Is "This Land" In South America?

[stemelbow]

Yesterday in Gospel D a gentleman chimed in and claimed Spencer W Kimball identified some place in Chile as the landing spot for Lehi's company. Does anyone know where I can locate anything on this? Any reference or quote?

Thanks.

[LeSellers]

Yesterday in Gospel D a gentleman chimed in and claimed Spencer W Kimball identified some place in Chile as the landing spot for Lehi's company.

I don't know about that, but Joseph Smith said they landed in Peru (but it is important to remember that "Peru" was, in the XIX, very different: it extended well beyond present-day Peru, going, primarily, a great deal further north).

Modern-day Chile may have been the destination of some of the "lost" Nephites who, according to Moroni, went south to escape the destruction of Cumorah/Ramah. But, as with many things, we have no explicit, scriptural information on the matter.

Lehi

Edited February 13, 2012 by LeSellers

[Calm]

Yesterday in Gospel D a gentleman chimed in and claimed Spencer W Kimball identified some place in Chile as the landing spot for Lehi's company. Does anyone know where I can locate anything on this? Any reference or quote?

Thanks.

If you haven't already, check out FAIR's list of theories: http://en.fairmormon...els/Hemispheric for the original claim though it doesn't list each proponent of it among GAs.

Elder Widtsoe discounts the mention of Chile here: http://en.fairmormon...entieth_century

They who work on the geography of the Book of Mormon have little else than the preceding approaches with which to work, viz [that is]: that Nephites found their way into what is now the state of Illinois; that the plates of the Book of Mormon were found in a hill in northwestern New York State; that a statement exists of doubtful authenticity that Lehi and his party landed on the shore of the land now known as Chile; and that under the Prophet's editorship Central America was denominated the region of Book of Mormon activities.

Perhaps this will be helpful: http://maxwellinstit...d=71&chapid=781

If President Kimball did say something about this (not finding anything yet, will still keep looking), it was most likely during this talk:

On 27 February 1977, President Spencer W. Kimball addressed an audience of more than 7,000.

http://globalmormonism.byu.edu/?page_id=19 Edited February 13, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Here's something but it is a cautious comment:

These people abandoned Jerusalem on the eve of its destruction by Nebuchadnezzar and probably landed on the west coast of South America where the ocean currents drove them later to meet and combine with remnants of the earlier migrants; this greatest movement was made in a ship constructed by a young builder who may never have seen an ocean-going vessel.

http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1263

[stemelbow]

Here's something but it is a cautious comment:

http://scriptures.by...alk.php?ID=1263

A hat tip to you for such speedy and helpful research skills. This sounds like it could have been what the fine gentleman in the ward had in mind. HIs was stated uncautiously. Caution seems appropriate.

[poulsenll]

The best authority on the location of Book of Mormon events, in my opinion, should be the author of the abridgment that describes those events. In the book of Alma, Mormon (the author) records an aside in which he describes the lands of the Nephites and Lamanites. In this description, he describes a natural geographic feature that divided the two cultures.

Alma 22:

27 And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west—and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.

The only known location for such a feature is found on the border between Guatemala and the Mexican state of Chiapas. It can be clearly viewed in three dimensions using Google Earth and still serves as a dividing line between cultures. No such feature is found in South America or the United States as verified by an extensive search using detailed three dimensioanal views. For those who may doubt, I suggest, as I have done, that you make such a search. It is not a trivial task and takes a significant amount of time but it is possible for anyone with a computor ( and I presume most of you do or you would not be on this board) to do it.

It is possible that the Nephite ship may have made its first landing on the west coast of South American, if for no other reason than to reprovision their ship before sailing on to thier final landing place, most likely on the south coast of Chiapas, Mexico.

Until such time as you are willing to invest the time and study of the Book of Mormon to draw your own conclusions about where it took place, that you view with caution statements made by others who may or may not have invested more than a casual look at a map of the Americas or listened to a talk about the local mythology and conclded that it must have taken place at a particular place.

Larry P

[Freedom]

I agree with Poulsenll. I completed my own study of the geography as expressed in the BoM and came to some different conclusions than Sorenson, however it was clear that the book allows for few possible locations. This is also easy to do with digital scriptures. Print out every reference to north, south, east, west, as well as all the city names. Then start to map it out.

[poulsenll]

Freedom

I did not completely agree with Sorenson either. His attempt to skew the directions to make the Gulf of Mexico be an east sea is both unneeded and unsupported by the text. If the Cuchamatan mountain range is the narrow strip of wilderness then the Gulf cannot be the east sea and their is no need to justify twisting the directions. Sorenson justifies it based on the Hebrew use of the Mediteranean Sea as a substitute for west. However the actual word used is back meaning west when facing sunrise with ones back to the sea. He basically ignores the importance of identifying the narrow strip of wilderness. Diane Wirth takes him to task for this in an article "If the shoe fits" found on the Neal A. Maxwell web site.

Larry P

[Calm]

Diane Wirth takes him to task for this in an article "If the shoe fits" found on the Neal A. Maxwell web site.

Larry P

Or do you mean: "Does the Shoe Fit? A Critique of the Limited Tehuantepec Geography."

Deanne G. Matheny

[poulsenll]

Or do you mean: "Does the Shoe Fit? A Critique of the Limited Tehuantepec Geography."

Deanne G. Matheny

Thanks for the correction. that is the correct one.

Larry P

[cinepro]

During the lesson on Sunday, I asked my class (17 year olds) where they thought "The Promised Land" was, and where the Lehites landed. Some said Central America, some said South America, some didn't know.

So I asked them to turn to the map of the Book of Mormon in the back of their scriptures. The one right before the index, after the Pronunciation Guide. I let them flip pages around for about 30 seconds before explaining to them that there is no map in the back of the Book of Mormon becuse other than Jerusalem and the Hill Cumorah, we have no idea where any of these events took place.

I then explained to them that if they wanted, they could pay someone to walk around the jungles of Central America and tell them where they think these events took place. Or, if they don't have a passport, they could pay someone to walk them around Ohio and New York and tell them where they think these things took place. But they should always beware those who seem really, really sure about the location of Book of Mormon events, because we just don't know.

When the subject of the "creation" came up, I also asked how many of them believed in "evolution". None of them did, so I explained some of ways LDS scientists (and scientifically minded) reconcile the two, to suggest that they don't have to adopt a hard-line anti-evolution stance. Every week I'm hoping I'll get a call from a parent, but it never happens.

Edited February 14, 2012 by cinepro

[Freedom]

Every week I'm hoping I'll get a call from a parent, but it never happens.

Well, I get calls from parents all the time. Well, perhaps not all the time. I was once challenging the notion of skin color curses and pointed to the picture on the wall of the very white Adam and Eve. I suggested that they were probably Chinese. There were, if I recall, 8 students in the class and only one was 'white'. This lone student shook his head in agreement, the other so-called visible minorities all were horrified. For them, Adam was white and they have the curse of Cain. I don't mean to pull the discussion off topic, I was just using this as an example to go along with your geography discussion. In terms of the north south matter proposed by Sorensen, I don't have too much of a problem with it based on the religions beliefs of the Mayans, but regardless we just don't know where it took place.

[Alan]

I believe the Book of Mormon story was played out in the Great Lakes area.

[rodheadlee]

I believe the Book of Mormon story was played out in the Great Lakes area.

Where do you suppose Nephi landed his boat? They couldn't sail up the Niagra Falls.

[Alan]

Where do you suppose Nephi landed his boat? They couldn't sail up the Niagra Falls.

Are you serious?

[frankenstein]

The older version of the book of Mormon student manual made reference to Joseph smith and Peru.

The peruvians have a saying that god gave the most beautiful land to the most wicked people.

[JAHS]

John Walsh dedicated an entire chapter on this in his book "Reexploring the Book of Mormon" where he says that much of the debate about a landing in Chile centers around the origin of a statement written by Frederick G. Williams, stating that Lehi "landed on the continent of South America in Chile thirty degrees south Lattitude." Williams claims that the idea came from Joseph Smith but there is no solid documentation of this.

He said that this idea was so popular during the nineteenth century that Orson Pratt included it in his notes to the 1879 edition of the Book of Mormon and in several other publications. Here's a link to the article:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=71&chapid=781

It's possible that President Kimball (or whoever it was that said this) was refering to this once popular belief.

[Calm]

Here's a link to the article:

http://maxwellinstit...d=71&chapid=781

It's possible that President Kimball (or whoever it was that said this) was refering to this once popular belief.

Ha! Beat you by 14 posts! (just teasing...when more than one person mentions a source, I think it more likely to be read so I see repetition as a good thing...confirmation that something is worth your time)

[livy111us]

Ha! Beat you by 14 posts! (just teasing...when more than one person mentions a source, I think it more likely to be read so I see repetition as a good thing...confirmation that something is worth your time)

But there is documentation of missionaries teaching this exact principal as early as 1830. I doubt this is a concept they came up with all on their own, but probably heard it from the founder of the Church before teaching it. These were new converts who were relying on everything Joseph Smith said to teach the Gospel. This adds to the claim that Joseph Smith taught it.

They taught that the Lehites “landed on the coast of Chili [sic] 600” B.C.,and from them descended all the Indians of America.”

Observer and Telegraph. Religious, Political, and Literary, Hudson, Ohio (18 November 1830): 3.

[JAHS]

OK I found something in a book called "Spencer W. Kimball: Resolute Disciple, Prophet of God"

"In Vià del Mar on the Chilean coast west of Santiago, he(President Kimball) was impressed by the fertility of the land, and he wondered whether father Lehi and his family had landed there after their crossing, as some scholars had speculated."

So we know that at least he was considering the possiblity.

[poulsenll]

I think that there is little doubt that early saints thought of Book of Mormon geography from a hemispheric point of view, including Joseph Smith. It was not until after Joseph Smith was introduced to Frederick Catherwood's Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatán that he began to espouse a more northern but not necesarily a limited geography. He suggested that the center of Nephite occupation was in Guatamala. Apparently there was a great deal of speculation at that time with little or no agreement on any details. Above all there was no indication that any of this was supported by revelation.

As I said in post #6, it is very likely that Nephi and his ship may have landed on the west coast of Chile to take on provisions before continuing thier journey.

Larry P

Edited February 15, 2012 by poulsenll

[rodheadlee]

Are you serious?

Well, yeah. Where do you propose a landing site?

[Wiki Wonka]

During the lesson on Sunday, I asked my class (17 year olds) where they thought "The Promised Land" was, and where the Lehites landed. Some said Central America, some said South America, some didn't know.

So I asked them to turn to the map of the Book of Mormon in the back of their scriptures. The one right before the index, after the Pronunciation Guide. I let them flip pages around for about 30 seconds before explaining to them that there is no map in the back of the Book of Mormon becuse other than Jerusalem and the Hill Cumorah, we have no idea where any of these events took place.

If you had been teaching Sunday School in the 1970's, you could have checked out this filmstrip from the meetinghouse library and shown it in class:

[inquiringmind]

I think that there is little doubt that early saints thought of Book of Mormon geography from a hemispheric point of view, including Joseph Smith. It was not until after Joseph Smith was introduced to Frederick Catherwood's Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatán that he began to espouse a more northern but not necesarily a limited geography. He suggested that the center of Nephite occupation was in Guatamala. Apparently there was a great deal of speculation at that time with little or no agreement on any details. Above all there was no indication that any of this was supported by revelation.

As I said in post #6, it is very likely that Nephi and his ship may have landed on the west coast of Chile to take on provisions before continuing thier journey.

Larry P

But Mormon and Moroni were in North America, where the final battle between the Nephites and the Lamanites took place, and where the plates were buried (in Up State New York)?

The people and culture spread north over the centuries, right?

Edited March 31, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Bikeemikey]

Is there evidence the battle took place at the same place the plates were buried?

(null)