Jeredites

[zerinus]

I would disagree but this is speculation versus speculation so I think debate would be pointless.

I don't see how that has anything to do with it. The argument is between you, me and Rob Osborn; and is aimed at determining which point of view is more logical, and makes better sense on the basis of available evidence. The mere assertion of "disagreement" is not the winning formula in that debate.

[The Nehor]

I don't see how that has anything to do with it. The argument is between you, me and Rob Osborn; and is aimed at determining which point of view is more logical, and makes better sense on the basis of available evidence. The mere assertion of "disagreement" is not the winning formula in that debate.

Well, I doubt anyone is going to win the debate unless you've hired some impartial third party observers to make that determination for us.

In any case my arguments would be as follows:

1. Nephites used some names that seem more Jaredite then Nephite or Mulekite.

2. Extermination of a civilization has never before in the history of the world been that complete by those means.

3. The word destruction as used in the Book of Mormon is often used to mean the destruction of a nation without the total death of everyone in it.

4. Those who spoke of the extinction do not ascribe their conclusions to God but seem to be representing the viewpoint of Ether.

5. The only prophecy regarding the Jaredite destruction (given by God) seems to say that only the household of Coriantumr and the people allied with him would be wiped out.

[Robert F. Smith]

The idea that some Jaredites survived was theorized more than 100 years ago. See sources below. My own opinion is that the Mulekites were half Jaredite; mainly on the maternal side. I also suspect that Coreantumr, the renegade(Helaman Chapter 1) was descended from Coreantumr; the King.(Ether)

The modern Puerto Ricans are a new people who have replaced the old people who's real name we don't know. Taino and Arawak are what Europeans and Caribs called them. We don't know what they called themselves. In one sense, the preColumbian peoples of the island are long gone. Yet, according to recent genetic research, 61% of Puerto Ricans have Native American MtDNA. So, in another sense, the preColumbian people of Puerto Rico are not extinct. In fact they are the majority.

Sources:

Anthony W. Ivins, "Are the Jaredites an Extinct People?" Improvement Era, Novn ,mjember 1902, 44.

B H Roberts, New Witnesses for God 3:137-38 – cited by Matthew Roper "Nephi's Neighbors: Book of Mormon Peoples and Pre-Columbian Populations," FARMS Review of Books, Vol. 15, No. 2, 2003, pp. 91-128

http://www.centrelin.../KearnsDNA.html

Perhaps we could get a real Boricua to chime in on this, namely, Pedro Olavarria. I'll send him a message.

[Maidservant]

Evidently you don't know what a hyperbole it. A camel passing through the eye of a needle is a hyperbole. Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel is a hyperbole. If your arm offend thee cut it off is a hyperbole. Hating your father and mother etc. in order to become a disciple of Jesus is a hyperbole. But plain historical narrative is not a hyperbole. That is what we have about the total destruction of the Jaredites.

Ether is not plain historical narrative. It is a stylized epic telling, and I suspect it conforms to certain literary rules as taught in their culture, nothing we would know about today. I do not offer this observation to agree or disagree with 'total destruction', only to suggest care and understanding in what we have in our hands before we conclude on what we are reading.

Jaredites, as I understand, were 'Asian' in origin; and 'Asian' phrenology in aboriginal peoples of the 'Americas' live still today. So for me, this is enough to say that there are still Jaredites even now.

The biggest question I have about the Jaredites living after the battles is this- As far as I can tell, the last Jaredite battles were taking place around 600-500BC. King Limhi's lost expedition found the land of the Jaredites around 200BC. At the time they found it it was in complete ruins and appears from the text to have no people living on the land. It speaks several times about this civilization in the past tense as being one that was destroyed. No mention is ever made of them finding any people in that land- the land northward. Now of importance is this- If the Jaredites were not destroyed completely and there were indeed souls that escaped, it would have been of considerable size, probably not less than a 100 at minimum. In the space of 300-400 years, they would have repopulated the land and would have had large cities again all throughout the land. But why is there never any mention of these? Finding a civilization of substancial size would have found its way into the BoM pages assuredly. When they found the people of Mulek/Zarahemla it was mentioned in quite some detail. So if they found Zarahemla and mentioned it, then how much more they would have mentioned a much bigger civilization in the land northward!

But, as one can clearly read, the only mention of the fate of the Jaredite nation is one of utter destruction including the people themselves!

Sherem.

~~~

By the way, any discussion regarding patriotism is going to be heavily steeped in presentism, as patriotism is an invention of, hm, the 19th century or so.