inquiringmind Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 I've been reading some of the theories of Amerindian origins, and one of them is that some of the Jeredites survived and intermarried with the Lehites.I thought they were all wiped out, but I was wondering, is there any internal evidence (in the BOM itself) that might suggest that some of them survived?
zerinus Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) I've been reading some of the theories of Amerindian origins, and one of them is that some of the Jeredites survived and intermarried with the Lehites.I thought they were all wiped out, but I was wondering, is there any internal evidence (in the BOM itself) that might suggest that some of them survived?None whatsoever. Only the opposite is implied. Edited January 31, 2012 by zerinus
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted January 31, 2012 Popular Post Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) I've been reading some of the theories of Amerindian origins, and one of them is that some of the Jeredites survived and intermarried with the Lehites.I thought they were all wiped out, but I was wondering, is there any internal evidence (in the BOM itself) that might suggest that some of them survived?HyperboleIn both Bible and Book of Mormon there are many exaggerated statements which are to be understood as hyperbole, a rhetorical figure which one finds in much of ancient literature.1 So when the Jaredites are supposed to be completely destroyed, there is much evidence to the contrary:Hugh Nibley, John Sorenson and Bill Hamblin have each briefly dealt with this question, and their listing of some of the names in common between the Jaredites and Nephites is an instructive clue:2Coriantumr (Jaredite personal name) ➔ Coriantumr (Nephite personal name)Morianton (Jaredite personal name) ➔ Morianton (Nephite coastland)Moron (Jaredite land) ➔ Moron (Jaredite personal name) ➔ Moroni (Nephite land) ➔Moroni (Nephite personal name)Nehor (Jaredite wilderness) ➔ Nehor (Nephite apostate) ➔ Nehor(s), Desolation of(Nephite city/land)3Coriantum / CoriantonCorihor / KorihorDesolation / DesolationKish / KishkumenShiblom / Shiblonetc.Sumero-Akkadian TermsAnother important clue is the appearance of the term sheum in Mosiah 9:9 among a list of food-plants. Since this is a very common word for various types of grain in Mesopotamian Old Akkadian (šeʼum), and since it shows up in the Nephite record frozen in that archaic form (the nominative case ending -um having been dropped long before the appearance of Classical Hebrew), it could only have been transmitted to the Nephites, or to the Mulekites of Zarahemla, via Jaredite remnants. The same may also be true of Nephite Zeram as Akkadian zērum “seed.”1 Genesis 7:21-23, 6:17, 6:18-20, 7:4, Mt 3:5, 23:9, Mk 16:14-15, Lk 2:1, Jn 4:39, 18:20; cf. Genesis 6:12-13, Ex 15:20, Josh 10:40, Ps 95:11, Acts 9:35.2 Nibley, Lehi in the Desert and the World of the Jaredites, rev. ed., CWHN V:242-246; Sorenson, Ancient American Setting, 119-120; Hamblin in D. Largey, ed., Book of Mormon Refernce Companion, 435.3 Nibley, Lehi in the Desert, CWHN, V:244. Edited January 31, 2012 by Robert F. Smith 5
The Nehor Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 The fratricidal armies seem to have been exstinguished but what of those who wisely decided that Shiz and Coriantumr were insane and did not gather to either camp? 4
Buckeye Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 The BOM does not explicitly say one way or the other whether every person who ever identified with the Jaredites was killed in their final battle. It only says that, as a people, the Jaredites were killed off. In my view, the destruction of the Jaredites was no different than that of the Nephites. They ceased to exist as a people, but there were some/many/a whole lot ? of individuals who continued to live and mixed in with other surviving communities. The BOM does explicitly say that individual "Nephites" continued to exist long after the Nephite nation was destroyed. I see no reason why this would not be true of the Jaredites as well. With the numbers of people involved (millions) it seems pretty hard to kill off everyone.
ERayR Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 Were the Democrats and Republicans to take up arms and fight a war of extinction there would be vast number who would follow but as for me and my house we would hunker down and wait out the destruction and carnage. I am also certain that there would be a great host accross this land that would be doing exactly the same.
Buckeye Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 I rather doubt anyone cares so much about party affiliation that they would fight to the death. Now, if we could have a democrat vs. republican vs. socialist vs. libertarian "hunger games" every four years, that would be something else.
ERayR Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 I rather doubt anyone cares so much about party affiliation that they would fight to the death. Now, if we could have a democrat vs. republican vs. socialist vs. libertarian "hunger games" every four years, that would be something else.You might want to read the BoM again. In the end Lamenite and Nephite were pretty much political affiliations ie. ruling faction and contenders.
Buckeye Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 You might want to read the BoM again. In the end Lamenite and Nephite were pretty much political affiliations ie. ruling faction and contenders.I've read it 5 or 6 times. That's just not true. There's no comparisson between the conflict of ideas that takes place in our democratic process and the slaughter of women and children that ends the Jaredites and Nephites. Look at Mitt vs. Newt. Some harsh words are exchanged, but no one is cutting off his opponent's head. Please show me one example where Americans are killing each other over party affiliation. It doesn't happen.
BCSpace Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 I thought they were all wiped out, but I was wondering, is there any internal evidence (in the BOM itself) that might suggest that some of them survived?The perspective of the BoM writers such as Ether is that none did.However, you have a large civilization spanning many centuries and miles beyond the natural vision of the writers. In all that time and space, you can't convince me that no one uprooted and went to live elswhere or in the last battles escaped or were missed or ran away or were not affected. One could argue that the writers had the vision of God to tell them, but I find that highly unlikely in this case.So yes, my opinion is that highly likely many thousands at least were left but not in any location that mattered to Ether or the other writers at the time.
cinepro Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 The fratricidal armies seem to have been exstinguished but what of those who wisely decided that Shiz and Coriantumr were insane and did not gather to either camp?Okay, that has got to be post of the year. I can't wait to use that in Gospel Doctrine.
Traela Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 I think it's interesting that, at least in early Jaredite history, the succession went through the younger sons. What I think happened is, as each of the dozen or so older sons grew up, they went off and established their own kingdoms. By the time of the final conflict, the war would have involved the entire Jaredite kingdom, but only a very small percentage of all the descendants of Jared and company.
LeSellers Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 The fratricidal armies seem to have been exstinguished but what of those who wisely decided that Shiz and Coriantumr were insane and did not gather to either camp?We could also wonder about those who, having joined one army or the other, deserted after wisely deciding (from their much closer vantage point) that Shiz or Coriantumr was insane.The text says they gathered all to one party or the other as they moved into battlefield positions, but it does not say that they went far out of their way to recruit.Lehi
Rob Osborn Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 The scriptures seem quite clear that the prophecy given by Ether to Coriantum was that he himself would be the only survivor and that he would live to see the Lord give the land to another people-20 And in the second year the word of the Lord came to Ether, that he should go and aprophesy unto bCoriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the people—21 Otherwise they should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself. And he should only live to see the fulfilling of the prophecies which had been spoken concerning aanother people receiving the land for their inheritance; and Coriantumr should receive a burial by them; and every soul should be destroyed save it were bCoriantumr.(Book of Mormon | Ether 13:20 - 21) I am sure that teh jaredites were completely destroyed. The reason you have Jaredite names popping up into later Nephite and Lamanite civilizations is because they had the record of the Jaredites as part of their scriptures. I have a sister whose youngest child is named "Teancum" after our scriptures, the great Nephite captain and warrior. Of course, you gan go to a lot of mormons houses who have children named after scripture names. This doesn't mean necessarily that they are descendents of them, only they have a record of that name in scripture.
ERayR Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 Okay, that has got to be post of the year. I can't wait to use that in Gospel Doctrine. What is wrong with it. It has the advantage of being true?
ERayR Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 We could also wonder about those who, having joined one army or the other, deserted after wisely deciding (from their much closer vantage point) that Shiz or Coriantumr was insane.The text says they gathered all to one party or the other as they moved into battlefield positions, but it does not say that they went far out of their way to recruit.LehiAlso there were those who were neither party but were independents? And those who were too old to go chasing off to war?
ERayR Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 The scriptures seem quite clear that the prophecy given by Ether to Coriantum was that he himself would be the only survivor and that he would live to see the Lord give the land to another people-20 And in the second year the word of the Lord came to Ether, that he should go and aprophesy unto bCoriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the people—21 Otherwise they should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself. And he should only live to see the fulfilling of the prophecies which had been spoken concerning aanother people receiving the land for their inheritance; and Coriantumr should receive a burial by them; and every soul should be destroyed save it were bCoriantumr.(Book of Mormon | Ether 13:20 - 21) I am sure that teh jaredites were completely destroyed. The reason you have Jaredite names popping up into later Nephite and Lamanite civilizations is because they had the record of the Jaredites as part of their scriptures. I have a sister whose youngest child is named "Teancum" after our scriptures, the great Nephite captain and warrior. Of course, you gan go to a lot of mormons houses who have children named after scripture names. This doesn't mean necessarily that they are descendents of them, only they have a record of that name in scripture.You read too literally my friend. Ether was a member of the ruling family and it does indeed he is the only member of the ruling family to survive.
BCSpace Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 The scriptures seem quite clear that the prophecy given by Ether to Coriantum was that he himself would be the only survivor and that he would live to see the Lord give the land to another people-As per the above, I think a case could be made for everyone but of his household would be destroyed, not the entire population. Makes better sense to me that the two households and their numerous allies went down in battle. To destroy an entire civilzation every whit would require that population either to be in a very very limited geographical area or a whole continent or planet destroyed.
The Nehor Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 Scene: A small Jaredite village. A recruiter for Coriantumr shows up to tell the people to gather to him.Recruiter: Coriantumr is the true king. Gather at once to defend your king from the depredations of the evil Shiz.Man: Why do we need to gather?Recruiter: Because we are going to fight one last titanic battle with Shiz. In it we will annihilate him and restore peace.Man: So..........we are going to fight a battle. Seems like a patriotic thing to do. Still....I'm curious, what is the battle plan?Recruiter: We will arm everyone including the women and children and all will stand between the king and danger. Ideally this means the king will die last.Man: Uh-huh....so the plan is to die rather then let them get to the king? What is Shiz's plan?Recruiter: Our spies believe Shiz is using the same strategy.Man: I assume we outnumber the enemy then?Recruiter: No, pretty much evenly matched.Man: Do we have the advantage in combat training then?Recruiter: Well, admittedly we imagine that our child soldiers will do better if we had some kind of easily usable projectile weapon but we are giving "Stab them in the Knee" lessons.Man: And Shiz is doing the same thing?Recruiter: Oh yes.Man: So evenly matched in all respects and both sides set up to make sure everyone dies before the king does? Let me make sure I'm understanding you here. You want me and my family to join in this battle including my four-year old daughter. If we lose we'll all be dead because we died before the king did. Since the armies are evenly matched if Corinatumr wins most likely we'll be cut down before Shiz is.Recruiter: Probably pretty fair assessment but your king commands it.Man: Well, that makes all the difference. We'll pack up and be on our way tomorrow morning.Recruiter: Great, see you there.Man: Abish, get the kids ready to travel. We are getting as far from this madhouse as possible. 2
BCSpace Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Recruiter: Probably pretty fair assessment but your king commands it.Man: Well, that makes all the difference. We'll pack up and be on our way tomorrow morning.Presentism?There's a lot of things we don't know such as what kind of loyalty to the king this society instills, or whether or not they believed God was on their side, or the premium placed on the honor of dying in battle, etc. Edited January 31, 2012 by BCSpace 1
zerinus Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 HyperboleIn both Bible and Book of Mormon there are many exaggerated statements which are to be understood as hyperbole, a rhetorical figure which one finds in much of ancient literature.1 So when the Jaredites are supposed to be completely destroyed, there is much evidence to the contrary:<snip>Evidently you don't know what a hyperbole it. A camel passing through the eye of a needle is a hyperbole. Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel is a hyperbole. If your arm offend thee cut it off is a hyperbole. Hating your father and mother etc. in order to become a disciple of Jesus is a hyperbole. But plain historical narrative is not a hyperbole. That is what we have about the total destruction of the Jaredites.
zerinus Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 The fratricidal armies seem to have been exstinguished but what of those who wisely decided that Shiz and Coriantumr were insane and did not gather to either camp?According to the Book of Mormon account, they didn't give each other a chance to escape:Ether 14:17 Now the name of the brother of Lib was called Shiz. And it came to pass that Shiz pursued after Coriantumr, and he did overthrow many cities, and he did slay both women and children, and he did burn the cities.18 And there went a fear of Shiz throughout all the land; yea, a cry went forth throughout the land—Who can stand before the army of Shiz? Behold, he sweepeth the earth before him!19 And it came to pass that the people began to flock together in armies, throughout all the face of the land.20 And they were divided; and a part of them fled to the army of Shiz, and a part of them fled to the army of Coriantumr.21 And so great and lasting had been the war, and so long had been the scene of bloodshed and carnage, that the whole face of the land was covered with the bodies of the dead.22 And so swift and speedy was the war that there was none left to bury the dead, but they did march forth from the shedding of blood to the shedding of blood, leaving the bodies of both men, women, and children strewed upon the face of the land, to become a prey to the worms of the flesh.23 And the scent thereof went forth upon the face of the land, even upon all the face of the land; wherefore the people became troubled by day and by night, because of the scent thereof.24 Nevertheless, Shiz did not cease to pursue Coriantumr; for he had sworn to avenge himself upon Coriantumr of the blood of his brother, who had been slain, and the word of the Lord which came to Ether that Coriantumr should not fall by the sword.25 And thus we see that the Lord did visit them in the fulness of his wrath, and their wickedness and abominations had prepared a way for their everlasting destruction.26 And it came to pass that Shiz did pursue Coriantumr eastward, even to the borders by the seashore, and there he gave battle unto Shiz for the space of three days.27 And so terrible was the destruction among the armies of Shiz that the people began to be frightened, and began to flee before the armies of Coriantumr; and they fled to the land of Corihor, and swept off the inhabitants before them, all them that would not join them.It would be a good idea if people actually read what the book says before embarking on fanciful speculations.
The Nehor Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 Presentism?There's a lot of things we don't know such as what kind of loyalty to the king this society instills, or whether or not they believed God was on their side, or the premium placed on the honor of dying in battle, etc.That was a joke. I'm pretty sure John Q. Peasant didn't have friendly talks with a local military recruiter either. The reality (from the book itself) is that you either got out of dodge before they got there, were forced into the military, or were killed.
zerinus Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 As per the above, I think a case could be made for everyone but of his household would be destroyed, not the entire population. Makes better sense to me that the two households and their numerous allies went down in battle. To destroy an entire civilzation every whit would require that population either to be in a very very limited geographical area or a whole continent or planet destroyed.It is a lot easier than that actually. All you have to do is to believe what the Book of Mormon says, and you are done!
cinepro Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 It is a lot easier than that actually. All you have to do is to believe what the Book of Mormon says, and you are done!It might be easy, but you'd never make it as an apologist.
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