Why Are Church Finances Kept Secret From The Members?

[Log]

Oh, I see. You guys want the Church's financials because you care so much for the poor.

You know who else took the same position?

[ERayR]

Goodwill provides it to anybody.

http://www.goodwill....us/our-mission/

That is their prerogative should the choose. However, it is not yours to command just because you made a donation.

[Darth_Bill]

What the heck are you talking about Darth?

Other than being the person who gives you a Temple recommend there is no one who would even know if you were a full time tithe payer.

Now if you went around bragging to members and family that you don't pay tithes and disagree with how the brethren run the church that is a whole 'nuther set of problems that you have created for yourself.

If you don't have a temple recommend, for whatever reason, the bishop has the right to interview to see if you are able to perform an ordinance (well, he always does). If you don't tithe, you can't have a recommend, and that question comes up.

I'm having my own questions about the church, that only a few close family members know about. I let my recommend expire. My children are getting to the age of baptism, ordination, things like that. I am very, very aware of the expectations and limitations I have on me. My bishop knows of my struggles, and he is a hard liner, so....I have a lot of issues. It is very difficult to have struggles of faith in this point in my life right now due to cultural expectations.

But that isn't my beef here. The mall raises other questions for me. I've seen too many members struggle....and then there is crossroads.

[KevinG]

The mall and the disclosure of the amount of the project is a perfect example of why I suspect the LDS church keeps its books closed to the general public or those members who have no stewardship over the funds. (they aren't truly closed because those who have need of the information to run their wards, stakes and auxiliaries have access to the records.)

But in this one example we have the perpetual whining, second guessing and inflation of the one figure revealed. The very people complaining about the openness of the records are behaving in a way that convinces me the decision to keep them close to the vest is inspired.

[Darth_Bill]

1.5 b for the mall. 3.5 for the other projects.

If anyone else private invested 5 b in a downtown area like this I can't imagine anyone whining about it.

Darn straight! No problem at all. None. Not even a bit of a whine. Praise be the capitalist system!

When a church does it, yeah, you'll get questioned.

[KevinG]

If you don't have a temple recommend, for whatever reason, the bishop has the right to interview to see if you are able to perform an ordinance (well, he always does). If you don't tithe, you can't have a recommend, and that question comes up.

I'm having my own questions about the church, that only a few close family members know about. I let my recommend expire. My children are getting to the age of baptism, ordination, things like that. I am very, very aware of the expectations and limitations I have on me. My bishop knows of my struggles, and he is a hard liner, so....I have a lot of issues. It is very difficult to have struggles of faith in this point in my life right now due to cultural expectations.

But that isn't my beef here. The mall raises other questions for me. I've seen too many members struggle....and then there is crossroads.

If those other things weren't your issue then why did you bring them up. It looks like you are just making stuff up to argue with.

I do not have a current recommend for personal reasons and I've been able to participate in every ordinance and program of the Church outside of the Temple.

Nonpayment of tithing has two earthly consequences and that is loss of a Temple recommend and the Bishop may restrict access to monetary assistance. Even those weeks where I tithe $0 because I make no money I still have access to assistance. There are no other disciplinary or non-disciplinary actions taken other than those.

[Bikeemikey]

While I have no issue with the

I'm pretty sure he would have invested in a good carpenter's shop.

If we LDS are correct (and I think we are) He has approved His servants the investment in Down Town Salt Lake including colleges, business property, church office space and the Crossroads Mall.

While I have no issue with the choice the church made in investing in the Mall and other real estate I think it may be unnecessary to elevate the decision to one that is directly sanctioned by God and has it's root in a direct revelatory mandate.

It is obvious good business financially (at least it look that way when it started and is unlikely to be a bad investment over the entire period of time we own it). It is obviously good for the church aesthetically, it keeps the downtown area there looking nice. It's a win win. Not sure what kind of revelatory pronouncement is needed to do something that is a good idea, even if it is a massive upfront investment for a long term return.

[KevinG]

Darn straight! No problem at all. None. Not even a bit of a whine. Praise be the capitalist system!

When a church does it, yeah, you'll get questioned.

Why the double standard? Especially in light of the amount of charitable and ministry work done by the church that other private entities do not participate in? I smell hypocrisy.

[KevinG]

While I have no issue with the

While I have no issue with the choice the church made in investing in the Mall and other real estate I think it may be unnecessary to elevate the decision to one that is directly sanctioned by God and has it's root in a direct revelatory mandate.

Not sure what kind of revelatory pronouncement is needed to do something that is a good idea, even if it is a massive upfront investment for a long term return.

Play along. Anti-Mormons can't portray the brethren as scheming power hungry manipulators if you keep making common sense arguments.

[ERayR]

Is the Church a 501©3 organization?

Yes

[ERayR]

I'm glad you're completely at ease over the issue, but I think accountability is extremely important to any organization that uses donated finds (yes, even God's church). It makes perfect sense to me that people who donate money freely to an organization ought to know where that money is going. Yes, many church members would never dream of steadying the ark or even implicitly criticizing the way the church is run, but no one can doubt that financial secrecy raises a huge red flag to most outsiders. Of course, maybe that doesn't matter.

Those who administer the church funds are accountable to the church leaders who are accountable to God. They are not accountable to you. As a 501 © 3 They are required to file IRS reports.

[citizen28]

I do know there are enough checks and balances and auditing that if there is anything misused it will come to light and action will be taken. Years ago I knew of a bishop in our stake who was excommunicated for embezzlement. It is not easy to hide such actions in the church. Because I see the church buildings and temples and supplies and maintenance and see all the efforts to give humanitarian aide and to help those poor in the wards it is not hard to see that the money is well spent and going where it should.

I honestly don't think most members would have any problem with where the money is going. Critics are another story, but the church doesn't care what they think. My real question is "Why the lack of full disclosure?", and I've yet to come up with any good reason for it.

[citizen28]

If you live in Great Britain or Canada you can see all the finances reports of the church for those countries as required by their laws

Great Britain

http://www.charity-c...ype=AccountList

http://www.charity-c...ype=AccountList

Canada

http://www.cra-arc.g...p=1#pageControl

This is an excellent resource. Thanks for this!

[ERayR]

Once again, it's not your stewardship and those who may not have done a good job managing will have answer to those above them. They have outside audits done also which insures the accuracy of the books. Anyone who questions how the money is spent is free to stop giving at any time.

In addition Federal tax Form 990 is available upon request.

[ERayR]

Incorrect. This is where I allocated my money. I want documentation from Salt Lake that those funds went exactly where they were supposed to and exactly how they were used specifically. If my 5 bucks went to the printing of a Greek Book of Mormon then I want to know that.

Still not asking for much. I don't see what the problem is.

Have you got some way for them to track your dollars? Donate traceable dollars and it can be tracked. Until then when it is mixed with all the rest it becomes indistinguishable.

[Damien the Leper]

Nah- that's not asking too much.

Only an open invitation to every second guesser and Monday morning quarterback in the church to attempt to micromanage the Presiding Bishopric and Managing directors of church auxiliaries.

It was my money to give therefore it is mine to micro-manage.

[Damien the Leper]

You are certainly free to set the conditions for you giving. That is your business.

The Lord and his church are free to set the conditions upon which they will receive and handle the gifts and offerings. That is their business.

How about you take care of your business, and leave the Lord and the church to take care of theirs?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I assume responsibility for the money that leaves my hands and into anothers. I am also accountable for the appropriate use of such funds.

I'm not going to give a homeless bum five bucks and tell them God Bless and have a nice day. I will take them to a restaurant and buy them a meal and enjoy some semblance of conversation though.

[ERayR]

It was my money to give therefore it is mine to micro-manage.

What part of give" do yo not understand? To give is to relinquish control to another. It is your money to give right up to the time you give it. From that time forward it is no longer yours to micro-manage.

[Damien the Leper]

Have you got some way for them to track your dollars? Donate traceable dollars and it can be tracked. Until then when it is mixed with all the rest it becomes indistinguishable.

That doesn't seem well organized. If a church of 14 million members can't provide itemized reports of monies allocated and by who and what portions went where, as my 40 year CPA uncle would say, then that's just bad book keeping. He was a notorious records holder. Whether it be 50 people or millions book keeping can still be better maintained and the records for individuals should be accessible upon request.

[Damien the Leper]

What part of give" do yo not understand? To give is to relinquish control to another. It is your money to give right up to the time you give it. From that time forward it is no longer yours to micro-manage.

Then that shows my lack of responsibility.

[Deborah]

It was my money to give therefore it is mine to micro-manage.

So when your employer gives you your paycheck they have the right to tell you how to spend it?

[ERayR]

That doesn't seem well organized. If a church of 14 million members can't provide itemized reports of monies allocated and by who and what portions went where, as my 40 year CPA uncle would say, then that's just bad book keeping. He was a notorious records holder. Whether it be 50 people or millions book keeping can still be better maintained and the records for individuals should be accessible upon request.

Dollars are fungible. That means that one dollar pretty much looks like another dollar. When donations are recorded all the dollars are put together in the bank. They are then mixed with other dollars from other sources. Now tell me which dollars you donated and how it differed from all the other dollars so as to be able to identify it and we can tell you exactly where your dollars were used. Until you can do that you are simply making noise. It is not a problem with bookkeeping. The problem is identifying your dollars as the ones spent on your approved categories. So why don't you just assume your dollars were spent where you wanted them spent and mine were used to spend for your unapproved expenditures?

[wenglund]

I assume responsibility for the money that leaves my hands and into anothers. I am also accountable for the appropriate use of such funds.

Again, you can set the conditions for what you are willing to give and under what conditions you are willing to give. That is your business.

Likewise, the church can set the conditions under which it will receive gifts and how it will use them. This is their business, not yours.

Why is this simple concept so hard for you to understand?

I'm not going to give a homeless bum five bucks and tell them God Bless and have a nice day. I will take them to a restaurant and buy them a meal and enjoy some semblance of conversation though.

That is fine for you.

However, if the homeless bum, as you call him or her, didn't accept your gift under those conditions, then what he or she may then do with the donations that he or she receives, is none of your business. Do you get this?

The church doesn't receive donations under the conditions you suggest, and this in large part because such conditions defy the spirit, if not the letter, of the law of tithes and offerings. So, what the church has received in donations, and how they use those donations, are none of your business.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[cinepro]

Salvation Army reports theirs too:

http://annualreport....ionarmyusa.org/

I wonder what it says about a church that chooses to report their financials?

It's also interesting to see the arguments that are made from assumption. Like it's a bad thing to want a Church corporation that asks its members for money in the name of God to account for that money. Like the Church is the first organization in the history of mankind that won't make any mistakes with its money, not counting the previous mistakes it has made.

I suspect that for all the churches that have been listed in this thread showing their financial reports, very few people actually care enough to look at them. If that's the case, are they wasting their time? Are they fools for doing it when they don't have to? Does it mean their members have less faith in their leaders?

And what might be some good reasons for the Salvation Army, Seventh-day Adventists, Baptists or others to stop publishing their financials? Other than making the LDS look bad, of course.

Edited April 8, 2012 by cinepro

[Thinking]

So when your employer gives you your paycheck they have the right to tell you how to spend it?

This is a bad example since a paycheck is not a donation.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Thinking