Why Are Church Finances Kept Secret From The Members?

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

Did public disclosure keep BY from mixing Church funds with his own?

Would public exposure of your financial dealings help you safeguard your income amounts, sources, and expenditures better?

I'm content with the Church auditing department. The question is why aren't you?

Edited April 8, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[wenglund]

I think accountability is extremely important to any organization that uses donated finds (yes, even God's church).

Accountability is important. It is also a function of stewardship and lines of authority. Since this is Christ's church, his chosen leaders are accountable to him and the hierarchy he has established.

Where the busy-bodies get it wrong is they mistakenly assume that the church leaders are accountable to the busy-bodies, whereas it is the other way around. The thinking of the busy-bodies is upside-down.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[blackstrap]

Very little in this world is YOURS. Think your paid off house is yours? Stop paying municiple taxes for a couple of years and see who really owns your house. Think your body is yours? Die under suspicious circumstances and see who really has control over your body. Think the money you earn is yours? Take a look at your paycheck and see how much you actually have to spend.

[Log]

For me, the two biggest reasons are these:

1. The leaders of the Church have had times when they did a good job managing the money, and times when they did not so good.

2. If the Church leaders are acting through revelation to manage Church finances, then the financial statement is scripture. If they're not acting via revelation, then see #1.

Hi Cinepro,

I've taken the liberty of eliminating from your post all statements which encompass their own negation, as well as your personal opinions.

What's left doesn't look so good.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Log

[Kenngo1969]

I like specific dispersment accountings. This is no different than requesting a receipt for any purchases I make with cash or card.

OK then. You got your receipt each time you kept the yellow copy when you filled out a donation slip. Problem solved.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Kenngo1969

[Bikeemikey]

I am a full tithe payer and honestly couldn't careless if the church discloses the information.

If and when members of the church that are full tithe payers insist on this form of transparency from the church, the church policy may change. I certainly see no reason to for the church to change it's financial reporting practices because people who don't pay tithing want to know how the church spends its money.

Also, due to the fact that tithe payers are faithful members of the church the likelihood of us kicking up a fuss sufficient for the church to need to change it's policy is slim.

When i pay my tithe I put it in the envelope and give it to the right priesthood leader. From that point on God knows I have paid my tithe. If that leaders losses it, steals it, or puts it in the church bank account I couldn't careless. I pay my tithe to the lord, the church use of the funds is at best a secondary consideration.

[cinepro]

I'm content with the Church auditing department. The question is why aren't you?

I guess ultimately it comes down to my testimony that the Lord calls fallible men to lead his Church and allows them to make mistakes. Even big mistakes.

The more I believe that, the more I believe a little sunshine on the books would be a good thing. And when I compare the churches who do open their books with those who don't, I certainly can't see any downside to it.

Edited April 8, 2012 by cinepro

[Bikeemikey]

Perhaps the Church books are the equivalent to the gold plates of old. They had to be taken from the earth - if they had stayed around it would have been to easy to prove the truth of the restored gospel.

Likewise, to open the books would show the profound perfection of revelation and finally demonstrate that the church has never ever ever ever made a fiscal mistake. We have always bought and sold stocks at the right time etc etc.

Such utter perfection could only be explained by the truth of the restored gospel revelation priesthood power etc etc.

Thus the lord must keep such perfection hidden from us lest he remove the need for faith and force an early millennial era.

[Damien the Leper]

Valentinus:

Once you give it to someone it isn't YOUR money.

It was MY money to give. If I am to continue to donate then I REQUIRE where MY money went in regards to its use. If people dont want donations for their causes because of a SIMPLE request such as this then so be it.

[Bikeemikey]

It was MY money to give. If I am to continue to donate then I REQUIRE where MY money went in regards to its use. If people dont want donations for their causes because of a SIMPLE request such as this then so be it.

If lots of tithing paying members shared this thought then the church would likely disclose. Tithing paying members in general don't require this. If a major fall off in tithing payments were to occur and this was the primary cause we would likely see a major shift.

[KevinG]

I've seen lots of people discussing City Creek and/or whether or not the church gives enough money to the poor, but most of the discussion around those issues is completely speculative until budget information is released. I've been surprised that apologists (who are usually a pretty imaginative bunch) have a difficult time coming up with reasons why the budget might be secret. I've never been able to think of any good reasons myself.

Go do your homework and stop trolling. The last time I posted links to previous discussions and there was plenty of discussion about open records. Your unwillingness to find that information (which is easily available in this forum) tells me you have nothing better to do than whine.

[Damien the Leper]

OK then. You got your receipt each time you kept the yellow copy when you filled out a donation slip. Problem solved.

Incorrect. This is where I allocated my money. I want documentation from Salt Lake that those funds went exactly where they were supposed to and exactly how they were used specifically. If my 5 bucks went to the printing of a Greek Book of Mormon then I want to know that.

Still not asking for much. I don't see what the problem is.

[KevinG]

Ouch! Hope you didn't end up with any slivers where they ... don't belong!

No slivers but I've experienced some healthy exfoliation.

[KevinG]

If my 5 bucks went to the printing of a Greek Book of Mormon then I want to know that.

Still not asking for much. I don't see what the problem is.

Nah- that's not asking too much.

Only an open invitation to every second guesser and Monday morning quarterback in the church to attempt to micromanage the Presiding Bishopric and Managing directors of church auxiliaries.

[Darth_Bill]

So, I will grant you that once you give the money, you lose control over it. Now, what can you do if you don't give money in this organization.

Well, most priesthood functions are out.

Not sure about callings you are disqualified for.

Temple is out of the question.

Your worthiness can be called into question because you are questioning the brethren.

There are probably other strong feelings from family and friends that would need to be overcome because of your inability to care for your family the way a good LDS person should.

WMWJB - What mall would Jesus build?

[KevinG]

Sigh. It is not your money once you donate it. It is the Lord's money and His authorized servants are responsible for its distribution.

The next time someone says "appearance of impropriety" I'm going to ask "find me a single example of graft, theft or misuse of funds that wasn't swiftly and strictly dealt with by the brethren."

[JAHS]

If you live in Great Britain or Canada you can see all the finances reports of the church for those countries as required by their laws

Great Britain

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/SHOWCHARITY/RegisterOfCharities/DocumentList.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=242451&SubsidiaryNumber=0&DocType=AccountList

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/SHOWCHARITY/RegisterOfCharities/DocumentList.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=274605&SubsidiaryNumber=0&DocType=AccountList

Canada

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/haip/srch/basicsearchresult-eng.action?s=registered&k=latter-day&b=true&p=1#pageControl

[wenglund]

It was MY money to give. If I am to continue to donate then I REQUIRE where MY money went in regards to its use. If people don't want donations for their causes because of a SIMPLE request such as this then so be it.

You are certainly free to set the conditions for you giving. That is your business.

The Lord and his church are free to set the conditions upon which they will receive and handle the gifts and offerings. That is their business.

How about you take care of your business, and leave the Lord and the church to take care of theirs?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[KevinG]

WMWJB - What mall would Jesus build?

I'm pretty sure he would have invested in a good carpenter's shop.

If we LDS are correct (and I think we are) He has approved His servants the investment in Down Town Salt Lake including colleges, business property, church office space and the Crossroads Mall.

[KevinG]

If you live in Great Britain or Canada you can see all the finances reports of the church for those countries as required by their laws

Great Britain

http://www.charity-c...ype=AccountList

http://www.charity-c...ype=AccountList

Canada

http://www.cra-arc.g...p=1#pageControl

Interesting - at a quick glance the church put more money into charitable causes in Great Britain than it collected from the members there. Building chapels, running the chapels, feeding the poor... what a shameful example of excess.

I'm sure those who are complaining about the church not releasing its financials are eagerly pouring over this resource in order to assuage their curiosity. I'm curious too- what is your impression of these statements?

[wenglund]

So, I will grant you that once you give the money, you lose control over it. Now, what can you do if you don't give money in this organization.

Well, most priesthood functions are out.

Not sure about callings you are disqualified for.

Temple is out of the question.

Your worthiness can be called into question because you are questioning the brethren.

There are probably other strong feelings from family and friends that would need to be overcome because of your inability to care for your family the way a good LDS person should.

Were you thinking that someone who doesn't obey the law of tithing should still receive the blessings of that law, and not received the punishment for disobedience to that law? (BTW, the law of tithing isn't contingent upon the church disclosing its finances. In fact, such is entirely irrelevant to the law.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 8, 2012 by wenglund

[KevinG]

What the heck are you talking about Darth?

Other than being the person who gives you a Temple recommend there is no one who would even know if you were a full time tithe payer.

Now if you went around bragging to members and family that you don't pay tithes and disagree with how the brethren run the church that is a whole 'nuther set of problems that you have created for yourself.

[Darth_Bill]

I'm pretty sure he would have invested in a good carpenter's shop.

If we LDS are correct (and I think we are) He has approved His servants the investment in Down Town Salt Lake including colleges, business property, church office space and the Crossroads Mall.

It certainly is an interesting proposition. And I've been on the receiving end, believe me. Proud grad of BYU. I know that these investments are supposedly for increasing the foundation of the church so that more good can be done...I'll buy that proposition. Still, not being able to get even an idea that that is even occurring is somewhat of a headscratcher. We were asked to donate funds specifically for temple building. Does a temple cost 2b? Did any of the church investments get liquidated for our temple projects? What about all the welfare farms that are more commercial in nature now? Are the funds gathered by selling those goods on the open market rolled into the more traditional humanitarian causes? I'd love to say yes, enthusiastically. Really, I would. But I don't know. I have no idea. All I have is trust in the leaders.

And 2b is a massive amount of money. For a mall. Paid for by a church. Oh well.

[ERayR]

Can I please get an itemized report for my records and tax information? This isn't too much to ask...after all its just a receipt of where exactly my donations and tithes went.

Once you give your donation, the operative word is give, it is no longer your donation. Once given it belongs to the recipient. That goes to any gift given to any recipient. If you are disatisfied don't give.

[KevinG]

And 2b is a massive amount of money. For a mall. Paid for by a church. Oh well.

1.5 b for the mall. 3.5 for the other projects.

If anyone else private invested 5 b in a downtown area like this I can't imagine anyone whining about it.