Age Of Presidency

[cinepro]

The LDS system of succession works flawlessly. It has worked for every transition since the beginning of the restoration. I cannot conceive of a circumstance where your system would be necessary. Furthermore, your system does not work in the short nor the long term.

It does raise the question of whether or not we would even have the "LDS system of succession" if Hyrum hadn't died.

If you think about it, the reason the current succession process works flawlessly is because no one knows who, exactly, is going to be Prophet at the time when there would be any "politicking" or debate. The only chance we really have to influence the process is when a new Apostle is called. But as far as being a "Prophet" is concerned, we are only sustaining the new Apostle with the chance that he'll become the Prophet. And for the most part, 99% of Church members probably don't know the guy from Adam. We're sustaining him to the end of a line with the knowledge that if he lives longer than 14 other men, he'll be the Prophet, and it will probably be 30-50 years from now.

Did anyone think for a second "Hey, I'm sustaining the guy that has a slim chance of being Prophet in 2040" when Elder Andersen was called in 2009?

It would be like simplifying our Presidential election by having congressional members serve for life, and the oldest gets to be President. Sure, every congressional election might be picking a future President (especially if they were very young), but you'd be picking the President decades before they assumed the office. No one would really care, and it would be a smooth, flawless process.

Edited March 27, 2012 by cinepro

[Alan]

The only "system" ("default" or otherwise) is D&C 107:22-27. There is no other.

D&C 107 does not authorise the Twelve to appoint the president of the church or organise the First Presidency.

[zerinus]

The LDS system of succession works flawlessly. It has worked for every transition since the beginning of the restoration. I cannot conceive of a circumstance where your system would be necessary. Furthermore, your system does not work in the short nor the long term.

Case in Point: The RLDS/CofC followed the process you outlined where the President of their church designates his successor -- historically a direct descendant of Joseph Smith, Jr.. Frederic M. Smith, the third RLDS/CofC president, did not designate his successor. Instead, Israel A. Smith was appointed by the RLDS/CofC leadership. Interestingly, the first non-Smith descendant, W. Grant McMurray, on the retirement of Wallace B. Smith was designated as the new RLDS/CofC president. However, McMurray did not name a successor when he resigned. McMurray's successor, Stephen A. Veazey, was not a direct descendant of Joseph Smith, Jr. either. Rather Veazey was serving as the President of the Council of the Twelve Apostles.

Your little pet theory just doesn't work on a consistent basis.

Just to add a note, the particular "office" that he is talking about (that was originally given to Oliver Cowdery, and subsequently transferred to Hyrum Smith) is still operational in the Church. That was a special priesthood appointment that was made hereditary, and has been enjoyed by Hyrum's male descendants ever since. The person who currently has this appointment is Patriarch Eldred G. Smith, who was made emeritus General Authority in 1979, and celebrated his 105^th birthday in January this year. The office is generally known as the "Patriarch" to the Church, and is a proper General Authority appointment, and is designated "prophet, seer, and revelator". But there has never been any suggestion, in revelation, history, or precedent, that that appointment lines him up for succession to the Presidency of the Church.

[zerinus]

D&C 107 does not authorise the Twelve to appoint the president of the church or organise the First Presidency.

It does just that. They are equal in authority to the First Presidency, and possess all the keys that they possess. That means that in their absence, they can do whatever they can do.

[Deborah]

It would be like simplifying our Presidential election by having congressional members serve for life, and the oldest gets to be President. Sure, every congressional election might be picking a future President (especially if they were very young), but you'd be picking the President decades before they assumed the office. No one would really care, and it would be a smooth, flawless process.

The difference of course being that God is choosing the Apostle who may become prophet whereas in politics it's usually political machines who may not have a righteous agenda.

[cinepro]

The difference of course being that God is choosing the Apostle who may become prophet whereas in politics it's usually political machines who may not have a righteous agenda.

The point being that the reason the LDS Succession system is good is because it is inspired, not because it is free of debate and politics.

Keeping in mind that even with inspiration there can be debate, politics and lot-casting.

Edited March 27, 2012 by cinepro

[Cobalt-70]

The only "system" ("default" or otherwise) is D&C 107:22-27. There is no other.

D&C 107:22-27 says nothing about succession. It also doesn't say that the First Presidency (or any other quorum) dissolves when its president dies, which is a necessary prerequisite to the current system. It also doesn't say why it should be the president of the Twelve, rather than the president of the presidency of the Seventy, or the president of the presiding High Council, all of whom have equal authority under D&C 107.

[Cobalt-70]

The LDS system of succession works flawlessly. It has worked for every transition since the beginning of the restoration. I cannot conceive of a circumstance where your system would be necessary. Furthermore, your system does not work in the short nor the long term.

Case in Point: The RLDS/CofC followed the process you outlined where the President of their church designates his successor -- historically a direct descendant of Joseph Smith, Jr.. Frederic M. Smith, the third RLDS/CofC president, did not designate his successor. Instead, Israel A. Smith was appointed by the RLDS/CofC leadership. Interestingly, the first non-Smith descendant, W. Grant McMurray, on the retirement of Wallace B. Smith was designated as the new RLDS/CofC president. However, McMurray did not name a successor when he resigned. McMurray's successor, Stephen A. Veazey, was not a direct descendant of Joseph Smith, Jr. either. Rather Veazey was serving as the President of the Council of the Twelve Apostles.

Your little pet theory just doesn't work on a consistent basis.

It's not really my pet theory. It was Joseph Smith's. You could say that it didn't work for Smith, either. Smith designated Assistant President Hyrum as his successor, but Hyrum died before Smith, thus leaving the church in a quandry. (It didn't help that Smith at various times ordained people other than Hyrum to be his successor--Brigham Young, unfortunately in my view, not being one of them.)

The plan for the President to appoint his own successor would of course be supplemented with backup scenarios, such as perhaps the current system, which despite its drawbacks is not the worst system in the world.

[Cobalt-70]

Just to add a note, the particular "office" that he is talking about (that was originally given to Oliver Cowdery, and subsequently transferred to Hyrum Smith) is still operational in the Church. That was a special priesthood appointment that was made hereditary, and has been enjoyed by Hyrum's male descendants ever since. The person who currently has this appointment is Patriarch Eldred G. Smith, who was made emeritus General Authority in 1979, and celebrated his 105^th birthday in January this year. The office is generally known as the "Patriarch" to the Church, and is a proper General Authority appointment, and is designated "prophet, seer, and revelator". But there has never been any suggestion, in revelation, history, or precedent, that that appointment lines him up for succession to the Presidency of the Church.

You are confusing two offices, both of which were held by Hyrum. Hyrum was Assistant President, and he was also Presiding Patriarch, which were two separate offices. Hyrum succeeded Oliver Cowdery as Assistant President, and succeeded Joseph Smith, Sr. as Presiding Patriarch.

Joseph Smith did once say that the office of Presiding Patriarch was the highest position in the church. In other words, higher than President. However. like the Assistant President office, the Presiding Patriarch office has been discontinued. Eldred Smith has "emeritus" status, and his son E. Gary Smith was evidently deemed not qualified to inherit the office. Thus, when Eldred Smith dies in the next couple of years, the office of Presiding Patriarch, once the highest office of the church, will die with him.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[zerinus]

You are confusing two offices, both of which were held by Hyrum. Hyrum was Assistant President, and he was also Presiding Patriarch, which were two separate offices. Hyrum succeeded Oliver Cowdery as Assistant President, and succeeded Joseph Smith, Sr. as Presiding Patriarch.

Joseph Smith did once say that the office of Presiding Patriarch was the highest position in the church. In other words, higher than President. However. like the Assistant President office, the Presiding Patriarch office has been discontinued. Eldred Smith has "emeritus" status, and his son E. Gary Smith was evidently deemed not qualified to inherit the office. Thus, when Eldred Smith dies in the next couple of years, the office of Presiding Patriarch, once the highest office of the church, will die with him.

There is no such thing as "Assistant President," and never has been. Oliver Cowdery was designated by the Lord to be the "second elder" of the Church, and Joseph Smith the "first elder" (D&C 20:3). It was a unique position that arose at that early period in Church history while the Church was being organized. At that time the First Presidency or the Twelve Apostles had not yet been organized. Joseph and Oliver occupied that unique position while being charged with the responsibility of organizing the Church. Neither of those positions were meant to be perpetuated in the Church. Once the First Presidency, the Twelve, and the other quorums of the Church were organized, and the Church was fully established, the positions of "first elder" and "second elder" were no longer needed, and were not perpetuated. The subsequent Presidents of the Church have never called themselves by that title as far as I know. The office of "second elder" was not meant to be perpetuated in the Church any more that the office of the "first elder" has been.

Edited March 28, 2012 by zerinus

[Cobalt-70]

There is no such thing as "Assistant President," and never has been. Oliver Cowdery was designated by the Lord to be the "second elder" of the Church, and Joseph Smith the "first elder" (D&C 20:3). It was a unique position that arose at that early period in Church history while the Church was being organized. At that time the First Presidency or the Twelve Apostles had not yet been organized. Joseph and Oliver occupied that unique position while being charged with the responsibility of organizing the Church. Neither of those positions were meant to be perpetuated in the Church. Once the First Presidency, the Twelve, and the other quorums of the Church were organized, and the Church was fully established, the positions of "first elder" and "second elder" were no longer needed, and were not perpetuated. The subsequent Presidents of the Church have never called themselves by that title as far as I know. The office of "second elder" was not meant to be perpetuated in the Church any more that the office of the "first elder" has been.

Cowdery was indeed the "second elder" in the early church but then on December 5, 1834 (after the organization of the First Presidency, but before the organization of the Quorum of the Twelve), Smith laid his hands on Cowdery's head and said, "In the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified for the sins of the world, I lay my hands upon thee and ordain thee an assistant-president to the High and Holy Priesthood, in the Church of the Latter-day Saints." (HC 2:176).

Smith then explained that: "The office of Assistant President is to assist in presiding over the whole Church, and to officiate in the absence of the President, according to his rank and appointment .... The office of this priesthood is also to act as spokesman, taking Aaron for an example. The virtue of the above priesthood is to hold the keys of the kingdom of heaven or of the Church militant." (Manuscript History, Book A, pp. 179-80).

On January 25, 1841, Smith ordained Hyrum to the same position, stating, "And from this time forth I appoint unto him [Hyrum] that he may be a prophet, and a seer, and a revelator unto my church, as well as my servant Joseph; That he may act in concert also with my servant Joseph; and that he shall receive counsel from my servant Joseph, who shall show unto him the keys whereby he may ask and receive, and be crowned with the same blessing, and glory, and honor, and priesthood, and gifts of the priesthood, that once were put upon him that was my servant Oliver Cowdery." (D&C 124:94-95).

[zerinus]

Cowdery was indeed the "second elder" in the early church but then on December 5, 1834 (after the organization of the First Presidency, but before the organization of the Quorum of the Twelve), Smith laid his hands on Cowdery's head and said, "In the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified for the sins of the world, I lay my hands upon thee and ordain thee an assistant-president to the High and Holy Priesthood, in the Church of the Latter-day Saints." (HC 2:176).

Smith then explained that: "The office of Assistant President is to assist in presiding over the whole Church, and to officiate in the absence of the President, according to his rank and appointment .... The office of this priesthood is also to act as spokesman, taking Aaron for an example. The virtue of the above priesthood is to hold the keys of the kingdom of heaven or of the Church militant." (Manuscript History, Book A, pp. 179-80).

On January 25, 1841, Smith ordained Hyrum to the same position, stating, "And from this time forth I appoint unto him [Hyrum] that he may be a prophet, and a seer, and a revelator unto my church, as well as my servant Joseph; That he may act in concert also with my servant Joseph; and that he shall receive counsel from my servant Joseph, who shall show unto him the keys whereby he may ask and receive, and be crowned with the same blessing, and glory, and honor, and priesthood, and gifts of the priesthood, that once were put upon him that was my servant Oliver Cowdery." (D&C 124:94-95).

There used to be "Assistants to the Twelve" too at one time; but it was never meant to be a permanent fixture of Church organization; and once the Seventies were properly organized, that was discontinued. Oliver Cowdery occupied a very inique position in the Church by virtue of his early involvement in the translation of the Book of Mormon and in the organization of the church; therefore the Lord chose to honor him in various ways (which he later proved to be unworthy of, and therefore lost it to Hyrum Smoth). None of this implies that it was meant to be a peramemt feature of Chirch organization and government.

[Avatar4321]

There used to be "Assistants to the Twelve" too at one time; but it was never meant to be a permanent fixture of Church organization; and once the Seventies were properly organized, that was discontinued. Oliver Cowdery occupied a very inique position in the Church by virtue of his early involvement in the translation of the Book of Mormon and in the organization of the church; therefore the Lord chose to honor him in various ways (which he later proved to be unworthy of, and therefore lost it to Hyrum Smoth). None of this implies that it was meant to be a peramemt feature of Chirch organization and government.

Nor does it prevent the Lord from instructing the Prophet to call one again.

Doesnt really change anything though. As President of the Twelve, Brigham Young still became the leader of the Church when the Twelve had to step up at the dissolution of the First Presidency. The Keys of the Kingdom have still been passed down through unbroken succession to President Monson.

And we still get to be instructed by General authorities this weekend. What a great time to be alive!

[Cobalt-70]

There used to be "Assistants to the Twelve" too at one time; but it was never meant to be a permanent fixture of Church organization; and once the Seventies were properly organized, that was discontinued. Oliver Cowdery occupied a very inique position in the Church by virtue of his early involvement in the translation of the Book of Mormon and in the organization of the church; therefore the Lord chose to honor him in various ways (which he later proved to be unworthy of, and therefore lost it to Hyrum Smoth). None of this implies that it was meant to be a peramemt feature of Chirch organization and government.

Your "throwaway office" theory isn't consistent with the fact that Joseph Smith appointed Hyrum as Cowdery's successor. And Assistant President was not merely some "gopher" position for the President, which is why some Mormon scholars have referred to the position as "Associate President." Cowdery and Hyrum, in that office, were Smith's successors. they were also second in command, and they had all the "keys of this kingdom." It was a full co-presidency of the church. In fact, the October 1843 edition of Times and Seasons referred to Joseph and Hyrum jointly as "Presidents of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."

It is clear that Hyrum had more priesthood keys than the Quorum of the Twelve. Before Smith's death, for example, the Twelve had no authority to ordain stake officers. Joseph Smith said more than once that the Twelve's authority did not extend into organized stakes. For example, "They are the Twelve Apostles, who are called to the office of traveling high council, who are to preside over all the churches of the Saints among the Gentiles, where there is no [stake] presidency established...." Kirtland Council Minute Book 88. And he said, "the Twelve will have no right to go into Zion, or any of its stakes, and there undertake to regulate the affairs thereof, where there is a standing high council; but it is their duty to go abroad and regulate all matters relative to the different branches of the Church." (HC 2:220).

By contrast, Cowdery and Hyrum had the "keys of this kingdom," the same as Joseph Smith. There is no reason that the LDS church could not resuscitate this important abandoned office and thereby allow the President to choose his successor.

[Cobalt-70]

Doesnt really change anything though. As President of the Twelve, Brigham Young still became the leader of the Church when the Twelve had to step up at the dissolution of the First Presidency. The Keys of the Kingdom have still been passed down through unbroken succession to President Monson.

I agree, and I agree that Brigham Young was the best and most obvious choice to succeed Smith. But it didn't have to be that way. Had Hyrum survived, it is undisputed that he would have automatically succeeded Smith because of his position in as Assistant (Associate) President in the First Presidency. But Hyrum died, and Brigham Young was the church's best remaining leader. Had Brigham Young been the presiding stake president rather than William Marks, it would have been the Presiding High Council that took the reigns rather than the Twelve. Had Young been a member of the First Presidency, he would have naturally stepped into the role of President. Had he been the Presiding Patriarch, he would have taken the reigns by virtue of that office. By whatever technical path, it was inevitably going to be Brigham Young, even though Joseph Smith never actually designated him as his successor. Then afterwards, the theory of succession would have been adjusted to reinforce the preeminence of whichever quorum Young happened to be a member of.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[zerinus]

Your "throwaway office" theory isn't consistent with the fact that Joseph Smith appointed Hyrum as Cowdery's successor. And Assistant President was not merely some "gopher" position for the President, which is why some Mormon scholars have referred to the position as "Associate President." Cowdery and Hyrum, in that office, were Smith's successors. they were also second in command, and they had all the "keys of this kingdom." It was a full co-presidency of the church. In fact, the October 1843 edition of Times and Seasons referred to Joseph and Hyrum jointly as "Presidents of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."

It is clear that Hyrum had more priesthood keys than the Quorum of the Twelve. Before Smith's death, for example, the Twelve had no authority to ordain stake officers. Joseph Smith said more than once that the Twelve's authority did not extend into organized stakes. For example, "They are the Twelve Apostles, who are called to the office of traveling high council, who are to preside over all the churches of the Saints among the Gentiles, where there is no [stake] presidency established...." Kirtland Council Minute Book 88. And he said, "the Twelve will have no right to go into Zion, or any of its stakes, and there undertake to regulate the affairs thereof, where there is a standing high council; but it is their duty to go abroad and regulate all matters relative to the different branches of the Church." (HC 2:220).

By contrast, Cowdery and Hyrum had the "keys of this kingdom," the same as Joseph Smith. There is no reason that the LDS church could not resuscitate this important abandoned office and thereby allow the President to choose his successor.

Still don't buy it. Oliver Cowdery occupied a unique and privileged position by virtue of the role he played in the Restoration, as a result of which he had special privileges bestowed on him which were later transferred to Hyrum Smith because of his unfaithfulness; none of which translates into an office to be perpetuated in the Church.

[Deborah]

It is clear that Hyrum had more priesthood keys than the Quorum of the Twelve. Before Smith's death, for example, the Twelve had no authority to ordain stake officers. Joseph Smith said more than once that the Twelve's authority did not extend into organized stakes. For example, "They are the Twelve Apostles, who are called to the office of traveling high council, who are to preside over all the churches of the Saints among the Gentiles, where there is no [stake] presidency established...." Kirtland Council Minute Book 88. And he said, "the Twelve will have no right to go into Zion, or any of its stakes, and there undertake to regulate the affairs thereof, where there is a standing high council; but it is their duty to go abroad and regulate all matters relative to the different branches of the Church." (HC 2:220).

Where in there does it say the Twelve had no authority to ordain stake officers. It only says that when there is a stake in place that they do not interfere, which is consistent with the Lord's allowing those he has ordained to do their jobs.

[David T]

Deborah, in the days of Joseph, there was a distinction between the Travling High Council (the Twelve), and Standing High Councils in the stakes. Administratively, The Quorum of Twelve was specifically and separately over what we would call Missions and Districts, and be somewhat equal in rank to the Standing Presidencies in the Stakes, and in Zion. You could say The Twelve were kind of like today's Mission Presidents.

At the end of Joseph's life, further development of the concepts of the cosmological temple priesthood and keys began to be developed with the Quorum of the Anointed.

It was generally by virtue of those who were initiated into and sustained within the Quorum of the Anointed that the leadership of the Church proceeded. Without a First Presidency, the 12 took over the duties of the Presiding Quorum, and then re-adjusted their responsibilities accordingly.

By Joseph's death, I don't think Hyrum or Joseph had particularly more 'keys' - just were established together as a Presidency that ecclesiastically outranked the 12 and the Stake High Councils. When both office holders were wiped out, the authority activated/went to the next surviving body: the 12. Although this was certainly not without debate and discussion.

Edited March 28, 2012 by David T

[David T]

Here's a resource and chart from the Joseph Smith Papers (official Church publication/website), CHURCH OFFICERS, 1830 –1839. And this one is helpful as a followup as well.

Edited March 28, 2012 by David T

[Cobalt-70]

Where in there does it say the Twelve had no authority to ordain stake officers. It only says that when there is a stake in place that they do not interfere, which is consistent with the Lord's allowing those he has ordained to do their jobs.

It's right there in black and white: "The Twelve will have no right to go into Zion, or any of its stakes, and there undertake to regulate the affairs thereof." They had no authority in either Zion or the stakes. If you have no authority within a stake to regulate its affairs, you certainly cannot ordain officers there. And the Twelve didn't. But by the same token, the Presiding High Council and the Stake High Councils had no power over the branches of the church administered by the Twelve.

[Cobalt-70]

At the end of Joseph's life, further development of the concepts of the cosmological temple priesthood and keys began to be developed with the Quorum of the Anointed.

It was generally by virtue of those who were initiated into and sustained within the Quorum of the Anointed that the leadership of the Church proceeded. Without a First Presidency, the 12 took over the duties of the Presiding Quorum, and then re-adjusted their responsibilities accordingly.

By Joseph's death, I don't think Hyrum or Joseph had particularly more 'keys' - just were established together as a Presidency that ecclesiastically outranked the 12 and the Stake High Councils. When both office holders were wiped out, the authority activated/went to the next surviving body: the 12. Although this was certainly not without debate and discussion.

The Anointed Quorum was not the Quorum of the Twelve. I'd still like to see your references, so that I can know what you are talking about, but if the Anointed Quorum were designated as Smith's successor, then Young's argument that the Twelve should become the governing body of the church would have no validity. It would be the Anointed Quorum, which included women, as well as men who were not members of the Twelve. Also, at least one of the Twelve (John E. Page) was not a member of the Anointed Quorum.

For example, Alpheus Cutler was a member of the Anointed Quorum, and he actually formed a branch of Mormonism called the Cutlerites. Why, under your theory, wouldn't his claim to succession be just as valid as that of Brigham Young? Same with Lyman Wight, who formed the Wightites. Also, some of the members of the Anointed Quorum, like William Marks and Reynolds Cahoon, were also members of the Presiding High Council. Marks was the president of the Presiding High Council, and thus had as many priesthood keys as did Brigham Young. (Though Young could not appoint stake officers, and Marks could not appoint officers in the branches.) Sidney Rigdon was a member of the Anointed Quorum, and he was a member of the First Presidency.

Besides, the Anointed Quorum had no more power or keys than do any current endowed member of the church, though most of them also had their second anointing. (Orson Pratt did not.) As an endowed Mormon, I don't think I'd get very far if I stood up and claimed to be the successor of Thomas S. Monson.

[Cobalt-70]

Here's a resource and chart from the Joseph Smith Papers (official Church publication/website), CHURCH OFFICERS, 1830 –1839. And this one is helpful as a followup as well.

Both charts are pretty good, particularly the first one which is very good. The second chart is not as carefully done or evenhanded, and has a few important omissions.

[David T]

Besides, the Anointed Quorum had no more power or keys than do any current endowed member of the church, though most of them also had their second anointing. (Orson Pratt did not.) As an endowed Mormon, I don't think I'd get very far if I stood up and claimed to be the successor of Thomas S. Monson.

The highlighted is a key advantage Brigham Young had, in addition to being the President of the Quorum of the Twelve. There are many things to take into consideration, but the importance of membership in the Anointed Quorum, and their status therein was (no pun intended) key.

*President of a presiding quorum who had recently received ramped up administrative duties from Joseph

*Membership in the Anointed/Temple Quorum - and had received Second Anointing (Something Rigdon had not)

* Acknowledgement that the First Presidency did not presently exist without Joseph or Hyrum. (Even Rigdon didn't claim to be Church President or Prophet, only "Joseph's Spokesman" - as in, from beyond the grave!)

It is complicated, I'll grant you that. There's been some good papers written on the subject, and I understand a new book is in the works specifically on the topic of succession.

[Cobalt-70]

The highlighted is a key advantage Brigham Young had, in addition to being the President of the Quorum of the Twelve. There are many things to take into consideration, but the importance of membership in the Anointed Quorum, and their status therein was (no pun intended) key.

*President of a presiding quorum who had recently received ramped up administrative duties from Joseph

*Membership in the Anointed/Temple Quorum - and had received Second Anointing (Something Rigdon had not)

* Acknowledgement that the First Presidency did not presently exist without Joseph or Hyrum. (Even Rigdon didn't claim to be Church President or Prophet, only "Joseph's Spokesman" - as in, from beyond the grave!)

It is complicated, I'll grant you that. There's been some good papers written on the subject, and I understand a new book is in the works specifically on the topic of succession.

That Young had his second anointing makes him no different from most of the other members of the Anointed Quorum, including William Marks and Alpheus Cutler. Moreover, several of the Twelve did not have their second anointing, including Amasa M. Lyman, William Smith, and Lyman Wight. Besides, the second anointing does not give you the keys of presidency of the church. It only anoints you as a king and queen, priest and priestess, of your heavenly kingdom. Joseph Smith served as the President of the Church for 14 years without having his second anointing, and nobody supposed that Smith was lacking in any priesthood keys.

As to the factors you list above, Willliam Marks was also the president of a presiding quorum with equal authority to the Twelve (D&C 107), which had recently received ramped up administrative duties. In Nauvoo, the Presiding High Council was given appellate power even over decisions made in the branches where the Twelve normally held supreme power. Marks was also a member of the Anointed Quorum who had received his second anointing. In fact, Marks received his second anointing before Young or any of the other Twelve, and was senior to them within the Anointed Quorum. Marks was also senior to the Twelve within the Council of Fifty, and he outranked all of them by age.

There was no acknowledgement by Joseph Smith that the First Presidency did not exist without Joseph and Hyrum. Smith never said that, though a statement to that effect was retroactively inserted into HC. You can see this by comparing HC 2:374 (edited long after Smith's death) with the original minutes found in the 16 Jan. 1836 entry of Joseph Smith's diary. The retroactively inserted material also appeared in parentheses in the 1853 Millennial Star, the parentheses clearly indicating that it was a retroactive addition to Smith's actual words recorded in his journal. I understand this insertion is missing in the Manuscript History written during Smith's lifetime, but I can't verify this because the Joseph Smith Papers project hasn't quite gotten that far yet in publishing book B-1 of the MH. Had Smith ever actually said that, it would certainly have been raised during the August 1844 deliberations on succession. Moreover, it contradicts Smith's 1834 statement that his first counselor would preside in his absence (Kirtland Council Minute Book, p. 10).

Note also that just as Sidney Rigdon did not claim to be the Church President or Prophet, Brigham Young didn't either. In 1844, Young stated, "You cannot call a man to be a prophet....You cannot take any man and put him at the head...." He also said in an 1844 published letter, "Let no man presume for a moment that [smith's] place will be filled by another; for, remember he stands in his own place, and always will." So Young and Rigdon were on the same page here.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[Alan]

That Young had his second anointing makes him no different from most of the other members of the Anointed Quorum, including William Marks and Alpheus Cutler. Moreover, several of the Twelve did not have their second anointing, including Amasa M. Lyman, William Smith, and Lyman Wight. Besides, the second anointing does not give you the keys of presidency of the church. It only anoints you as a king and queen, priest and priestess, of your heavenly kingdom. Joseph Smith served as the President of the Church for 14 years without having his second anointing, and nobody supposed that Smith was lacking in any priesthood keys.

As to the factors you list above, Willliam Marks was also the president of a presiding quorum with equal authority to the Twelve (D&C 107), which had recently received ramped up administrative duties. In Nauvoo, the Presiding High Council was given appellate power even over decisions made in the branches where the Twelve normally held supreme power. Marks was also a member of the Anointed Quorum who had received his second anointing. In fact, Marks received his second anointing before Young or any of the other Twelve, and was senior to them within the Anointed Quorum. Marks was also senior to the Twelve within the Council of Fifty, and he outranked all of them by age.

There was no acknowledgement by Joseph Smith that the First Presidency did not exist without Joseph and Hyrum. Smith never said that, though a statement to that effect was retroactively inserted into HC. You can see this by comparing HC 2:374 (edited long after Smith's death) with the original minutes found in the 16 Jan. 1836 entry of Joseph Smith's diary. The retroactively inserted material also appeared in parentheses in the 1853 Millennial Star, the parentheses clearly indicating that it was a retroactive addition to Smith's actual words recorded in his journal. I understand this insertion is missing in the Manuscript History written during Smith's lifetime, but I can't verify this because the Joseph Smith Papers project hasn't quite gotten that far yet in publishing book B-1 of the MH. Had Smith ever actually said that, it would certainly have been raised during the August 1844 deliberations on succession. Moreover, it contradicts Smith's 1834 statement that his first counselor would preside in his absence (Kirtland Council Minute Book, p. 10).

Note also that just as Sidney Rigdon did not claim to be the Church President or Prophet, Brigham Young didn't either. In 1844, Young stated, "You cannot call a man to be a prophet....You cannot take any man and put him at the head...." He also said in an 1844 published letter, "Let no man presume for a moment that [smith's] place will be filled by another; for, remember he stands in his own place, and always will." So Young and Rigdon were on the same page here.

Cobalt is right here. BY did not claim to be Joseph's successor, even after the reorganisation of the first presidency. There was always room for JSIII had he come to Utah.

William Marks is an interesting character because it is true that he was more qualified to preside over the church than Brigham. I just don't think he realised it. He initially supported Rigdon's claim to guardianship over the church for Joseph (meaning, I believe, Joseph Smith III as he was not yet of age) and it was that support which disqualified him. He later threw his lot in with James Strang before finally re-surfacing in the Reorganisation. He ordained JSIII to the priesthood and to the presidency of the RLDS Church.

I believe the church is still under apostolic administration to this day, which it was not when Joseph was alive. The same pattern is followed ie. a presidency of three etc, but this is an entirely apostolic affair with only members of the Quorum of Twelve being considered for the presidency.