ERayR Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 Of that is the case than if I make 100,000 in a year but only have 1,000 in my bank at the end of the year, after taxes, bills, etc. do I only owe 100 in tithing?Listen closely. Paying your bills, lights, heat, insurances, etc, etc is increase. If they were not payed you would not live thus it is increase. 1
ERayR Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 I cannot have my cake and eat it too. If I receive a $500,000 house as a gift,there is no way I can come up with $50,000 to pay tithing.If and when I sell the house,then it will be possible(capital gains not withstanding). When is it an increase to me?For you to decide, just so you recognize that it is increase.
ERayR Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 none you pay it upon surplusWhere did you come up with that?
ERayR Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 Inheritence.Somebody with that kind of an inheritance usually protects it with life insurance.
LeSellers Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 none you pay it upon surplusWhere did you come up with that?Doctrine 612 is not LDS.The RLDS (and, I presume, the Community of Christ continues to) rejects tithing as we Saints understand it. They pay on "surplus": overly parsing the words of the commandment in one place, and ignoring the explanation found in other scriptures.Lehi
ERayR Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 Doctrine 612 is not LDS.The RLDS (and, I presume, the Community of Christ continues to) rejects tithing as we Saints understand it. They pay on "surplus": overly parsing the words of the commandment in one place, and ignoring the explanation found in other scriptures.LehiThat answers my question. Thanks
blackstrap Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 It was a lot easier when one just raised goats.How many goats were there as of Jan,1 ,700 BC ? How many goats were there as of Jan. 1 ,699 BC ? There is the increase.
LeSellers Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) I give full credit to this statement by Jesus:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other [tithing even the herbs of their gardens] undone.Lehi Edited March 21, 2012 by LeSellers
Calm Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 It was a lot easier when one just raised goats.How many goats were there as of Jan,1 ,700 BC ? How many goats were there as of Jan. 1 ,699 BC ? There is the increase.I've taken care of goats....calculating might be easier, but not much else.
JAHS Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 We'll keep this real simple. I will list a few thing, you list weather you should pay tithing on it or not.- net income- gross income- tax refund- cash gifts- student loan money- material gifts- dividends- home loans- buisness loans- money from selling a car- yard sale moneyYou left a few off the list:Disability incomeUnemployment income
cinepro Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) The problem is this was debated by the early Church leaders, and the RLDS took one direction, and the LDS have gone on another.The theory is it is INCREASE, not INCOME. That is your leftovers after all nessesary expenses have been paid (rent, food, etc. etc.).I don't know the details of the debates (IE: what side Joseph Smith was on), but the official official position is it's between you and God. But I can assure anyone that the idea wraps around the problematic issue of people who live beyond their means (IE: have fancy cars, and fancy houses), so the line blurs between nessesity and extravigance.JMSMichael Quinn has written an interesting history of tithing here.All I can say is thank goodness we don't ask modern converts to initially give 10% of everything they own. I suspect conversion rates would be much different if that were the case!In July 1838 Joseph Smith dictated a revelation which required a more stringent financial sacrifice from Latter-day Saints. It defined the law of tithing as a donation of all the individual's 'surplus property' at first, and then a tenth of annual income thereafter (D&C 119:1, 4). In November 1841 the Quorum of the Twelve made the first liberalization of the 1838 tithing revelation: the initial donation was reduced to only 'one-tenth of all a man [possesses, and] 1/10 of increas[e]' afterwards.In August 1844 the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued an epistle which required all Mormons to immediately pay 'a tenth of all their property and money . . . and then let them continue to pay in a tenth of their income from that time forth.' There was no exemption for Mormons who had already paid one-tenth of their property upon conversion. In January 1845 a Quorum of Twelve's epistle reemphasized 'the duty of all saints to tithe themselves one-tenth of all they possess when they enter into the new and everlasting covenant: and then one-tenth of their interest, or income, yearly afterwards.' However, two weeks later the Twelve voted to exempt themselves, the two general bishops Newel K. Whitney and George Miller, and the Nauvoo Temple Committee from any obligation to pay tithing. This was due to their services to the church. Edited March 21, 2012 by cinepro
LeSellers Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 You left a few off the list:Disability incomeUnemployment incomeThere are other possibilities, as well.For instance, insurance payments following an accident or car repairs one chooses not to have done.Court awards for "pain and suffering".Stock dividends or splits.The issue is, in my mind, not what you have to pay tithing on, but do you have the spirit of tithing and do you trust the Lord. He may not accept tithing (which is a sacred fund, by the way) on illegal or immoral (not the same things) increase, but allows us to pay on anything else we choose to out of gratitude.Lehi 1
Grundelwalken Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 I think the Brethren are wise to leave the decision up to each individual. We make our peace with the Lord and we offer the offerings we feel are appropriate. He asks nothing more and nothing less from each member. To quibble about gnats and flies is not in keeping with the Spirit of the Law. MW
Grundelwalken Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 I've taken care of goats....calculating might be easier, but not much else.And it doesn't smell as bad (well at least not literally). MW
Freedom Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 If you want to deal in hyperbole try this one. If some one hands you the deed to a 500,000 house is that increase to you or not? It is my opinion that you have been given a pretty substantial increase. Do you pay tithing or not? It is obvious, to me, that you don't just disregard gifts when paying tithing. However, to add up the Christmas and birthday gifts doesn't make sense to me either. One should find a place where they are comfortable that they can tell the Bishop that they are full tithe payers.It is not an increase in terms of tithing. The church has made it very clear that you are taxed on your income.
Freedom Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 You left a few off the list:Disability incomeUnemployment incomeI would not pay on this sort of revenue because I already paid tithing on the funds I used to fund this insurance. I would no more pay tithing on this than I would on the benefits from my medical insurance or car insurance.
ERayR Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 It is not an increase in terms of tithing. The church has made it very clear that you are taxed on your income.What ever makes you comfortable. The actual law of the tithe is 10% of your increase.
ERayR Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I would not pay on this sort of revenue because I already paid tithing on the funds I used to fund this insurance. I would no more pay tithing on this than I would on the benefits from my medical insurance or car insurance.Wasn't there a story in Acts about a couple who held back on their tithing and declared a full tithe when it was not? Again whatever you are comfortable with. As for me, well I would have nothing if it were not for God.
JDave Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) I enjoyed the line of questioning on this put forth by Orson Scott CardDo you count the portion of your health insurance your employer pays for? When you go to the doctor and don't pay the full cost of the treatment, aren't you receiving "increase"? And what do you do about a 401(k)? When your employer matches your savings in such an account, isn't that income? Or do you wait to pay tithing on the 401(k) until you withdraw from it after you retire, so you don't tithe even the portion you contribute now?What about the money paid into Social Security? If we tithe that money now, does that mean our Social Security benefits are already "pre-tithed"? Or should we figure out how much our employer is paying into the system, and count that as increase right now? Or, when we retire, do we add up our lifetime contributions to Social Security, on which we already paid tithing, and don't pay tithing on it until the benefits exceed what we paid in?I also really like his answer to the questions.I do not know the "right" answer to any of these questions, and the official church response to questions like this is always the same:Pray — and consult with your bishop.We can always make it more complicated if we like. The solution is to look at your situation and figure out what makes sense. Pray about it and consult with the bishop if you like (or an internet forum if that suits your tastes, though results are guaranteed to be inferior). Then act on what you feel is best. Repeat the process if your situation (or paradigm) ever changes. Edited March 22, 2012 by JDave 1
thesometimesaint Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 ERayR:Yes there was. But IIRC it wasn't about the withholding itself it was about the lying about it that got them into trouble.
LeSellers Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 it wasn't about the withholding itself it was about the lying about it that got them into trouble.Talk about a tithing settlement interview!Lehi
thesometimesaint Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I'm just glad that we get more of an opportunity to repent nowadays.
Freedom Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 What ever makes you comfortable. The actual law of the tithe is 10% of your increase.Yes it is, but the definition of increase is income. This is the fact that you seem to ignore. Increase is a very large word. Does increase include children? If my children grow do I pay tithing on their weight gain? This simple example, I think, drives home the point that this word required a qualifier. The prophet has provided this qualifier. I pay on my income. If I have other financial gains, I give in fast offerings and other ways. You are free to interpret it how you wish, I interpret it as based on my income.
Freedom Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Wasn't there a story in Acts about a couple who held back on their tithing and declared a full tithe when it was not? Again whatever you are comfortable with. As for me, well I would have nothing if it were not for God.Again, you are ignoring the fact that money from insurance is not an increase. It would be like self insuring by putting post tithed money in a savings account and then paying tithing on it again when you take it out to use for some dental work. Your insurance policy is essentially a savings account paid with tithed money. An argument can be made if you live under a tax regime where your employer is allowed to provide a benefit plan without having to make it a taxable benefit. Then the payout would have been from non-tithed funds because it was funded entirely by your employer and never showed up on your income receipt. I have always paid for my own benefit plan. If my car gets damaged, I take it to the shop to be repaired but I do not pay tithing on the cost of repairs paid by my auto insurer. When I go to the dentist and get a filling, I do not pay tithing on the cost of the filling paid by my medical plan. Do you?
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