Was Nephi A Murderer?

[Log]

Joseph Smith instituted plural marriage. This represented a significant departure from his cultural norms. While the prophets before him made provision for plural marriage, its practice was a shock to the sensitivities of the Victorian age.

It's not hard to see why. Any spouses who feel for each other as spouses should would naturally cringe from the practice of plural marriage. Indeed, barring a direct commandment, it seems no man or woman, with true love in their hearts, and in their right mind, would engage in such a thing.

Therefore, it always strikes me as odd that someone might affirm Joseph was a prophet of God, and yet flatly declare that his actions in instituting the practice of plural marriage were contrary to the will of God.

So, let's look at another case where a prophet did something not only distasteful, but apparently broke a commandment.

Nephi killed Laban. Would it occur to anyone who believes the Book of Mormon account to say Nephi was a murderer?

He claimed to have been acting under the constraint of the Spirit of the Lord. How would an outsider know that Nephi was telling the truth?

There is only one way possible - by direct revelation.

Likewise, with Joseph Smith, how can you know he did what God told him to do? More than that, if you know by revelation that Joseph was a true prophet, which is the only way you can know such a thing, why would it occur to you to think that he was disobeying God in instituting plural marriage?

What is the trail of feeling in your heart that would motivate this rejection?

[Stargazer]

Technically, I suppose Nephi was a murderer, though for some reason I quail at so describing him. That's human law, of course, or rather it is God's law. If God should demand an exception be made, somehow I don't think Nephi needed to repent for it.

In the case of Joseph Smith, I do imagine that he recoiled at the notion of re-introducing plural marriage, with his personal involvement.

As for Moses, After the Midianites sent beautiful women to the Israelite camp to seduce the young men to partake in idolatry, which proved successful, God then commanded Moses to kill and hang the heads of everyone who had engaged in idolatry, and Moses ordered the judges to carry out the mass execution. Eventually God commanded the Israelite soldiers to go and kill every Midianite woman, boy, and non-virgin girl, while virgin girls were shared amongst the soldiers.

You can complain that if God is a myth and a fiction, then Moses if he existed at all was a mass murderer, Nephi was a fictional character, and Joseph Smith was a randy adulterer. But if God lives, Moses was a real prophet, and so was Joseph Smith, then the only thing you can say is that you don't like it that God commanded those things. In that case the men were justified in their actions.

[kolipoki09]

I think in this case it would be important to define what you mean by "murder." In my own understanding, and by the common historical definition, murder would imply that an injustice has been done. Thus, for me at least, a discussion of the justness of Nephi's act is probably a better way to frame it.

Based on the limited information we have about Laban from the Book of Mormon narrative, we can probably all agree that Laban wasn't an easy guy to deal with.

Twice Laban had threatened to kill Nephi and/or his brothers. Laban's reaction each time they asked for their genealogy seems to suggest that there was bad blood between the (distantly-related?) families of Laban and Lehi. Under the law of Moses (Exodus 21:23-25) Nephi may very well have found justification. The Law would have required Laban to pay back what he'd stolen from them, but Laban had issued a death warrant in order to bypass paying back the debt (plus interest). That would have likely warranted capital punishment, even absent of a direct revelation from God. But I think Nephi's case is unique in the sense that he probably would have never killed Laban unless he received a direct commandment to do so. Nephi didn't lust after violence or death. One might (ironically) call it a pre-emptive act of self defense, but I would certainly hesitate to call it murder.

[Log]

Suppose you didn't know about Nephi's past interactions with Laban, but only the immediate circumstances of Nephi's killing of Laban, and that Nephi was constrained by God to kill Laban - you heard that from him, let's say, and only that. Suppose you knew, by revelation, that Nephi was a prophet, and had received that testimony after the killing.

Would you believe, in your heart, that Nephi murdered Laban? Or would you withhold judgement until you knew for sure? Or would you believe Nephi's claim that God constrained him on his word?

What accounts for the difference between these potential reactions?

[kolipoki09]

Would you believe, in your heart, that Nephi murdered Laban? Or would you withhold judgement until you knew for sure? Or would you believe Nephi's claim that God constrained him on his word?

What accounts for the difference between these potential reactions?

Does God command murder? I think we can safely say that he allows it in the sense that he gives us our agency. But then again, wouldn't murder imply an unlawful killing? If I knew Nephi personally, had received a confirmation of the Spirit that he was a prophet, and he told me that he had been commanded by God to kill another person, I think it would be safe to say that in 600 B.C. I'd give Nephi the benefit of the doubt that he was telling the truth.

[Log]

... I think it would be safe to say that in 600 B.C. I'd give Nephi the benefit of the doubt that he was telling the truth.

Me too. So what do we think if we run into an individual who affirms they know Nephi to be a prophet, yet who apparently believes that Nephi murdered Laban (yes, at the least meaning having violated God's law on the matter)?

Edited April 6, 2012 by Log

[DarkScythe]

Nephi is a killer yet not a murderer. there is a world of difference. Don't forget Laban is a very corrupted leader. Men like Laban usually in today's world, would have either stayed in prison for many good years or had an accident by a rival. Sometimes, bad people deserve to die due to their wickedness.

[Alan]

Nephi was probably guilty of murder in a British court of law today. He was probably also guilty of murder in an American frontier court of the 19th century.

In truth, he was probably as guilty of murder as Moses was.

[Cobalt-70]

Nephi is a killer yet not a murderer. there is a world of difference. Don't forget Laban is a very corrupted leader. Men like Laban usually in today's world, would have either stayed in prison for many good years or had an accident by a rival. Sometimes, bad people deserve to die due to their wickedness.

That the victim was a "bad guy" or "deserved it" has never been a justification for homicide. Not today, and not in ancient Jerusalem. Any time you cut off the head of a person who was unconscious, after deliberating about it in a calculated way, you have committed murder. Not manslaughter, not self defense, but premeditated murder. Nephi was a murderer. But apparently, we have to conclude that it's okay to murder someone if you feel prompted to do so by the Spirit. Abraham was in the same boat, but he was guilty only of attempted murder.

The only problem is, what if you think that the Holy Spirit is prompting you to kill somebody, but actually you're mistaken. I think that's what happened in the Mountain Meadows massacre.

Start a new thread if you want to talk about MMM.

[Log]

Cobalt-70, your theory on the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and any other backhanded criticism of the Church, has no place in this thread.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Log

[Senator]

But if God lives, Moses was a real prophet, and so was Joseph Smith, then the only thing you can say is that you don't like it that God commanded those things. In that case the men were justified in their actions.

That's the only thing one can say?

One cannot say that prophets of God are mortal fallible men, even in their interpretations of the mind and will of God?

One cannot say that "some commandments are of God, some of men, and some of the devil"?

There's a lot things one can say.

[DBMormon]

I think if we are all honest Nephi early in his life portrayed himself as a goody two shoes and it came of very self centered. Later in life he is much more humble. While his whole record is written after they get to the new world it is obvious to me it is at two opposite ends of his life. I think Nephi felt some remorse for this act later in his life. I think he recoginized by the spirit that this was the only option to fulfill the request to get the brass plates.

Did we ever consider this - Jacob in the BOM tells leaves leaway that God may at some future point call on his people to take more then one wife. He indeed does that calling Jospeh to put polygamy into practice. It is too hard for him to do. He does so rather then rebel against God. At some point this becomes so painful that he searches for an alternative way to accomplish this. So in order to fulfill what God has asked and yet be clean in his own conscience he seals other men's wives to him but never sees these as sexual relationships. Fertile man..... no known children. He filled what God asked in a way that allowed him to still do his best to be upright. just a thought

[Kenngo1969]

Here are two of the best treatments of the question I have run across:

http://www.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=1&num=1&id=7

http://www.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=16&num=1&id=430

Happy reading!

Edited April 6, 2012 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

That the victim was a "bad guy" or "deserved it" has never been a justification for homicide. Not today, and not in ancient Jerusalem. Any time you cut off the head of a person who was unconscious, after deliberating about it in a calculated way, you have committed murder. Not manslaughter, not self defense, but premeditated murder. Nephi was a murderer. But apparently, we have to conclude that it's okay to murder someone if you feel prompted to do so by the Spirit. Abraham was in the same boat, but he was guilty only of attempted murder.

Cobalt, apparently I've underestimated you. Would you mind giving me a thumbnail sketch of the credentials which qualify you to make the judgments you make against Nephi and against Abraham? Your judgment seems very rooted in 21st-century norms, laws, and mores. Shouldn't we judge Nephi on the basis of the norms, laws, and mores in place during his time rather than according to those in place in our time? The articles I link to above attempt to do that. Have you considered them?

[Log]

Here are two of the best treatments of the question I have run across:

http://www.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=1&num=1&id=7

http://www.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=16&num=1&id=430

Happy reading!

Actually - sadly - this isn't relevant to the question in the OP. But thanks for those.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Log

[Kenngo1969]

Actually - sadly - this isn't relevant to the question in the OP. But thanks for those.

It's your thread; you can take it in whatever direction you wish, and I certainly don't mean to derail it, but honestly, I'm baffled as to why you would consider the links nonresponsive or not germane to the question you posed. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

P.S.: I'm especially baffled why you would dismiss Professor Welch's work.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Kenngo1969

[Deborah]

I consider what Nephi did more a matter of carrying out justice (according to the rights and laws of the time) as Laban had stolen the records in the first place and threatened Nephi and his brothers; so it was also a matter of self-defense and the Lord explained to him what would happen if Laban was not killed.

Polygamy is a different matter and it is only evil when it is done outside the commandment of God and without the Priesthood.

[Log]

It's your thread; you can take it in whatever direction you wish, and I certainly don't mean to derail it, but honestly, I'm baffled as to why you would consider the links nonresponsive or not germane to the question you posed. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

P.S.: I'm especially baffled why you would dismiss Professor Welch's work.

Because the issue isn't whether Nephi is, or is not, a murderer, but rather what would motivate someone who believed Nephi is a prophet to consider him a murderer.

I'm trying to get an insight into the feelings of those who claim to have a testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet and yet claim his institution of plural marriage was not of God.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Log

[Kenngo1969]

Because the issue isn't whether Nephi is, or is not, a murderer, but rather what would motivate someone who believed Nephi is a prophet to consider him a murderer.

I'm trying to get an insight into the feelings of those who claim to have a testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet and yet claim his institution of plural marriage was not of God.

Fair enough. I suppose you're right, then, because I don't think Nephi was a murderer, and I do think he was a prophet ... so I don't think I have anything to contribute. (Nonetheless, the works linked above certainly factor into my thinking on the subject.)

[The Mean Farmer]

My $0.02 cents.

Nephi and his older brothers were all confused at the potentially standard camping trip that Lehi said they needed to go on. At start of this journey it may have been a confusing time for these brothers wondering why they needed to go out into the desert for a few days. I think there is a possibility that they felt that the needed to go with their family and when a time had past, or Lehi came to his senses, they would return home. These were people that had been religiously celebrating for centruies that they had been came to The Promised Land, captured it, and continued to live there. Suddenly in the wliderness Lehi starts talking about going to The Promised Land, which by religion and culture they would have been LEAVING the promised land. Confusing.

However, after the brothers first trip back to the city they would have left without their earthly riches, and been seen as theives, kidnappers, and murderers.

In essense, they weren't going back. Ever. They couldn't. The Lord had a different plan for them that they didn't understand and gave them no other way to go but to follow Him out into the wilderness.

The Lords design was to cause events that ensured that this family couldn't and wouldn't go back. Laban served a purpose in this design.

[Cobalt-70]

Cobalt-70, your theory on the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and any other backhanded criticism of the Church, has no place in this thread.

This is not a comment on the LDS Church, but a comment on the horribly misguided stake presidents and bishops who ordered and supervised the massacre, while thinking that their actions were justified by the Spirit and by LDS doctrine. I see the massacre as a warning to us all not be so sure of ourselves when we think God is telling us to do something that would shock most people's conscience.

I'm also posing the question of what if Nephi wasn't sure if he was truly prompted by the Holy Spirit to commit the murder? What would it take for you to be convinced that God wanted you to murder someone?

You were told to make a new thread instead of derailing this one. You are out of the discussion.

[Thinking]

The story of Nephi is one of the things which caused me to question the Book of Mormon.

Before Nephi was commanded to kill Laban, he and his brothers had already petitioned Laban, been rejected and chased away.

And it came to pass that we did flee before the servants of Laban, and we were obliged to leave behind our property, and it fell into the hands of Laban. And it came to pass that we fled into the wilderness, and the servants of Laban did not overtake us, and we hid ourselves in the cavity of a rock. (1 Nephi 3:26-27)

In the last attempt to get the plates Nephi discovered Laban drunk and passed out on the street.

Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the house of Laban I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he was drunken with wine. And when I came to him I found that it was Laban. (1 Nephi 4:7-8

Nephi draws Laban's sword, wrestles with the decision to kill laban, then finally cuts off his head, retrieves the plates, and convinces one of Laban's servants to join him.

Why couldn't Nephi have accomplised the same thing without killing Laban? Laban was already passed out drunk. What would call more attention (if somebody had walked by the scene), a passed out naked drunk man or a naked man with his head cut off? Also, with Laban drunk and passed out, how is he going to send his servants after Nephi? Nephi and his brothers had already escaped before. With a substantial head start surely they would be able to escape again, especially since Nephi was "a man large in stature, and also having received much strength of the Lord." (1 Nephi 4:31)

[altersteve]

My $0.02 cents.

Nephi and his older brothers were all confused at the potentially standard camping trip that Lehi said they needed to go on. At start of this journey it may have been a confusing time for these brothers wondering why they needed to go out into the desert for a few days. I think there is a possibility that they felt that the needed to go with their family and when a time had past, or Lehi came to his senses, they would return home. These were people that had been religiously celebrating for centruies that they had been came to The Promised Land, captured it, and continued to live there. Suddenly in the wliderness Lehi starts talking about going to The Promised Land, which by religion and culture they would have been LEAVING the promised land. Confusing.

However, after the brothers first trip back to the city they would have left without their earthly riches, and been seen as theives, kidnappers, and murderers.

In essense, they weren't going back. Ever. They couldn't. The Lord had a different plan for them that they didn't understand and gave them no other way to go but to follow Him out into the wilderness.

The Lords design was to cause events that ensured that this family couldn't and wouldn't go back. Laban served a purpose in this design.

I never thought about it that way. That's awesome.