My Mormon Polythieism

[Damien the Leper]

I don't personally believe that humans will be deified. However, I'm not opposed to the theology. I'm just not in that mindset theologically.

What is problematic, for me, concerning Trinitarianism is that tries so hard to separate itself from the Oneness Heresy. In my studies, I see the origins of Oneness come from Patripassianism. For those who may not be familiar with this heresy, it means that essentially the Father died on the cross in the form of Jesus.

For Trinitarianism and Oneness to be Biblically rooted we would have to change how we read certain scripture verses. For example, Jesus' baptism in Luke.

Traditional translation:

"This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased".

Reinterpretation:

"This is my beloved Self with whom I am well pleased".

I cannot, for the life of me, imagine that God is a narcissist.

As for the concepts of monolatry and henotheism, they are polytheistic in origin but reinterpreted as well.

[mfbukowski]

I did read it, friend. I'm not sure I can get with Henotheism, tho. Technically we are commanded to pray to the Father in the name of the Son, but in practice we worship them both. Henotheists worship one god only while acknowledging the divinity of other Gods. It seems more related to a sort of political compromise between overlapping belief systems that would otherwise be competitors in a given religious ecology.

Mormons really worship two gods. One is the perfect example of the way to ascend to Heaven from the earth, and the other is the perfect progenitor waiting to receive us.

A mediator is essentially a veil worker. Though Christ is in Heaven now, he will eventually return and 'marry' the 'bride'. The resultant kingdom will (as it is now) be an apparatus for bringing individuals through that veil. On the other side of the veil, perpetually, is God the Father. This is why, IMO, we worship them both and cannot accurately be deemed Henotheists.

Very interesting post! You don't post much, but they are worth waiting for. Hebrews 10:20 says that Christ actually IS the veil.

Edited January 8, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Acris Venator]

Thanks man.

Hebrews 10:20 says that Christ actually IS the veil.

That makes sense. The entire Passion is a huge response to motherhood, from Christ in Gethsemane (a nod to Eve in Eden) and the tearing of the veil in the temple at his death (a reference to the vulva of all mothers). The fact that Christ's ordinances give mankind second birth through his second veil make his working of that veil something more akin to childbirth.

[thesometimesaint]

Is the Holy Ghost part of the Godhead?

[frankenstein]

According to the fair article in the op lds are polytheist and henotheist

Fair might beworth reading if they didn't use it as a forum to attack other religions

Edited January 8, 2012 by frankenstein

[Storm Rider]

We can make the definitions of henotheism and polytheism meet the same definitions for the Trinity and Godhead. I don't think either of these labels is accurate, but many of these terms have no meaning to OT and NT theology; their are man's attempt to fix certain beliefs into boxes. LDS doctrine is the God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are three Gods. We worship the Father by intermediary of the Son and through the Holy Ghost. We pray to the same God that Jesus prays to and the same God of which the Holy Ghost testifies.

It does not matter how many times Trinitarians say there is one God; they also believe in three Gods. This term or concept of "essence" was created to satisfy the fact that Jesus was divine, but still just one God. It is a philosphical construct and nothing more than that.

[frankenstein]

So in the end lds are in fact polytheist or some other form of beleivers in more than one God. And as such LDS shouldn't be ashamed to admit nor try and skirt the issue.

LDS believe in more than one God but only worship God The Father.

Edited January 8, 2012 by frankenstein

[Jaybear]

Tell him that Mormons believe in "one God" as well. The Book of Mormon states more than once that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God.

Does this mean that you don't believe in a Heavenly Mother, or that she, unlike your Heavenly Father, is not exalted?

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

We have no doctrine concerning Heavenly Mother.

[frankenstein]

I believe a "talk" given somewhere south of the United States border the Speaker mentioned Heavenly Mother, the speaker was either the Prophet at the time or became the Prophet later on. The "talk" was printed in a LDS Church published magazine.

But I thought the same, if the LDS believes in Gods and Goddesses.

[TAO]

So in the end lds are in fact polytheist or some other form of beleivers in more than one God. And as such LDS shouldn't be ashamed to admit nor try and skirt the issue.

LDS believe in more than one God but only worship God The Father.

Yeah, I guess. On the other hand, context is important, as always.

[mfbukowski]

Thanks man.

That makes sense. The entire Passion is a huge response to motherhood, from Christ in Gethsemane (a nod to Eve in Eden) and the tearing of the veil in the temple at his death (a reference to the vulva of all mothers). The fact that Christ's ordinances give mankind second birth through his second veil make his working of that veil something more akin to childbirth.

Well you must know about this stuff then.

Edited January 9, 2012 by mfbukowski

[cdowis]

No, but its in the inner ballpark this time.

Yeah, like the TV commercial where they were playing golf using football rules.

[cdowis]

I believe a "talk" given somewhere south of the United States border the Speaker mentioned Heavenly Mother, the speaker was either the Prophet at the time or became the Prophet later on. The "talk" was printed in a LDS Church published magazine.

But I thought the same, if the LDS believes in Gods and Goddesses.

OK, many things are said in talks, and these talks are published in church magazines.

There are many ideas and concepts which are *consistent* with doctrine, but this is not a doctrine of the LDS church. And that does not seem to bother those who desire to mock and make sport with our church. They quote such ideas (going to have our own planet) as if they were fundamental doctrines.

Edited January 9, 2012 by cdowis

[BCSpace]

So in the end lds are in fact polytheist or some other form of beleivers in more than one God. And as such LDS shouldn't be ashamed to admit nor try and skirt the issue.

FAIR is wrong. But I would agree that if we were, we shouldn't worry about it because whatever we are, we are the only Church whose doctrine is in harmony with the Bible.

[BCSpace]

For Trinitarianism and Oneness to be Biblically rooted we would have to change how we read certain scripture verses. For example, Jesus' baptism in Luke.

Traditional translation:

"This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased".

Reinterpretation:

"This is my beloved Self with whom I am well pleased".

I cannot, for the life of me, imagine that God is a narcissist.

A trinitarian would have no problem with "This is my beloved Son" because they believe the Three are separate and distinct Persons. They do however believe that they are the same Being. Of course we know from the Bible that their "Beings" (Godhood, Essences, Substance, etc.) are also separate and distinct as well (Hebrews 1:3).

[supersnail]

Have you tried telling him we're actually henotheists? Because technically, we are.

http://en.wikipedia....sm#Christianity

This keeps cropping up, probably because of Wikipedia. I think it would be helpful if anyone wanting to mention Mormonism were to refrain from making statements to the effect that Mormonism may be henotheistic or monolatrous unless there is a substantive research article explaining why Mormonism is henotheistic or monolatrous. It isn't accurate to say that Mormonism is henotheistic. I would like to see someone make the argument that Mormonism is henotheistic in the context of what scholars have said about Hinduism and historical examples of henotheism. Where really is the resemblance between Mormonism and those?

LDS theology makes no allowance for any being other than the Godhead presided over by Heavenly Father to be worshiped--by anyone, ever. So I would argue that Mormonism isn't henotheistic. It isn't monolatrous for that matter either. If you get into henotheism and monolatry in depth, you'll see that it is possible with henotheism and monolatry for someone else (say, someone in another nation) or oneself to worship a god other than the god that one currently thinks is supreme or worthy of worship by oneself. And many monolators, though maintaining that only one being is supreme, view other deities as having the potential to be worshiped even if there is a normative judgment that they shouldn't be worshiped. LDS theology doesn't permit any of this.

Where is it suggested that worship of another god by people in some nation outside, say, the Americas can be just as good for them as worshiping Heavenly Father is for people in the Americas? Mormonism doesn't contain that idea at all. And where is there a recognition that other gods exist in such a way that Heavenly Father has to demand undivided worship as one god among others that could compete for worship? What gods does Heavenly Father have to be jealous of? There are none perceived even peripherally by Mormonism. The only actually existing gods that could be worshiped (with qualifications regarding two of them) are the three gods united in the Godhead: Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. LDS scripture identifies a few prophets whose exaltation has been "sealed" and who debatably are already gods, but it makes no sense to say that Heavenly Father is asserting Himself as more worthy of worship than them, because Abraham has never contended for worship in the first place.

It is not my understanding that Latter-day Saints could switch from praying to Heavenly Father to praying to Jesus Christ. They will never pray to Abraham or to anyone who has been exalted. They are to pray to Heavenly Father alone, in Jesus Christ's name. Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are distinct, but Jesus Christ isn't worshiped as if the object of worship were different from the Father. (Elder Bruce R. McConkie: "We worship the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Ghost. We follow the Son as he follows his Father. We labor and strive to be like the Son as he is like the Father, and the Father and Son and Holy Ghost are one." Elder Russell M. Nelson: "We worship God the Eternal Father in the name of His Son by the power of the Holy Ghost. We know the premortal Jesus to be Jehovah, God of the Old Testament. We know Him to be "the chief corner stone" upon which the organization of His Church is based. We know Him to be the Rock from whom revelation comes to His authorized agents and to all who worthily seek Him.") This order and way of things doesn't change, and there's no reason to suppose that people on another earth may worship a god other than Heavenly Father and be just as correct as people worshiping Heavenly Father.

One book that considers Mormonism monolatrous also considers monolatry to be polytheistic and unscriptural. To the extent that sophisticated critics of the LDS Church want to back down from their accusation that the LDS Church is polytheistic and want to instead write on Wikipedia and various places on the web that Mormonism is henotheistic or monolatrous and make it clear they aren't alleging polytheism or claiming that what they are calling "monotheism" is better than what Mormonism is, maybe that is a welcome development. However, "monolatry" isn't accurate, and "henotheism" is even less so.

If it's possible to speak of "solar monotheism" with regard to Egyptian sun worship, Mormonism should be considered as belonging to a more advanced kind of monotheism or considered at least as monotheistic as Atenism. If they shouldn't be put in the same category at all, but Atenism is to be considered monotheistic still, lack of monotheism shouldn't be considered a deficiency of Mormonism. Recognizing that Mormonism is the most powerful antidote to idolatry is more important than holding on to a term, "monotheism," that others may eventually succeed in redefining and debasing (though I believe that most serious, honest researchers today would classify Mormonism as monotheistic if they consider the idea of a just and personal God important). The way "monotheism" has been defined by critics of Mormonism makes it seem like solar monotheism and some volcano cults are more advanced than Mormonism. The opposite is true.

I'm open to the idea that Mormonism doesn't fit in any of the existing categories. The closest fit, however, would have to be monotheism. Monolatry is the next best contender, but it's misleading. The Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, don't have anything like "gods of the Egyptians" spoken of as if they actually existed. It's not that LDS doctrine is saying that Heavenly Father is worthy of worship and other gods being worshiped aren't. Such other gods aren't viewed as existing in the first place.

No gods of other worlds or universes have been named. Even if they existed in a hierarchy with Heavenly Father at the top, we aren't in some situation where we could drift away from worshiping Heavenly Father because of an awareness of other gods, a danger that monolatry recognizes in itself even as it asserts the worship of one god or the belief that one god is supreme.

Defining monotheism as an abstract belief that only one god exists, where the meaning of "god" must depend on either the person using the term "monotheism" or on the believer, allows non-Mormon Christians downplaying the New Testament doctrine of theosis and defining the Trinity as "one God" to claim monotheism. However, such a vacuous definition of monotheism divorced from the analysis of how the religion under consideration addresses issues of worship, morality, and idolatry, isn't helpful for understanding religions or their development--especially not the religions and denominations that exist today, at a time when profession of belief that only one god exists is unremarkable. Monotheism became necessary because of idolatry, a matter lost in dictionary definitions. Many Christians claiming to be "strict" monotheists are nonetheless idolaters. Their definition and singular use of the noun "god" may permit them to call themselves "monotheists" by a simplistic dictionary definition, but their churches represent an apostasy from the one true God and an apostasy from the best church that developed in the monotheistic milieu. Hopefully, they will not preoccupy themselves with Merriam-Webster publications for too long and will correct deficiencies in their own beliefs and practices.

One feature of some instances of henotheism is the idea that different gods are just avatars of or names for the same god. To the extent that "henotheism" may be applied to Christianity at all, one could argue that creedal trinitarian Christianity is henotheistic in ways that Mormonism isn't. For example, Trinitarian Christians pray to both the Father and the Son and worship them individually while also worshiping "the Trinity" and even praying to "the Trinity." (Many emphasize prayer to and worship of Jesus, to a point that seems to reverse the roles of the Father and the Son or minimize the Father's role, while believing that Jesus is one god with the Father.) LDS doctrine, on the other hand, is clear that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are distinct beings and that Heavenly Father is the proper object of prayer. This doesn't change with circumstances or one's mood. Also, LDS worship doesn't imply that "the Trinity" is a fourth god that may subsume the Father. In LDS doctrine, the Father presides over the Godhead.

I hear some Latter-day Saints saying that they "worship" Jesus Christ, even though there is not only Jesus' own instruction to pray to the Father in the name of the Son, but repeatedly different general authorities have used expressions such as "worship the Father in the name of the Son" apparently without being corrected. Perhaps because there is nothing to correct. D&C 59:5: "Wherefore, I give unto them a commandment, saying thus: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy might, mind, and strength; and in the name of Jesus Christ thou shalt serve him." D&C 20:29: "And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God."

I'm not too sure yet what to make of this issue of statements of worshiping the Son versus worshiping the Father in the name of the Son, but I've certainly never heard "pray to Jesus Christ" from a Latter-day Saint, and Mormons who are saying they worship Jesus Christ may want to consider whether what they are calling worship of Jesus Christ as if it differed from worship of Heavenly Father is really specifically toward Jesus, or if it is not also directed toward Heavenly Father, albeit in the name of Jesus Christ.

The statements at http://lds.org/study...orship?lang=eng and http://lds.org/ensig...orship?lang=eng are evidence of true monotheism. There is nothing about something like praying before one statue of Jesus Christ and then another for Heavenly Father, or an altar or ceremony for Jesus Christ and a different one for Heavenly Father. There's no mention of sacrifices or offerings to Jesus with separate ones for the Father. Nor are people to alternately pray to the Son and pray to the Father. Nor is a belief that we are worshiping both the Son and the Father sufficient. Mere belief in Jesus Christ isn't saving either. Rather, one is to worship by praying to Heavenly Father and obeying His laws, ordinances, and commandments. We are to follow Jesus in word and deed as He follows His Father. We get close to God by doing good things, not by mere professions of belief in one god. Keeping God's commandments and avoiding idolatry is the real content of monotheism. Jesus' commandments and His Father's commandments don't differ. In what way does it make sense to say that following these commandments is to really worship two beings or worship one god under two names somehow excluding the Holy Spirit? Jesus Christ is the example all of us, everyone in the world, should follow. Through His atonement and resurrection, Jesus Christ is the Savior. Jesus Christ is a light to all the world and heads the one true church, and it is in His name that we are to continually communicate with, obey and worship Heavenly Father, by the power of the Holy Spirit--or in other words, we are to worship the Godhead presided over by Heavenly Father. This is a truly monotheistic orientation.

Edited January 9, 2012 by supersnail

[cdowis]

One Substance doctrine

Evangelists have a thorny issue with John 20 [17] Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

First, Christ had a resurrected body of flesh and bones. Second, He had not ascended to his Father yet.

Christ has a physical body vs a spirit body of the Father? And, he is one substance with the Father, but he had not ascended to the Father?

This seems to contradict Constantine's doctrine of "one substance".

Edited January 9, 2012 by cdowis

[mfbukowski]

This seems to contradict Constantine's doctrine of "one substance".

Hey what are you talking about? It made his empire "one" didn't it?

[Storm Rider]

So in the end lds are in fact polytheist or some other form of beleivers in more than one God. And as such LDS shouldn't be ashamed to admit nor try and skirt the issue.

LDS believe in more than one God but only worship God The Father.

LDS believe in the Godhead and as such we should not shirk from saying that we believe in three Gods. As commanded we pray to the Father; the same God that Jesus prayed to. The Godhead is worthy of worship though we do not have any direct process, imho, of worshipping Jesus. In my mind all that I do is directed to the Father through Jesus Christ.

One of the things that irks is the smug and inifinitely ignorant accusations that fly from those that assail the saints with this accusation that we are not monotheists. They do not understand their own doctrine or their own teachings. The pot calling the kettle black gets old.

[Jaybear]

Jaybear:

We have no doctrine concerning Heavenly Mother.

OK, many things are said in talks, and these talks are published in church magazines.

There are many ideas and concepts which are *consistent* with doctrine, but this is not a doctrine of the LDS church.

I didn't ask if you have official "doctrine" concerning Heavenly Mother. I asked you if you believed in a Heavenly Mother, and if so, whether you believe she is exhalted.

Long ago, I was told by faithful Mormon friends and who had no reason to mislead or prevaricate, that Mormons believe in a Heavenly Mother.

Lets see if get this. You believe that gender is eternal. You believe that God a male. You believe that you are, literally, God's children. But you don't believe in a Heavenly Mother.

You would deny the existence of your Heavenly Mother, just avoid being labeled as a polytheist?

[LeSellers]

You would deny the existence of your Heavenly Mother ...

We cannot and do not deny Her existence: She is a part of our doctrine. Eliza Snow's hymn, "O, My Father" proclaims Her. The Proclamation to the World: The Family announces Her.

What we do "deny" is that we know much about Her (or why—although I have ideas on why this is so), so we cannot talk about Her in any meaningful way.

Lehi

[thesometimesaint]

Lehi:

Neither one establishes doctrine. However personally I believe she exists, even if I don't know much about her.

Edited January 9, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[LeSellers]

Lehi:

Neither one establishes doctrine. However personally I believe she exists, even if I don't know much about her.

Hymns is signed by the First Presidency.

The Proclamation is signed by all fifteen prophets, seers, and revelators.

It's doctrine.

Lehi

[coolrok7]

“My Mormon Polytheism”—Anakin7

Joseph Smith (belief in a plurality of Gods is polytheism, whether worshipped or not):

. . .I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years. . . .The head God organized the heavens and the earth. I defy all the world to refute me. In the beginning the heads of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth. . . .The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take [that] view of the subject, it sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfection of the Gods. . . . (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith)