Jeredites

[The Nehor]

According to the Book of Mormon account, they didn't give each other a chance to escape:

Ether 14:

17 Now the name of the brother of Lib was called Shiz. And it came to pass that Shiz pursued after Coriantumr, and he did overthrow many cities, and he did slay both women and children, and he did burn the cities.

18 And there went a fear of Shiz throughout all the land; yea, a cry went forth throughout the land—Who can stand before the army of Shiz? Behold, he sweepeth the earth before him!

19 And it came to pass that the people began to flock together in armies, throughout all the face of the land.

20 And they were divided; and a part of them fled to the army of Shiz, and a part of them fled to the army of Coriantumr.

21 And so great and lasting had been the war, and so long had been the scene of bloodshed and carnage, that the whole face of the land was covered with the bodies of the dead.

22 And so swift and speedy was the war that there was none left to bury the dead, but they did march forth from the shedding of blood to the shedding of blood, leaving the bodies of both men, women, and children strewed upon the face of the land, to become a prey to the worms of the flesh.

23 And the scent thereof went forth upon the face of the land, even upon all the face of the land; wherefore the people became troubled by day and by night, because of the scent thereof.

24 Nevertheless, Shiz did not cease to pursue Coriantumr; for he had sworn to avenge himself upon Coriantumr of the blood of his brother, who had been slain, and the word of the Lord which came to Ether that Coriantumr should not fall by the sword.

25 And thus we see that the Lord did visit them in the fulness of his wrath, and their wickedness and abominations had prepared a way for their everlasting destruction.

26 And it came to pass that Shiz did pursue Coriantumr eastward, even to the borders by the seashore, and there he gave battle unto Shiz for the space of three days.

27 And so terrible was the destruction among the armies of Shiz that the people began to be frightened, and began to flee before the armies of Coriantumr; and they fled to the land of Corihor, and swept off the inhabitants before them, all them that would not join them.

It would be a good idea if people actually read what the book says before embarking on fanciful speculations.

But there was a way to escape. RUN!!!! AVOID!!! FLEE!!!! HIDE!!!!

It's not as if armies marching from battle to battle and wiping out every group of people they encountered would have time to comb the entire continent to make sure there were no stragglers.

What this comes down to is what Ether was talking about. As Moroni was the guy who recorded it for us we should look for a control case. Moroni stated that the Nephites were destroyed. Yet Moroni is clear that some denied the Christ and survived. This is even more striking when you realize that Moroni was mostly using the Jaredites to establish a pattern matching that of the Nephites of whom there were survivors.

[The Nehor]

Evidently you don't know what a hyperbole it. A camel passing through the eye of a needle is a hyperbole. Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel is a hyperbole. If your arm offend thee cut it off is a hyperbole. Hating your father and mother etc. in order to become a disciple of Jesus is a hyperbole. But plain historical narrative is not a hyperbole. That is what we have about the total destruction of the Jaredites.

The Polish nation was also totally destroyed by the Nazis. Yet I ran into a Polish guy. What gives?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[zerinus]

But there was a way to escape. RUN!!!! AVOID!!! FLEE!!!! HIDE!!!!

It's not as if armies marching from battle to battle and wiping out every group of people they encountered would have time to comb the entire continent to make sure there were no stragglers.

What this comes down to is what Ether was talking about. As Moroni was the guy who recorded it for us we should look for a control case. Moroni stated that the Nephites were destroyed. Yet Moroni is clear that some denied the Christ and survived. This is even more striking when you realize that Moroni was mostly using the Jaredites to establish a pattern matching that of the Nephites of whom there were survivors.

That is where the difference is. The Book of Mormon actually tells us that some of the Nephites survived; and the same Book of Mormon actually tells us that none of the Jaredites survived. What makes you think that the Book of Mormon can be trusted to tell us the truth in the first instance, but is not in the second? It is the same book after all.

Edited January 31, 2012 by zerinus

[The Nehor]

That is where the difference is. The Book of Mormon actually tells us that some of the Nephites survived; and the same Book of Mormon actually tells us that none of the Jaredites survived. What makes you think that the Book of Mormon can be trusted to tell us the truth in the first instance, but is not in the second? It is the same book after all.

It actually doesn't tell me that NONE of the Jaredites survived.

[zerinus]

The Polish nation was also totally destroyed by the Nazis. Yet I ran into a Polish guy. What gives?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Did Mormoni say that? Hmmm, I don't recall reading that in the Book of Mormon anywhere.

[zerinus]

It actually doesn't tell me that NONE of the Jaredites survived.

actually it does, more than once.

[The Nehor]

Did Mormoni say that? Hmmm, I don't recall reading that in the Book of Mormon anywhere.

2 Nehor 2:18

Easy to miss. It's between the clown holocaust and the alien probe scene.

[The Nehor]

actually it does, more than once.

CFR

[zerinus]

CFR

Ether 12:

20 And in the days of Coriantor there also came many prophets, and prophesied of great and marvelous things, and cried repentance unto the people, and except they should repent the Lord God would execute judgment against them to their utter destruction;

21 And that the Lord God would send or bring forth another people to possess the bland, by his power, after the manner by which he brought their fathers.

22 And they did reject all the words of the prophets, because of their secret society and wicked abominations.

Ether 13:

20 And in the second year the word of the Lord came to Ether, that he should go and prophesy unto Coriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the people—

21 Otherwise they should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself. And he should only live to see the fulfilling of the prophecies which had been spoken concerning another people receiving the land for their inheritance; and Coriantumr should receive a burial by them; and every soul should be destroyed save it were Coriantumr.

So Ether was not the only one who prophesied of this destruction. Other prophets prophesied, and their prophecies predict a complete destruction, with no survivors except one.

Ether 15:

32 And it came to pass that Coriantumr fell to the earth, and became as if he had no life.

33 And the Lord spake unto Ether, and said unto him: Go forth. And he went forth, and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled; and he finished his record; (and the hundredth part I have not written) and he hid them in a manner that the people of Limhi did find them.

34 Now the last words which are written by Ether are these: Whether the Lord will that I be translated, or that I suffer the will of the Lord in the flesh, it mattereth not, if it so be that I am saved in the kingdom of God. Amen.

So the prophecy was completely fulfilled. There were no survivors. And if there had been survivors, why would Ether not join them? Why would he hope to die or be translated, instead of joining the survivors?

Omni 1:

21 And they gave an account of one Coriantumr, and the slain of his people. And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons.

If there had been survivors, why would Coriantumr not join them? And why were they not discovered by the BoM people? If they were, why would they want to mention only Coriantumr, and not the rest?

[Freedom]

Evidently you don't know what a hyperbole it. A camel passing through the eye of a needle is a hyperbole. Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel is a hyperbole. If your arm offend thee cut it off is a hyperbole. Hating your father and mother etc. in order to become a disciple of Jesus is a hyperbole. But plain historical narrative is not a hyperbole. That is what we have about the total destruction of the Jaredites.

I don't think you will find any biblical or linguistics scholars that would agree with you. Hyperbole is exaggeration and you have been shown numerous examples of it. You prefer to take every passage of scripture literally which is your prerogative; I don't believe that what we know of ancient languages justifies this approach.

[Freedom]

Ether 12:

20 And in the days of Coriantor there also came many prophets, and prophesied of great and marvelous things, and cried repentance unto the people, and except they should repent the Lord God would execute judgment against them to their utter destruction;

21 And that the Lord God would send or bring forth another people to possess the bland, by his power, after the manner by which he brought their fathers.

22 And they did reject all the words of the prophets, because of their secret society and wicked abominations.

Ether 13:

20 And in the second year the word of the Lord came to Ether, that he should go and prophesy unto Coriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the people—

21 Otherwise they should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself. And he should only live to see the fulfilling of the prophecies which had been spoken concerning another people receiving the land for their inheritance; and Coriantumr should receive a burial by them; and every soul should be destroyed save it were Coriantumr.

So Ether was not the only one who prophesied of this destruction. Other prophets prophesied, and their prophecies predict a complete destruction, with no survivors except one.

Ether 15:

32 And it came to pass that Coriantumr fell to the earth, and became as if he had no life.

33 And the Lord spake unto Ether, and said unto him: Go forth. And he went forth, and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled; and he finished his record; (and the hundredth part I have not written) and he hid them in a manner that the people of Limhi did find them.

34 Now the last words which are written by Ether are these: Whether the Lord will that I be translated, or that I suffer the will of the Lord in the flesh, it mattereth not, if it so be that I am saved in the kingdom of God. Amen.

So the prophecy was completely fulfilled. There were no survivors. And if there had been survivors, why would Ether not join them? Why would he hope to die or be translated, instead of joining the survivors?

Omni 1:

21 And they gave an account of one Coriantumr, and the slain of his people. And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons.

If there had been survivors, why would Coriantumr not join them? And why were they not discovered by the BoM people? If they were, why would they want to mention only Coriantumr, and not the rest?

Those who left the group would not have been jaradites anymore.

[Calm]

I've read it 5 or 6 times. That's just not true. There's no comparisson between the conflict of ideas that takes place in our democratic process and the slaughter of women and children that ends the Jaredites and Nephites.

Look at Mitt vs. Newt. Some harsh words are exchanged, but no one is cutting off his opponent's head. Please show me one example where Americans are killing each other over party affiliation. It doesn't happen.

There are places though where political associations do decide who is running the country by going to war instead of the ballot such as the Bolsheviks and Tsarists factions in Russia.

[cinepro]

Nevamind. Too political.

Edited January 31, 2012 by cinepro

[poulsenll]

There were seven families that came over with Jared and his brother. We have a history of only the descendents of Jared and his brother. They were called jaredites because they were descendents of Jared and his brother. We have no record of the others or any idea what they called themselves. I doubt if they called themselves Jaredites or considered themselves part of his descendents. It is far more likely that they parted ways as soon as they arrived. Mesoamerican mythology suggests that the inhabitants of the Americas came from seven caves and formed seven different reoples independent of each other. Ether is quite emphatic in calling the participents in the war of extinction as his people and his (Coriantmr's) household. In other words those of common descent from Jared and his brother.

Larry P

Edited February 1, 2012 by poulsenll

[The Nehor]

Ether 12:

20 And in the days of Coriantor there also came many prophets, and prophesied of great and marvelous things, and cried repentance unto the people, and except they should repent the Lord God would execute judgment against them to their utter destruction;

21 And that the Lord God would send or bring forth another people to possess the bland, by his power, after the manner by which he brought their fathers.

22 And they did reject all the words of the prophets, because of their secret society and wicked abominations.

Ether 13:

20 And in the second year the word of the Lord came to Ether, that he should go and prophesy unto Coriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the people—

21 Otherwise they should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself. And he should only live to see the fulfilling of the prophecies which had been spoken concerning another people receiving the land for their inheritance; and Coriantumr should receive a burial by them; and every soul should be destroyed save it were Coriantumr.

So Ether was not the only one who prophesied of this destruction. Other prophets prophesied, and their prophecies predict a complete destruction, with no survivors except one.

One refers to destruction of the Jaredite way of life or the destruction of every human in it? I choose the latter.

The second refers to the household of Coriantumr not all the people. I would suggest that he says spare the people he meant spare them the dissolution of the government and the millions dead not spare them from extinction.

Ether 15:

32 And it came to pass that Coriantumr fell to the earth, and became as if he had no life.

33 And the Lord spake unto Ether, and said unto him: Go forth. And he went forth, and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled; and he finished his record; (and the hundredth part I have not written) and he hid them in a manner that the people of Limhi did find them.

34 Now the last words which are written by Ether are these: Whether the Lord will that I be translated, or that I suffer the will of the Lord in the flesh, it mattereth not, if it so be that I am saved in the kingdom of God. Amen.

So the prophecy was completely fulfilled. There were no survivors. And if there had been survivors, why would Ether not join them? Why would he hope to die or be translated, instead of joining the survivors?

I disagree about the nature of the prophecy. Ether was done. He seems to have been a member of the royal family. I would imagine most of the survivors wouldn't want anyone who could reignite the conflict and many of them were probably hardened in sin.

Omni 1:

21 And they gave an account of one Coriantumr, and the slain of his people. And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons.

If there had been survivors, why would Coriantumr not join them? And why were they not discovered by the BoM people? If they were, why would they want to mention only Coriantumr, and not the rest?

I imagine Coriantumr wouldn't be popular with the survivors after what happened. Those left were renegades against his rulership. Also the Nephite scouts found Coriantumr and the records. Coriantumr was wounded and anyone not interested in his war with Shiz would naturally be far from the scene of the last battle. How would he find them if he wanted to? He also probably knew what kind of reception he was likely to receive.

They possibly were discovered possibly as part of the Mulekite nation which had had a substantial amount of time in which to accept survivors. Others may have joined the Lamanites, the renegade Nephites King Mosiah left behind, or any number of other possibilities.

They mentioned Coriantumr because he is a key piece of the story. Running into a small band of bandits in the wilderness or a peaceful village here or there wouldn't merit inclusion or the Book of Mormon would be many many times larger and less useful for its actual purpose.

[inquiringmind]

There were seven families that came over with Jared and his brother. We have a history of only the descendents of Jared and his brother. They were called jaredites because they were descendents of Jared and his brother. We have no record of the others or any idea what they called themselves. I doubt if they called themselves Jaredites or considered themselves part of his descendents. It is far more likely that they parted ways as soon as they arrived. Mesoamerican mythology suggests that the inhabitants of the Americas came from seven caves and formed seven different peoples independent of each other. Ether is quite emphatic in calling the participents in the war of extinction as his people and his (Coriantmr's) household. In other words those of common descent from Jared and his brother.

Larry P

That's the kind of info I was looking for,

Thank you.

Edited February 1, 2012 by inquiringmind

[zerinus]

The second refers to the household of Coriantumr not all the people. I would suggest that he says spare the people he meant spare them the dissolution of the government and the millions dead not spare them from extinction.

Wrong! It refers to all of the people, not just members of his household. This is what it says:

Ether 13:

20 And in the second year the word of the Lord came to Ether, that he should go and prophesy unto Coriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the people [i.e. the people of his kingdom]—

21 Otherwise they [i.e. the people] should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself. And he should only live to see the fulfilling of the prophecies which had been spoken concerning another people receiving the land for their inheritance; and Coriantumr should receive a burial by them; and every soul [no exceptions] should be destroyed save it were Coriantumr.

[Robert F. Smith]

The perspective of the BoM writers such as Ether is that none did. However, you have a large civilization spanning many centuries and miles beyond the natural vision of the writers. In all that time and space, you can't convince me that no one uprooted and went to live elswhere or in the last battles escaped or were missed or ran away or were not affected. One could argue that the writers had the vision of God to tell them, but I find that highly unlikely in this case. So yes, my opinion is that highly likely many thousands at least were left but not in any location that mattered to Ether or the other writers at the time.

Yes, and one may also consider that the extraordinary Olmec civilization, which was the mother culture of Mesoamerica (and which is often identified with the Jaredites), virtually disappeared and was no longer remembered by subsequent civilizations in Mexico and Guatemala. Naturally not all Olmecs died out and many of them passed on crucial knowledge across a broad range of specialties. Yet as an organized entity they had ceased to exist.

[Robert F. Smith]

Evidently you don't know what a hyperbole it. A camel passing through the eye of a needle is a hyperbole. Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel is a hyperbole. If your arm offend thee cut it off is a hyperbole. Hating your father and mother etc. in order to become a disciple of Jesus is a hyperbole. But plain historical narrative is not a hyperbole. That is what we have about the total destruction of the Jaredites.

Evidently you did not read the citations which I provided:

How literally are we to take the following:

Gen 6:11-13 since “the earth was filled with violence,” and “all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth,” so “God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.” Does this mean that God is going to destroy all life, and the planet as well?

Obviously Noah and his kin were to be excluded from this absolute destruction, along with animals taken on board the ark. And clearly the planet is not to be destroyed.

Gen 7:4 in predicting that “every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth,” is God saying that there will be a planet-wide flood? Or are we trapped into thinking so by the KJV translating “earth” instead of “land,” i.e., indicative of a local/regional flood? Both translations of the Hebrew are entirely valid, and can be used elsewhere to give a more reasonable explanation to a text, as at Mark 16:15 “go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature” (are they expected to go everywhere in the world? is he speaking only to the Eleven? and is he asking them to cast pearls before “creatures” such as swine?).

Lk 2:1 did Caesar Augustus in fact decree “that all the world should be taxed”? Or was that limited to the Roman Empire?

Jn 18:20 Did Jesus in fact speak “openly to the world”? Or openly to people in Palestine?

Mt 3:5-6 did everyone in “Jerusalem and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan” go out to see John the Baptizer and get baptized by him? Of course not. We are reading an enthusiastic account which suggests that “everybody was there!” Meaning that a lot of people went down to the Jordan to see John, not the entire population.

Mt 23:9 call no man father? Are we to take this literally?

Jn 4:39 Did Jesus in fact tell the Samaritan woman at the well everything she had ever done? Or was that merely a manner of speaking about the key things he told her in the short time involved?

Josh 10 - 12 recounts the conquest of Canaan by Joshua and the Israelites, and some of it is particularly harsh in recounting how he “utterly destroyed” this or that city and “all the souls that were therein,” and “left none remaining.” How literally are we to take that?

Ps 95:11 God exiled Israel in the wilderness for 40 years as punishment and said that none of that generation should enter into the Promised Land. Yet Joshua did enter. Do such exceptions prove the rule?

Acts 9:35 Did everyone at Lydda and Saron in fact see Aeneas and were converted to the Lord Jesus Christ? Or is 9:42 a more reasonable statement of the sort of thing which happened?

Edited February 1, 2012 by Robert F. Smith

[zerinus]

Evidently you did not read the citations which I provided:

How literally are we to take the following:

Gen 6:11-13 since “the earth was filled with violence,” and “all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth,” so “God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.” Does this mean that God is going to destroy all life, and the planet as well?

Obviously Noah and his kin were to be excluded from this absolute destruction, along with animals taken on board the ark. And clearly the planet is not to be destroyed.

Gen 7:4 in predicting that “every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth,” is God saying that there will be a planet-wide flood? Or are we trapped into thinking so by the KJV translating “earth” instead of “land,” i.e., indicative of a local/regional flood? Both translations of the Hebrew are entirely valid, and can be used elsewhere to give a more reasonable explanation to a text, as at Mark 16:15 “go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature” (are they expected to go everywhere in the world? is he speaking only to the Eleven? and is he asking them to cast pearls before “creatures” such as swine?).

Lk 2:1 did Caesar Augustus in fact decree “that all the world should be taxed”? Or was that limited to the Roman Empire?

Jn 18:20 Did Jesus in fact speak “openly to the world”? Or openly to people in Palestine?

Mt 3:5-6 did everyone in “Jerusalem and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan” go out to see John the Baptizer and get baptized by him? Of course not. We are reading an enthusiastic account which suggests that “everybody was there!” Meaning that a lot of people went down to the Jordan to see John, not the entire population.

Mt 23:9 call no man father? Are we to take this literally?

Jn 4:39 Did Jesus in fact tell the Samaritan woman at the well everything she had ever done? Or was that merely a manner of speaking about the key things he told her in the short time involved?

Josh 10 - 12 recounts the conquest of Canaan by Joshua and the Israelites, and some of it is particularly harsh in recounting how he “utterly destroyed” this or that city and “all the souls that were therein,” and “left none remaining.” How literally are we to take that?

Ps 95:11 God exiled Israel in the wilderness for 40 years as punishment and said that none of that generation should enter into the Promised Land. Yet Joshua did enter. Do such exceptions prove the rule?

Acts 9:35 Did everyone at Lydda and Saron in fact see Aeneas and were converted to the Lord Jesus Christ? Or is 9:42 a more reasonable statement of the sort of thing which happened?

Then you can’t tell the difference between a metaphor, an idiom, a simile, a hyperbole, and a figure of speech.

[Robert F. Smith]

Then you can’t tell the difference between a metaphor, an idiom, a simile, a hyperbole, and a figure of speech.

I guess not . . .

[Freedom]

Then you can’t tell the difference between a metaphor, an idiom, a simile, a hyperbole, and a figure of speech.

And apparently neither can you.

[The Nehor]

Wrong! It refers to all of the people, not just members of his household. This is what it says:

Ether 13:

20 And in the second year the word of the Lord came to Ether, that he should go and prophesy unto Coriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the people [i.e. the people of his kingdom]—

21 Otherwise they [i.e. the people] should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself. And he should only live to see the fulfilling of the prophecies which had been spoken concerning another people receiving the land for their inheritance; and Coriantumr should receive a burial by them; and every soul [no exceptions] should be destroyed save it were Coriantumr.

Or 'they' means the kingdom. If you insist on taking this hyperliterally you must also explain how Ether was destroyed unless of course you want to argue that he had no soul. Ether certainly wouldn't expect to be translated because in these two verses it is clear Coriantumr is the only exception.

[poulsenll]

Obviously, Ether survived the last battle along with Coriantumr or he could not have described and written down the history of this event. Ether was also commanded to observe the fulfillment of all the details of the prophecy. Where is the record of who inherited Coriantumr's Land of inheritence? This also had to occur after the last battle and therefore Ether, a Jaredite, survived the battle. If this is true, we must interpret "utter destruction" as referring to his kingdom as a whole and not to individuals within the kingdom. It also excludes other kingdoms or peoples who may have descended from the families of the friends that accompanied Jared and his brother.

Keep in mind it only requires one exception to a theory before the theory must be abandoned or modified.

In addition, the archeological record contains evidence of a continuous occupation at some level of the Americas ever since the ice age.

Larry P

[The Nehor]

I think we can all agree that this song applies to most of the Jaredites:

Edited February 2, 2012 by The Nehor