Age Of Presidency

[jskains]

Joseph Smith is one of the youngest Presidents by a wide margin. Does anyone wonder if a younger Presidency will ever be chosen and if there would be an impact for such an event?

JMS

[LeSellers]

Joseph Smith is one of the youngest Presidents by a wide margin. Does anyone wonder if a younger Presidency will ever be chosen and if there would be an impact for such an event?

At 25 when he was ordained to be president of the Church, he is, and always will be the youngest president.

Elder Bednar is the youngest Apostle now, and is still in his 50s, aIr. Short of having all 12 of them killed at one fell swoop, we're unlikely to have another Apostle younger than he is, or not by much. He'd still have to have all the others senior to him die, too, before he could assume the mantle of the senior Apostle of Jesus Christ. So, the implications of there being such a young president are horrific: all Apostles dead; a Quorum of the 70 as the first council of the Church; these choose one very young Apostle and 14 very old ones (they were ordained by age in 1835, and assuming the same process in this hypothetical situation, he would not be the first in seniority); and then "vulturing" as the 14 brothers in the other seats die, all within a very few years.

There's a reason Brigham Young was the president of the Church for so long: Joseph died very young, and he was only a few years older than Joseph. That scenario is not about to repeat itself, ever.

Sorry, it doesn't catalog for me.

Lehi

Edited March 21, 2012 by LeSellers

[Sky]

Currently, the most senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve is the one who becomes the President of the Church. Unless that somehow changes, I don't see how a younger man could ever become the President of the Church.

But back in the days of Joseph Smith, things were just getting established, so it was a different story.

[Calm]

Unless there was some sort of plague or disaster that wiped out the senior members, I don't see it happening.

[cinepro]

As others have noted, if you have a system entirely based on seniority, and members of the Q12 are in for life with no graceful way to be removed from the quorum, it is impossible for anyone young to become the President of the Church in the normal course of events. It would take the calling of very young apostles in conjunction with the rapid deaths of many older apostles.

The only other option would be for the system to be changed so the President of the Q12 somehow doesn't become the President of the Church. While I'm open to God changing the system, He'll also have to change the Church's articles of incorporation because I'm pretty sure the succession plan is part of the Church's corporate rules.

Anyhow, here's a chart for thought.

[bluebell]

I've read ensign articles about, and heard the prophets speak on (though i don't remember where and have no time to look right now), how the calling of mature men with long service in the church is a blessing-that calling men with the wisdom which comes from familiarity with and practice in leading the church, to lead the church, is how God qualifies those that He calls.

If that's true, then no, i don't think we'll see a younger president unless it becomes necessary somehow.

[KevinG]

I'm tempted to say I'd like to see Elder Packer become the President of the Church because it would be fun to watch all of the critics heads exploding. But that wouldn't be nice. So I won't.

[Zakuska]

At 25 when he was ordained to be president of the Church, he is, and always will be the youngest president.

Elder Bednar is the youngest Apostle now, and is still in his 50s, aIr. Short of having all 12 of them killed at one fell swoop, we're unlikely to have another Apostle younger than he is, or not by much. He'd still have to have all the others senior to him die, too, before he could assume the mantle of the senior Apostle of Jesus Christ. So, the implications of there being such a young president are horrific: all Apostles dead; a Quorum of the 70 as the first council of the Church; these choose one very young Apostle and 14 very old ones (they were ordained by age in 1835, and assuming the same process in this hypothetical situation, he would not be the first in seniority); and then "vulturing" as the 14 brothers in the other seats die, all within a very few years.

There's a reason Brigham Young was the president of the Church for so long: Joseph died very young, and he was only a few years older than Joseph. That scenario is not about to repeat itself, ever.

Sorry, it doesn't catalog for me.

Lehi

How about 2 at a time? (Rev. 11:2-12)?

[Cobalt-70]

I'm tempted to say I'd like to see Elder Packer become the President of the Church because it would be fun to watch all of the critics heads exploding. But that wouldn't be nice. So I won't.

But Ezra Taft Benson was the Boyd K. Packer of the early 1980s, and when President Kimball died, everybody thought Benson was going to be the same radical rightist libertarian that he was as an apostle. But he never was. Becoming the president can evidently change your priorities. Plus, people tend to mellow with age.

[LeSellers]

How about 2 at a time? (Rev. 11:2-12)?

There's only one Jerusalem. It would take seven, and even then, there'd be one left over.

Lehi

Edited March 22, 2012 by LeSellers

[cinepro]

I'm tempted to say I'd like to see Elder Packer become the President of the Church because it would be fun to watch all of the critics heads exploding. But that wouldn't be nice. So I won't.

If President Packer just said what he's said before about evolution, it wouldn't be the critics' heads exploding.

[zerinus]

Joseph Smith is one of the youngest Presidents by a wide margin. Does anyone wonder if a younger Presidency will ever be chosen and if there would be an impact for such an event?

JMS

The rule of succession in the Presidency through Apostolic seniority is not cast in stone. There is nothing to prevent God from overriding it if He wanted to.

Edited March 22, 2012 by zerinus

[Storm Rider]

I could see it happen when the Brethren disband the senior member becoming prophet standard. This has always bothered me because it is devoid of revelation or input from the Lord. I seriously reject any argument that the Lord calls them in a specific order so that they can serve at his appointed time. It just rubs me the wrong way completely.

So, when God tells them he is ready for a new prophet and he happens to be the sixth apostle in line, then the sixth apostle will become the prophet. I apologize for my little soap box, but this process has always appeared artificial to me and flies in the face of our belief in revelation.

[Alan]

D&C 43 provides for the incumbant president to designate a successor. Therefore, it is possible (though unlikely) that President Monson could designate a successor from outside the Twelve.

[Saints Alive]

I could see it happen when the Brethren disband the senior member becoming prophet standard. This has always bothered me because it is devoid of revelation or input from the Lord. I seriously reject any argument that the Lord calls them in a specific order so that they can serve at his appointed time. It just rubs me the wrong way completely.

So, when God tells them he is ready for a new prophet and he happens to be the sixth apostle in line, then the sixth apostle will become the prophet. I apologize for my little soap box, but this process has always appeared artificial to me and flies in the face of our belief in revelation.

I suppose you could look at it as God controlling how long The prophet and each Apostle lives, therefor selecting the next prophet that way. Who is to say God can't plan ahead?

[Deborah]

So, when God tells them he is ready for a new prophet and he happens to be the sixth apostle in line, then the sixth apostle will become the prophet. I apologize for my little soap box, but this process has always appeared artificial to me and flies in the face of our belief in revelation.

You might want to read about Elijah and Elisha. Elijah tutored and prepared Elisha to take his place. See the 2 Kings where the mantle of Elijah falls on Elisha. Likewise the prophet Eli tutored and had under his wing the young Samuel who would become a great prophet. It is not unusual for someone to be chosen before hand and prepared by the Lord by those with experience and knowledge. And of course we have Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We know in fact they were foreordained before coming to mortality to be in the position of Prophet.

Abraham 3:22-23 "Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born."

[Alan]

Succession is currently apostolic due to the situation which developed after the martyrdom. It does not have to be like this. The president of the church does not have to be chosen from amongst the 12; Joseph Smith was never a member of the Twelve and I don't believe Hyrum nor Rigdon were either.

In my view Joseph designated a successor and it was not his view that the president would be "chosen" as in current practice. I do not believe he envisaged apostolic succession, though certainly he made it possible. The current system is a default position in my view.

I believe Joseph wanted Hyrum to succeed him initially (which is why he did not want Hyrum to accompany him to Cathage) and for Joseph III to ultimately succeed him when he came of age. I am convinced JSIII would still have become president of the church had he come to Utah. It is interesting to me that none of the church presidents were set apart as president of the church until after the death of JSIII. It appears that before that time church presidents presided solely by virtue of their apostolic rank and the exercise of common consent.

The present system serves us well but as I said previously, the president of the church reserves the right to designate his successor in accordance with the provisions set out in D&C 43 and that successor does not have to come from within the apostolic quorum, though as key holders they would have to set him apart.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Joseph Smith is one of the youngest Presidents by a wide margin. Does anyone wonder if a younger Presidency will ever be chosen and if there would be an impact for such an event?

JMS

The older the wiser.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I'm tempted to say I'd like to see Elder Packer become the President of the Church because it would be fun to watch all of the critics heads exploding. But that wouldn't be nice. So I won't.

It would be fun...you can say it.

[LeSellers]

It is interesting to me that none of the church presidents were set apart as president of the church until after the death of JSIII. It appears that before that time church presidents presided solely by virtue of their apostolic rank and the exercise of common consent.

CFR that "none of the church presidents were set apart as president of the church until after the death of JSIII". He didn't die until 1914.

I'm more than comfortable with Brigham Young's having been set apart in 1847, and each of the others in turn. Lorenzo Snow was the first to have been designated a President of the Church immediately after the death of his predecessor, but that is not the same thing. Even that happened in the XIX, not the XX.

Lehi

[Deborah]

In my view Joseph designated a successor and it was not his view that the president would be "chosen" as in current practice.

And that successor was Brigham Young and the Twelve. Joseph told Brigham that he would be at the head and in the Grand Council he held with both men and women before he died he laid out what the succession would be. Truman Madsen talks about this in his lectures on Joseph Smith. Joseph and Brigham met together many times and the plan to go west was Joseph's carried out by Brigham. Yes Joseph tried to keep Hiram from going and told him it was because he wanted him to be the President, but do you really think Joseph didn't know that Hiram, his most loyal follower, would not go.

[cinepro]

Succession is currently apostolic due to the situation which developed after the martyrdom. It does not have to be like this. The president of the church does not have to be chosen from amongst the 12; Joseph Smith was never a member of the Twelve and I don't believe Hyrum nor Rigdon were either.

In my view Joseph designated a successor and it was not his view that the president would be "chosen" as in current practice. I do not believe he envisaged apostolic succession, though certainly he made it possible. The current system is a default position in my view.

I believe Joseph wanted Hyrum to succeed him initially (which is why he did not want Hyrum to accompany him to Cathage) and for Joseph III to ultimately succeed him when he came of age. I am convinced JSIII would still have become president of the church had he come to Utah. It is interesting to me that none of the church presidents were set apart as president of the church until after the death of JSIII. It appears that before that time church presidents presided solely by virtue of their apostolic rank and the exercise of common consent.

The present system serves us well but as I said previously, the president of the church reserves the right to designate his successor in accordance with the provisions set out in D&C 43 and that successor does not have to come from within the apostolic quorum, though as key holders they would have to set him apart.

D&C 43 dates from 1831 and has been superseded by the current succession "system."

While it's always interesting to imagine the possibility of someone other than the President of the Q12 becoming the President of the Church, succession is something the LDS Church takes very seriously and as far as I can tell, the official doctrine/policy on the subject is that the current system is the inspired system, and so there is no need for any other possibilities. When the President of the Church dies, the man who is President of the Q12 is the man that the Lord wants to lead the Church.

It's as easy as that.

Just in case there was any confusion, the Church published an Ensign article in 1996 reviewing the history of succession. The summary of the article clearly explains to what degree there is any flexibility in the system:

God’s earthly kingdom is a “house of order” and is governed in an orderly and systematic way. “What a divine plan!” declared President Spencer W. Kimball. “How wise our Lord, to organize so perfectly beyond the weakness of frail, grasping humans.” Today, members of the Church need no dramatic sign from heaven like the transfiguration of Brigham Young in 1844, for the principles have been clearly taught and the precedents firmly established. We need no special revelation to know that the Lord has selected whom he desires to lead the Church. But as we observe this inspired process of succession, we can see Divine Providence in operation. As we raise our arms to sustain a new prophet in solemn assembly, we can know within our hearts, by the power of the Holy Ghost, that the Lord has indeed spoken. It is through this inspired system of succession that the kingdom of God rolls on.

(emphasis added)

If "order" is the rule of the day, I would suggest that there simply is no orderly way for someone other than the President of the Q12 to become the Prophet. There is no procedure for it, and if the suggestion came from anyone other than the President of the Q12 to begin with, it could be a seriously damaging situation! I suspect such a suggestion would be formally ignored at best, and end in quick excommunication for the suggester at worst.

If the President of the Q12 had any doubts about their ability to be Prophet, the only thing I can see working is for them to address those issues before the current Prophet passes away. Since there are no Emeritus Apostles, they would have to prepare the Church beforehand for someone else to be Prophet. But after seeing what happened with the health of Presidents Smith (George A. and Joseph Fielding), Kimball, Benson and Hunter, I don't think there is a situation in which a person could be "unfit" to serve as Prophet. It seems the attitude is that whoever is President of the Q12 is the man the Lord wants to be Prophet, no matter how old or sick he is, and no matter how short his tenure may be.

Edited March 22, 2012 by cinepro

[Cobalt-70]

The rule of succession in the Presidency through Apostolic seniority is not cast in stone. There is nothing to prevent God from overriding it if He wanted to.

We know it's not cast in stone, because before Joseph Smith died, he taught many different (contradictory, actually) succession scenarios. Had Hyrum lived, for example, nobody would have disputed, Brigham Young included, that he would have succeeded Smith. But Hyrum was never a member of the Quorum of the Twelve. Hyrum held two offices: (1) Presiding Patriarch, and (2) the Assistant President of the Church (part of the First Presidency). We don't have either of these offices in the church today.

So one scenario that could replace the seniority rule would be to bring back the Assistant President office as a kind of "vice presidency," so that the person occupying that office would succeed the President when he dies or retires. A lot of thought and prayer could go deciding who should be the person who holds that office, and perhaps filling the office might even require an actual revelation. If no revelation is received, then when the President dies, the First Presidency remains vacant until a revelation is received. There is precedent for that. When Smith died, the First Presidency was vacant for several years, because Brigham Young initially said that nobody could possibly step into Smith's shoes.

[Cobalt-70]

D&C 43 dates from 1831 and has been superseded by the current succession "system."

I think D&C 43:4 was referring specifically to Joseph Smith, and was referring to the possibility that Smith lost his power and keys as revelator for some reason, like transgression, and had to appoint a successor. I don't think the verse relates to succession after Smith's death. Moreover, Smith himself had a number of contradictory theories about who should succeed him after he died.

[cinepro]

I think D&C 43:4 was referring specifically to Joseph Smith, and was referring to the possibility that Smith lost his power and keys as revelator for some reason, like transgression, and had to appoint a successor. I don't think the verse relates to succession after Smith's death. Moreover, Smith himself had a number of contradictory theories about who should succeed him after he died.

Thank goodness the Lord gave us Brigham Young to straighten out those contradictory theories!