My Mormon Polythieism

[Storm Rider]

According to President Hinckley, we do worship Christ. I can't believe some Latter-day Saints actually try to avoid saying that. It's unbelievable to me.

This has been said by several leaders; however, I think there is a semantic or definitional issue that confuses us. The definition of worship is:

• 
  
  1. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
     
  2. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
     

  [*]Ardent devotion; adoration.

  [*]often Worship Chiefly British. Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.

If we focus on 1a. then I think it is easy for all LDS to concur that we worship Jesus Christ. However, if the focus is 2b. then I think there is confusion or disagreement. All of our prayers, ceremonies, ordinances are directed to God the Father.

The focus then becomes the context of the conversation and it is easy for LDS to be on both sides depending upon the context or the definition used. For me, I generally only think of worship as defined by 1b. In this context, I only worship the Father. However, if the context is 1a., then of course I worship Jesus. Does this make sense?

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/worship#ixzz1j2TPF1ro

[altersteve]

I guess I just don't separate it that way. That's not how my mind works. Yes, our prayers and ceremonies are directed to the Father, but we still worship Jesus Christ. To worship one is to worship the other. There's no separation there for me. I do get what you're saying, though, and I do agree.

[Anakin7]

I invited my Baptist Minister friend to the board here but after he came and read the posts he stated that he felt that he could not battle a dozen different opponents all at the same time. He did notice that a fairly sizable percentage of the commentators here agree with him that the issue of our belief in polytheism. As Frankentien posted, "so in the end lds are polythieists... And as such LDS shouldn't be ashamed to admit nor try to skirt around it".

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited January 10, 2012 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

From the FAIR website:

The answer to your question is no, I don't believe Joseph's council of the Gods interpretation.

But do you adhere to the council of the gods in any way ?.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Storm Rider]

I invited my Baptist Minister friend to the board here but after he came and read the posts he stated that he felt that he could not battle a dozen different opponents all at the same time. He did notice that a fairly sizable percentage of the commentators here agree with him that the issue of our belief in polytheism. As Frankentien posted, "so in the end lds are polythieists... And as such LDS shouldn't be ashamed to admit nor try to skirt around it".

In His debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

The problem is the definition for the term. I have always heard that the doctrine of the Trinity is incomprehensible. They are three distinct persons, but one substance or essence. This is a philosophical construct and nothing more. They are polytheists by the strict definition of the term; however, few are honest enough to admit it. Their one God is the same one God that we worship. There is no difference in number.

This whole topic is so very stale to me. I tire of the dishonesty of most Christians; I tire of their ignorance of their own doctrines and teachings; and I tire of their deceiptfulness.

Jedi, I can understand your willingness to talk with this fellow, but as soon as I hear the same tired arguments, my eyes roll back in my head and move on. It is just so much more enjoyable to read the scriptures, reflect on the Atonement than to waste it with those who have ears that do not hear and eyes that do not see. Best of luck to you.

[thesometimesaint]

Tarski:

God. IE; The three distinct individual Gods. Gods in their own right that make up the Godhead.

As a LDS Christian I don't have to make up complicated rationalizations, like The Trinity, for the Godhead.

If you want to analogize the Godhead to me beng a Grandfather. It is fine with me. My Grandkids have two Grandfathers. Both of us are distinct individual Grandfathers in our own right. We are also part of the larger group called Grandfathers.

[Jaybear]

The problem is the definition for the term. I have always heard that the doctrine of the Trinity is incomprehensible. They are three distinct persons, but one substance or essence. This is a philosophical construct and nothing more. They are polytheists by the strict definition of the term; however, few are honest enough to admit it. Their one God is the same one God that we worship. There is no difference in number.

This whole topic is so very stale to me. I tire of the dishonesty of most Christians; I tire of their ignorance of their own doctrines and teachings; and I tire of their deceiptfulness.

Jedi, I can understand your willingness to talk with this fellow, but as soon as I hear the same tired arguments, my eyes roll back in my head and move on. It is just so much more enjoyable to read the scriptures, reflect on the Atonement than to waste it with those who have ears that do not hear and eyes that do not see. Best of luck to you.

As neither a christian nor a mormon, it strikes me that ...

The claim that Christians are polytheistic is based upon an intrepretation of their doctrine which they reject.

The claim that Mormons are not polythiesit is based upon a your rejection of a univsally accepted definition of polytheism.

Its seems rather arrogant of you to purport to control the definition of their doctrine, as well as the meaning words we all use.

Frankly I see this more an attempt by Mormons to run away from the doctrine that God is an exhalted man.

Which I find boggling, as its not only interesting, but its a natural and rational extension of your belief that gender is eternal.

You deny that mormons are polythesitic based on

[ERayR]

Polytheism is not monotheism.

You also believe in polytheism. You just obfuscate your beliefs behind unintelligble creeds.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

To a Muslim Christianity is polytheistic. I'm not too sure that any Christian would agree that they worship many Gods. IE; Hindus.

As a LDS Christian I have no problem with Jesus being a man, and God at the same time.

SEE Theosis.

[Storm Rider]

As neither a christian nor a mormon, it strikes me that ...

The claim that Christians are polytheistic is based upon an intrepretation of their doctrine which they reject.

The claim that Mormons are not polythiesit is based upon a your rejection of a univsally accepted definition of polytheism.

Its seems rather arrogant of you to purport to control the definition of their doctrine, as well as the meaning words we all use.

Frankly I see this more an attempt by Mormons to run away from the doctrine that God is an exhalted man.

Which I find boggling, as its not only interesting, but its a natural and rational extension of your belief that gender is eternal.

You deny that mormons are polythesitic based on

Hello Mr. Jay, good for a few laughs in the new year I see. First, let's talk about definitions. Please inform this great world of Jews and Muslims and the rest of the clear thinking folk how three persons are one God. Then explain how substance makes them one. It seems rather arrogant and ignorant to twist defintions so much just to fit a doctrine that could not understand how Jesus could be divine and still not be a God.

What is also boggling is for you to tell me what my doctrine is. LDS doctrine is NOT that God was once a man like me. In your vaunted knowledge, please explain how Jesus could do nothing except that which HE SAW THE FATHER DO without the Father having gone through a mortal existence just like Jesus did. Do not prevaricate; just answer the question.

Your constant, consistent willingness to assume the worst of LDS as a people and the doctrine of the LDS Church jsut sort of discount all of your opinions, but as I say, you are still good for a few laughs in the New Year. Cheers,

Aside, and what God being a mortal has to do with polytheism is beyond me, but nice escape from having the doctrine of the Trinity tacked to the wall as being just as polytheistic as the Godhead.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Storm Rider

[Jaybear]

Hello Mr. Jay, good for a few laughs in the new year I see. First, let's talk about definitions. Please inform this great world of Jews and Muslims and the rest of the clear thinking folk how three persons are one God. Then explain how substance makes them one. It seems rather arrogant and ignorant to twist defintions so much just to fit a doctrine that could not understand how Jesus could be divine and still not be a God.

Hey, if you want to mock the doctrine of the trinity, be my guest, but please keep me out the discussion. If by contrast, you really want to understand the doctrine, then I suggest that you ask a trinitarian not an atheist.

The bottom line, however, is that regardless of whether you agree with or understand how they get there, trinitarians believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost to be one God.

What is also boggling is for you to tell me what my doctrine is. LDS doctrine is NOT that God was once a man like me.

I did not and would not claim that Mormon doctrine is that God was once a man LIKE YOU. Nice try though.

I define the word "doctrine" as simply that which a church teaches its members to be true. I understand that the LDS Church through its leaders have taught and still teaches that God was once a man.

Would you like me to show you where the LDS Church, through its leaders have taught that God was once a man, or are you simply voicing your disagreement with me over the meaning of the word "doctrine"?

The word "doctine" is not a unique mormon term. Thought it seems that the term "official doctrine" is a unique term that is used primarily by mormon apologists. If it helps, I didn't say that it was "official" mormon doctrine.

Your constant, consistent willingness to assume the worst of LDS as a people and the doctrine of the LDS Church jsut sort of discount all of your opinions, but as I say, you are still good for a few laughs in the New Year. Cheers,

When have I ever assumed the "worst of LDS as a people"? CRF. Just one quote will suffice. If I have done it constantly, that should be easy request.

If you have any integrity, I will expect you to either back up your scurlilous personal insult, or apologize.

Aside, and what God being a mortal has to do with polytheism is beyond me, but nice escape from having the doctrine of the Trinity tacked to the wall as being just as polytheistic as the Godhead.

Its not that complicated. I will let your Prophet explain the connection between exhaltation and polytheism:

"It is thefirst principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did... Here, then, is eternal life: to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you-namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power."

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

I don't have a problem with Atheists normally. But the problem comes in when they try to tell me what I believe.

I don't mock the belief in the Trinity. I just don't believe it. Further if The Trinity was defined a just the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost being one God. No LDS would disagree. Fortunately the ideas behind the Trinity are much more nuanced, and in my opinion self contraditory.

It is true that we believe Jesus was a man, and by extension so was his father. However that is not to say that either were just a man.

We use the term "Official Doctrine" to delineate it from what is known as folk doctrine(Things that might/might not be true, but the Church has no "Official Doctrine" on the subject. IE; IF my very nonLDS Great Grandmother believed the moon was made of green chesse, and told others about her belief. That belief would not mean it was the doctrine of the church she attended.

There is no conection between Polytheism, and Exaultation. No one whom has ever lived on this earth will ever worship us. Further I personally doubt that anyone in the eternities will ever worship us. They just like us will worship God the Father, through Jesus the Christ, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

[Tarski]

Tarski:

God. IE; The three distinct individual Gods. Gods in their own right that make up the Godhead.

As a LDS Christian I don't have to make up complicated rationalizations, like The Trinity, for the Godhead.

If you want to analogize the Godhead to me beng a Grandfather. It is fine with me. My Grandkids have two Grandfathers. Both of us are distinct individual Grandfathers in our own right. We are also part of the larger group called Grandfathers.

No the analogy was to the father of Elohim--your heavenly grandfather? Absolutely nothing to do with him--to the point of having a hard time admitting in public that he even exists?

I wonder what Mitt Romney would say?

[LeSellers]

If by contrast, you really want to understand the doctrine, then I suggest that you ask a trinitarian

I have (and I suspect many others have, as well), but the answers I got were as incomprehensible as what I had derived on my own.

To all of them, as far as I can tell, "It's a mystery", and there's a special place in hekk for people like me who wonder what God was doing before He created the universe.

Lehi

Edited January 10, 2012 by LeSellers

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

I have no problem with "Admitting" God the Father exists. Just as I have no problem with "Admitting" his Son Jesus the Christ exists. JS first vision clarifies that to the shagrin of other Christians.

Mr. Romney can explain his beliefs. I can only answer for what I believe.

[Jaybear]

Jaybear:

I don't have a problem with Atheists normally. But the problem comes in when they try to tell me what I believe.

When did an atheist tell you what you believe.

I have stated that the LDS Church through its leaders have TAUGHT and still teach that God was once a man.

Do you disagree with that statement of fact?

If not, then I don't see that we have a problem.

I don't mock the belief in the Trinity. I just don't believe it. Further if The Trinity was defined a just the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost being one God. No LDS would disagree. Fortunately the ideas behind the Trinity are much more nuanced, and in my opinion self contraditory.

You are welcome to your opinion. But as you are LDS, and LDS are taught that God and Jesus appeared to Smith as seperate personages, there seems to be no reason for a Mormon to struggle or pretend to struggle with trinitarian doctrines. You already have your answer.

It is true that we believe Jesus was a man, and by extension so was his father.

Great. So, if that is what is taught, and that is what you believe, why then does it boggle or offend anyone that I would call it doctrine?

There is no conection between Polytheism, and Exaultation. No one whom has ever lived on this earth will ever worship us. Further I personally doubt that anyone in the eternities will ever worship us. They just like us will worship God the Father, through Jesus the Christ, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Semanitics. Your response assume that the term "polytheism" is defined as one who "worships" more than one God. That is not the common meaning of the word, nor was it how I used the term in my sentence. So you are not disagreeing with me, you are simply redefining the meaning of the words that I used in MY sentence.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Jaybear

[altersteve]

The bottom line, however, is that regardless of whether you agree with or understand how they get there, trinitarians believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost to be one God.

So do we. The only difference is that we know how to use the Bible to show how they are one God.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheism

See 1 Corinthians 8:5

[Jaybear]

Jaybear:

http://www.merriam-w...nary/polytheism

See 1 Corinthians 8:5

Per the definition you provided: "belief in or worship of more than one god ", one is a polytheist if one believes in OR worships more than one God.

It does not say, as you seem to think: (1) Belief in more than one God; or (2) worship of more than one God.

The real definition is a single expansive definition that encompases both belief and worship, the latter example provides two alternative definitions.

[Anakin7]

My baptist Minister friend has e-mailed me and stated that he has been still following the flow of the discussion of this thread as it develops. He states that it is interesting to say the least. He stated that LDS layman offering off-the-cuff comments online aren't the only one's who agree with him about my belief's being polytheistic.

He shared with me that in 1981, the LDS's Brigham Young University published a collection of essays entitled Literature of Belief Sacred Scripture and Religious Experience,edited by Neal E.Lambert. And that this volume contained an essay by Adele B. McCollum entitled : The First Vision : "Re-Visioning Historical Experience" which focused on Joseph Smith's initial claimed vision and LDS theology.

Lambert, the editor, described this essay in the books introduction thusly ; "To appreciate the implications of [smiths] experience with two Gods, she [i.e. McCollum] reaches back to the polytheism of the anchient Greeks and argues that "Mormonisms Polytheistic" theology symbolizes the multiple-faith experiences of Latter-day -Saints who, in their pracrice of religion and in there act of worship, focus there commitment to one God.

In The essay itself,McCollum offers these striking comments: " We can call Joseph Smith's idea the 'plurality of gods,' or whatever, but there may be reasons why it ought to be called polytheism or at least 'the new polytheism. ...So with Joseph Smith. The gods are plural, but there is one for us here and now. Other places, other worlds? Joseph Smith fully expected they would have there own gods... This, I want to suggest, is what we have in Mormonism. While one God is Worshipped there is yet a polytheistic theology..." [emphasis original].

Once again want to state the caring and kindness of this Southern Baptist Pastor.and his concern for us all as he sees us a Polythiest's.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited January 11, 2012 by Anakin7

[cdowis]

Its not that complicated. I will let your Prophet explain the connection between exhaltation and polytheism:

We will let Christ explain it. Please read John 17:19-23. It is very clear and explicit that we are joint-heirs with Christ, one with the Father and Son. As I explained in my previous post, the concept here is patrimony (joint-heir of the same undivided inheritance) and "power of attorney" (given authority to act for and in behalf of an individual).

If I have power of attorney, I am not that individual, but he gives me all authority to act as in his stead. The joint-heir is being a single inheritance in which we all have an equal part. We may have different responsibilities.

It is the doctrine of Christ. We believe in one God, that all authority comes from the Father, as the Father gave Christ His authority.

I realize that you refuse to understand the doctrine as taught by Christ, preferring instead to deliberately misunderstand what we believe and rejoicing in calling us polytheists as though we were the ancient Greek and Roman parthenon of multiple characters with independent action and personal interests apart from the group.

Insults are more more entertaining than understanding.

Edited January 11, 2012 by cdowis

[changed]

... Nor are we henotheists I would also argue.

Why don't you think we are henotheists?

Have you tried telling him we're actually henotheists? Because technically, we are.

I agree...

[cdowis]

Why don't you think we are henotheists?

Why are we not polytheists?

The only answer I can think of is... because we are not. What makes you assert that we are henotheists? I already dealt with that in my earlier post when it was first brought up by the wiki article. Did you respond?

Edited January 11, 2012 by cdowis

[frankenstein]

Cdowis have your written FAIR to tell them how insulting their article is. By definitions posted by FAIR the LDS are polytheists, we LDS. believe in the future existence of Gods but we only worship One God. Jaybear has used the same sedition as FAIR.

And POA does not address the plurality of Gods in the LDS religion.

[Storm Rider]

When did an atheist tell you what you believe. I have stated that the LDS Church through its leaders have TAUGHT and still teach that God was once a man.

Do you disagree with that statement of fact?

Yes, because you twist what is taught, what is doctrine, and what is not nor ever has been. Nice dodge though.

Talking with you seems very unproductive. I don't think it is worth more time. Cheers,