappear. I had a couple conversations going on that were left untied. I'm back again and I appreciate the courtesy and info from everyone.

Thank you. Tell us more about yourself, how you became a Mormon, why you left, and how you became a Muslim.