Unintended Consequences Of Gender Bias In The Lds Church

[Libs]

Well, I didn't realize I was talking to a bunch of old hippies..........Trippy.

[Log]

To use an over-used Trekkie quip - I think they did a little too much LDS in the '60s.

[mfbukowski]

To use an over-used Trekkie quip - I think they did a little too much LDS in the '60s.

That might explain everything.

[Calm]

Guys in platform shoes...feeling a bit ill.

[mfbukowski]

Guys in platform shoes...feeling a bit ill.

http://www.ebay.com/...=item337575c761

Edited May 3, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Libs]

lol Calmoriah!

Hey, think John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever....very sexy in those platform shoes.

[Nofear]

Fun little article on cracked.com: 5 Gender Stereotypes That Used to Be the Exact Opposite.

Disclaimer: The website is sometimes a little crude and so not for the delicate and easily offended (e.g. men).

[wenglund]

Guys in platform shoes...feeling a bit ill.

Topped off with a leisure suit, I am sorry to say.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Mark Beesley]

Incidentally, socialism, being compulsory in nature, is incompatible with the oath and covenant of the Priesthood.

Can't socialism be voluntary? If I vote for candidates who espouse the socialist ideal, can I complain that I am being compelled? If I live in country that has agreed to be bound by democratic principles, can I be heard to complain if all decisions do not go my way? I submit to paying taxes that pay for wars that I vehemently oppose. Isn't my compulsory support of the killing of other human beings incompatible with the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood?

[Log]

Can't socialism be voluntary?

Unicorns may most certainly be pink.

If I vote for candidates who espouse the socialist ideal, can I complain that I am being compelled?

You have the ability to complain in all circumstances.

If I live in country that has agreed to be bound by democratic principles, can I be heard to complain if all decisions do not go my way?

Counterfactual hypotheses hold little interest for me.

I submit to paying taxes that pay for wars that I vehemently oppose. Isn't my compulsory support of the killing of other human beings incompatible with the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood?

Maybe. Maybe not.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Log

[Mark Beesley]

Unicorns may most certainly be pink.

Compelling . . . except for the fact that all socialism is not created equal. I suppose if you define socialism by some countries that have used purely violent, coercive measures to achieve their aims, then I would be on your side. However, I don't. The societies in the Pearl of Great Price (Zion), Book of Mormon and New Testament that held all things in common and had no poor among them all fall under the broad umbrella of socialism according to the definition that I accept.

[Log]

Compelling . . . except for the fact that all socialism is not created equal.

As I said - unicorns may most certainly be pink.

Zion is not socialist, even by your preferred definition - there is no private ownership of the means of production, for starters. So the assertion of equivalency of socialism and Zion is D.O.A.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Log

[Stargazer]

OK.

First of all, in future could you please post quotes like this with much smaller fonts than this? As it was, I was still just barely capable of reading it. A smidgeon smaller and then I would have had to bring out my magnifying glass to be able to discern it. Of course, putting it in white font color would have made it even harder to read, and so you see that you still have some work to do before it is complete invisible. Good try, though!

Seriously, I had to copy and paste it into Word and bump the fontsize up in order to read it without getting a serious case of eyestrain.

After doing so, however, I have to say that I agree with what you wrote, and I think that you should send it to the HCSpeaker after all. However, you should probably do some heavy editing. As a person who really likes laying things on thick myself, I think it would be more effective with less verbiage. "Less is more" as they say, and you do come off as a bit strident, I regret to say. Your main point is excellent and cries out to be made. Just make it with greater mildness.

Just my 2 cents.

Mike

PS - Sorry to be jerking this thread back on-topic, but I didn't take the opportunity to see where it had gone to by the 11th page, so ... please no more bell-bottoms and hi-rise trousers.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Stargazer

[wenglund]

Well, I didn't realize I was talking to a bunch of old hippies..........Trippy.

That's right. And I hope the young pups around here haven't deluded themselves into believing they can out hippie us old hippies. We were a part of the movement that put lib into liberal and rad into radical.

Like mfb, I was given a left-wing education. During junior high and high school, I was spoon-fed socialism by some of the most liberal teacher on the left coast. I participated in several "sit-ins" and protests against the Vietnam war and for racial integration. As mentioned here before, the race riots in Seattle broke out at the amusement park where I worked. Even at Ricks college I was the most radically-minded student there, which may not be saying much, though I did organize the campus chapter and was president of the leftist organization: Students for a More Democratic Society, and participated in what to my knowledge was the only peace rally/concert held at the school. I also found myself in the Dean's office several times because of my radical behavior.

As for my contributions to the feminist movement, I met and had my picture taken with Sonia Johnson at the Hill Camorah Pageant in the early 80's, and while at Ricks I instigated the only pantie raid in the school's history (at least to my knowledge).

And, while my mission rightly toned me down a bit, my first year back at BYU I was involved in an underground dorm newspaper, the editor of which later went on to form Sunstone Magazine.

So there...LOL.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 3, 2012 by wenglund

[mercyngrace]

OK.

First of all, in future could you please post quotes like this with much smaller fonts than this? As it was, I was still just barely capable of reading it. A smidgeon smaller and then I would have had to bring out my magnifying glass to be able to discern it. Of course, putting it in white font color would have made it even harder to read, and so you see that you still have some work to do before it is complete invisible. Good try, though!

Seriously, I had to copy and paste it into Word and bump the fontsize up in order to read it without getting a serious case of eyestrain.

After doing so, however, I have to say that I agree with what you wrote, and I think that you should send it to the HCSpeaker after all. However, you should probably do some heavy editing. As a person who really likes laying things on thick myself, I think it would be more effective with less verbiage. "Less is more" as they say, and you do come off as a bit strident, I regret to say. Your main point is excellent and cries out to be made. Just make it with greater mildness.

Just my 2 cents.

Mike

PS - Sorry to be jerking this thread back on-topic, but I didn't take the opportunity to see where it had gone to by the 11th page, so ... please no more bell-bottoms and hi-rise trousers.

Thanks for the input Mike.

Sorry about the font. When I cut and pasted from my email draft, everything looked the same size in the post. Then I hit submit and the text in the quote box shrunk. I'm not sure why. Let me check something out...

edit: Okay, I enlarged the font. The weird thing is that when it posted, there was no html tag (or whatever you call those [do this] [/undo this] things) shrinking the size so I thought everything would post the same size.

Back to the actual text of the letter. What would you omit/rewrite/reword?

Edited May 3, 2012 by mercyngrace

[mfbukowski]

Compelling . . . except for the fact that all socialism is not created equal. I suppose if you define socialism by some countries that have used purely violent, coercive measures to achieve their aims, then I would be on your side. However, I don't. The societies in the Pearl of Great Price (Zion), Book of Mormon and New Testament that held all things in common and had no poor among them all fall under the broad umbrella of socialism according to the definition that I accept.

On the other side we have "Socialism" defined as the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" by Marx.

One COULD argue that we are "compelled" by each and every law we are "forced" to obey including speed laws.

As in everything in the world of ideas, it all depends on definitions- ie- ideas, doesn't it?

I would only suggest that perhaps this is beyond the scope of this thread, and yes even this forum since the court is still "out"on 2000 years of political theory which has yet to reach a unanimous state of agreement on these issues, and indeed never will.

But yes, if I feel the government is compelling me to do something, i do not want to do and which I think is unreasonable, indeed is that something I can be "wrong" about?

I think I know how the founding fathers would, and did, react to that question.

Greece, here we come! Yay! European Union- here we come! Yay!

Oh no of course with OUR genius WE will get it right where no one has before.

Uh huh.

Edited May 3, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

lol Calmoriah!

Hey, think John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever....very sexy in those platform shoes.

Another movie I have managed to never watch. My sister thought he was hot, me not.

[Calm]

Topped off with a leisure suit, I am sorry to say.

Wade, Wade....I am sad to say I may never have the same level of respect I have held for you in the past.

[Log]

Only because you have now discovered how much shorter you are than him in his platform shoes.

[Calm]

so ... please no more bell-bottoms and hi-rise trousers.

Sorry, posted before reading this....I will refrain from any further digressions.

To make up for my contribution to such, I will just mention that instead of having to cut and paste when not able to read a post due to small fonts, you can use the "zoom" button, it's the command button and plus sign together on my computer.

Edited May 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[wenglund]

Only because you have now discovered how much shorter you are than him in his platform shoes.

But, wouldn't that increase how much she would have to look up to me? LOL

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mfbukowski]

That's right. And I hope the young pups around here haven't deluded themselves into believing they can out hippie us old hippies. We were a part of the movement that put lib into liberal and rad into radical.

That is exactly precisely the point. And we have discovered it doesn't work. There is someone who is making decisions for you who is more "enlightened" than you are- that's wonderful if you think you will get to serve as a decision maker- after all, each of us knows what the other guy should be doing with his life, right?

Wrong. Wait until you get a draft notice to go to Iraq or Afghanistan (to bring it into modern parlance) to "serve your country" when you cannot even figure out why we are there.

Oddly enough- the hippie movement was also at least for me perhaps paradoxically the beginning of conservatism- I didn't then want "the man" telling me what I had to do and don't want that now either. But of course I knew that the dictatorship of the proletariat was something we really needed- we had to re-distribute the wealth and take the power from the military industrial complex.

And give it to us! We knew better than they did!! Free everything for everyone! (including drugs- AND other things to take away pain- like food clothing and shelter, as long as no one had to work for the military industrial complex!- all of these of course give a sense of false security)

The fact is. of course we didn't know what was better for everyone.

That's the problem. No one does. Only YOU know what is best for YOU.

[mfbukowski]

OK- sorry for spouting off

[wenglund]

That is exactly precisely the point. And we have discovered it doesn't work.

To me, this last sentence is even more to the point. We've been there, done that, and found it didn't work.

Yet, it seems as though each successive generation needs to learn this for themselves (history repeating itself).

And, since I hope for forgiveness from past generation for not learning from their mistakes, it is incumbent upon me to be merciful to the rising generations who seem bent on following my youthful indiscretions, having the hope that they too will one day see the light.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

I participated in several "sit-ins" and protests against the Vietnam war and for racial integration. As mentioned here before, the race riots in Seattle broke out at the amusement park where I worked. Even at Ricks college I was the most radically-minded student there, which may not be saying much, though I did organize the campus chapter and was president of the leftist organization: Students for a More Democratic Society, and participated in what to my knowledge was the only peace rally/concert held at the school. I also found myself in the Dean's office several times because of my radical behavior. [...] my first year back at BYU I was involved in an underground dorm newspaper, the editor of which later went on to form Sunstone Magazine.

That is pretty bada$$, Wade. Props. Us young 'uns have to get what we know from mere book learnin' -- stuff like Power and the Idealists is pretty interesting, but it's just not the same as living it, y'know? I'll try to keep the flame alive for you old coots -- if I end up descending into y'all's brand of conservatism someday, feel free to say you told me so. *grin*