My Mormon Polythieism

[Anakin7]

They are not all individual Gods though.

In a sense they do due to the fact that they reside inside the nature of the one God so since God is also outside of his nature that makes fourinity since God is The GOD Of The Father/Son/Holy Ghost,

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Anakin7]

I think Mormonism is closer to henotheism than it is polytheism.

How about a Anchient Monarch/Eastern/Economic/Social/ Godhaed/Trinity.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited January 13, 2012 by Anakin7

[altersteve]

I am pretty sure that Official published teaching manuals of the LDS Church are to be considered Doctrine.

They are not. They are guides and nothing more. The Church has always been clear that Standard Works and the official proclamations by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve are what constitute as doctrine. Not everything the Church publishes is considered authoritative.

[coolrok7]

(Volgadon)

Then why do you continue to refer to yourself as a monotheist?

The problem with the charge that Trinitarians are polytheists is that both the Jews and Muslims are wrong about Jesus while still being right in the sense of emphasizing monotheism as the Biblical teaching concerning God (the Hebrew Schema—Hear O Israel. . .).

When it comes to the Nature of God, Jesus wasn’t teaching polytheism but emphasizing the monotheism of Judaism:

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:(Mark 12:28-32)

[Storm Rider]

(Volgadon) The problem with the charge that Trinitarians are polytheists is that both the Jews and Muslims are wrong about Jesus while still being right in the sense of emphasizing monotheism as the Biblical teaching concerning God (the Hebrew Schema—Hear O Israel. . .).

When it comes to the Nature of God, Jesus wasn’t teaching polytheism but emphasizing the monotheism of Judaism:

So just claiming they are wrong and you are right is the end of the accusation? Does that work for LDS as well; you make an accusation and we just state it is a wrong? Jesus never claimed to be the Father except in purpose and function. The Trinitarian doctrine is not biblical, but it is a creation of man in order to claim that Jesus was divine and that monotheism was still left intact as a belief.

Jesus did emphasize that we must all worship the Father, but declared that he was the Father's divine Son. If divine, then there are two. Where Protestants and orthodox declare is one in three, LDS declare there is three in one. From a biblical perspective, the three in one Godhead is clearly spelled out.

[coolrok7]

(altersteve)

So just claiming they are wrong and you are right is the end of the accusation? . . .

I was giving a brief response to volgadon. There is of course more to the argument then what I had stated. For example

The issue then between Mormons and Christians when it comes to the Godhead is whether to say there is one God vs. a plurality of Gods which is why the language of the Nicene Creed differs from what Joseph Smith taught with an important distinction, there are no other "true Gods" outside the "God" (elohim) of biblical revelation.

Joseph Smith taught that there are other Gods which are reflected in these following statements:

Following the death of the apostles, revelation ceased. The authority of God was no longer among men. Christianity sickened and died. In time, a new religion grew up in its place—a religion that professed to be Jesus Christ’s Church, but which in reality was a conglomerate of pagan worship and Greek philosophy, “having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.”. . .that eventually led to the complete apostasy of the true church and the eventual creation of an apostate religion that has been responsible for the extermination of the Messiah’s true followers and the persecution of his chosen people, the Jews. . . . (APOSTASY AND RESTORATION pamphlet, p.9)

Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.51)

The Mystery Religions, pagan rivals of Christianity, taught emphatically the doctrine that “men may become Gods.” Hermeticism, which had its rise in Egypt in the second or third centuries B.C., was a prominent religion in the Mediterranean world during the period of the rise of Christianity. Its literature, The Corpus Hermeticum, professes to be revelations to Hermes from his divine father and teacher. Hermes declared: “We must not shrink from saying that a man on earth is a mortal god, and that God in heaven is an immortal man.” This thought very closely resembles the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and of President Lorenzo Snow. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.110)

Edited January 13, 2012 by coolrok7

[Storm Rider]

I was giving a brief response to volgadon. There is of course more to the argument then what I had stated. For example

The issue then between Mormons and Christians when it comes to the Godhead is whether to say there is one God vs. a plurality of Gods which is why the language of the Nicene Creed differs from what Joseph Smith taught with an important distinction, there are no other true Gods. Joseph taught that there are other Gods which are reflected in these following statements:

The problem is that teh Nicene Creed is, by its own admission, incomprehensible. It is not understandable because it attempt to state that three serperate persons are one God while denying their being three seperate personhood.

To take this fallacious position and then state Mormons have a plurality of Gods, which are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is disingenuous at best. They are the same Gods that all Christianity acknowledges. The problem is only semantics and an unwillingess to admit the truth of the Bible.

[coolrok7]

Storm Rider, where does the Nicene Creed state that it is incomprehensible? (you must be thinking of the Athanasian Creed)

The Nicene Creed:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. (Lutheran, Missouri Synod Hymnal)

[frankenstein]

They are not. They are guides and nothing more. The Church has always been clear that Standard Works and the official proclamations by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve are what constitute as doctrine. Not everything the Church publishes is considered authoritative.

CFR

[altersteve]

CFR

From the LDS Newsroom:

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

It says nothing about Church manuals.

http://newsroom.lds.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

As for the thread topic, I'm not a polytheist. I don't care what anyone says, I believe in one God and that's it. I believe in other divine beings "that are called gods," but there is one Supreme Ruler and Creator of the universe who I worship.

End of discussion, for me.

[Eugene]

I had initially intended to stay out of this discussion, but I thought that I'd add a point that might be helpful.

I notice that a lot of Mormons here have responded to Anakin7's query with something along these lines: “Mormons aren’t polytheists! ...but if we are then so are orthodox Christians. Just ask a Muslim/Jew, they'd tell you that Christianity is polytheistic according to their lights.”

This line of response isn't very credible; it’s really just a very slightly more adult version of the playground taunt, “takes one to know one!”

More importantly though, it’s simply factually wrong. Well informed Judaism and Islam do not regard mainstream Christianity as a form of polytheism.

Yona Metzger, the Chief Rabbi of Israel, has written, “today most of the population of the world is monotheistic: Christianity, Islam, Judaism “

Further, Ahmed Mohamed Al-Tayeb, the Grand Sheik (i.e. the President) of Al-Azhar University in Egypt—the supreme religious authority within mainstream (i.e. Sunni) Islam—has said this: “For Muslims, peaceful coexistence is an obligation rather than a matter of choice. Prophet Muhammad was not only encouraged to engage the followers of Islam, Judaism and Christianity - the three monotheistic religions - in meaningful dialogue; he was commanded to do so.”

On another occasion, Al-Tayeb made an even more relevant statement concerning the monotheism implicit within Trinitarian Christianity: “There is also another sura [of the Quran], called Surat Al-Roum, [which refers to] the eastern Christians who [lived in the lands] bordering the Islamic state and were the Muslims' closest neighbors. History tells us that, when the pagan Persians defeated the Christian Byzantines, the pagan Arabs mocked the Muslims for this Byzantine defeat [to the pagans]. When the Muslims complained about this to the Prophet, the revelation came that the Byzantines would overcome the Persians within a few years, and that the believers, Muslim and Christians, would rejoice in Allah's victory. We read the words of Allah: 'The Byzantines have been defeated in the nearby land, but having been defeated, they shall triumph within a few years. Allah's is the decision, both before and after, and then the believers shall rejoice in Allah's victory. He grants victory to whomever He wishes. He is almighty and merciful [Koran 30:2-5].' Allah's promise came true, and the Muslims rejoiced in the victory of the Christian Byzantines. It should be noted that, in these verses, the Koran uses the word 'believers' as an inclusive term for both Muslims and Byzantines. This term [reflects] the unity of religion discussed above, which almost renders the two groups into a single nation, distinct from the nation of idolatry and polytheism.”

Given that the “Byzantines” were thorough-going Trinitarians when Muhammad ostensibly spoke these words, Al-Tayeb couldn’t be clearer: in the view of mainstream Islam’s most influential religious authority, Trinitarianism is very clearly “distinct from... polytheism.”

Add to that the fact that Al-Azhar University maintains the “Permanent Committee of al-Azhar for Dialogue with the Monotheistic Religions”—a group which meets with Christians of both Catholic and Protestant leanings—and I think the falsity of the above mentioned Mormon “takes one to know one” defense is made plain.

LDS theology’s belief in multiple distinct Gods clearly is “polytheism” as defined by actual dictionaries (Random House, Merriam-Webster, Oxford, American Heritage, Collins, etc) because it is explicitly committed to a belief in multiple Gods. Mainstream Christianity is not commited to such a belief and thus is not polytheism and informed Jews and Muslims recognize that.

[volgadon]

More importantly though, it’s simply factually wrong. Well informed Judaism and Islam do not regard mainstream Christianity as a form of polytheism.

I disagree. I grew up in Israel, spent most of my life there. I'm very familiar with both Jewish and Muslim viewpoints.

[volgadon]

Yona Metzger, the Chief Rabbi of Israel, has written, “today most of the population of the world is monotheistic: Christianity, Islam, Judaism “

The same article in which he states that Christians identify themselves with Esau?

[Eugene]

Volgadon, you are, of course, free to disagree with both the chief rabbi of Israel and the president of Al-Azhar, as to what Judaism and Islam *really* believe. And I am likewise free to write your dissent off an ignorant and an instance of ankle-biting.

[Eugene]

Perhaps said a bit more nicely: Volgadon, if I have to choose between what you say Judaism and Isalm *really* believe and what the chief rabbi of Israel and the president of Al-Azher say on the matter, obviously the reasonable choice is to privledge the latter men's comments over your own.

[mfbukowski]

They are not. They are guides and nothing more. The Church has always been clear that Standard Works and the official proclamations by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve are what constitute as doctrine. Not everything the Church publishes is considered authoritative.

I agree, but that seems to be highly misunderstood on this board.

A press release is a press release, and it doesn't even say what most people think it says. The entire problem is that it is self-referential- press release cannot be considered "doctrine" for those who believe only the standard works are doctrine.

If it said so clearly and unambiguously, that might be another story, but unfortunately it is not clear and unambiguous

For those of us who believe that, we would need some kind of Proclamation- which we would acknowledge as "doctrinal" to declare what is doctrinal.

[Eugene]

(How do I edit typos out of my previous posts?)

[mfbukowski]

(How do I edit typos out of my previous posts?)

As a newbie you can't. If you need help tag your post and maybe a moderator can help you

[Eugene]

Well, the typos aren't that serious. I imagine readers will be able to make the mental substitutions. Thanks for the info.

[coolrok7]

Elder Dallin H. Oaks:

In common with the rest of Christianity, we believe in a Godhead that consists of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost,” said Elder Oaks. . . .He said that the original Bible teachings on this subject confirm this teaching, but follow teachings attributable to Greek philosophy that were adopted into their theology in A. D. 325 at the Council of Nicea, which was convened by the Emperor Constantine. “Other councils followed from their decisions and the writings of churchmen and philosophers there came a synthesis of Greek philosophy and Christian doctrine in which orthodox Christians of that day lost the fullness of the truth about the nature of God and the Godhead.” Subsequently, apostate belief in an abstract incomprehensible deity replaced belief in a tangible, personal God, said Elder Oaks. (Church News, APRIL 8, 1995—19, Elder Dallin H. Oaks)

In the BOM, Joseph uses a term from one of the “abominable” Nicene Creed in Mormon 3:21:

And also that ye may believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, which ye shall have among you; and also that the Jews, the covenant people of the Lord, shall have other witness besides him whom they saw and heard, that Jesus, whom they slew, was the very Christ and the [*] very God.

* the term very God was used to defend the deity of Christ in the Nicene Creed (against the Arian heresy). The term very is not in the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament but appears in the King James translation alongside the term Christ:

But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ? (John 7:26 KJV)

Also Father, Son, Holy Spirit is not their name. Yahweh/Jehovah God— YHWH/JHVH is the basis for the name of God, 4 consonants without vowels in the Hebrew. The term God is derived from Elohim and is the generic term for God (translated in the singular with a plural ending) when it is talking about the true God of Israel (which is not the Father’s name as in Mormonism), not the false gods (they didn’t really exist) of the other nations which Israelites were commanded to not go after:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:18-20)

So now you intend to resist the kingdom of the LORD through the sons of David, being a great multitude and having with you the golden calves which Jeroboam made for gods for you. “Have you not driven out the priests of the LORD, the sons of Aaron and the Levites, and made for yourselves priests like the peoples of other lands? Whoever comes to consecrate himself with a young bull and seven rams, even he may become a priest of what are no gods. (2 Chronicles 13:8-9)

However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those, which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? (Galatians 4:8-9)

New American Standard Version- The proper Name of God in the Old Testament: In the Scriptures, the name of God is most significant and understandably so. It is inconceivable to think of spiritual matters without a proper designation for the Supreme Deity. Thus the most common name for Deity is God, a translation of the original Elohim. The normal word for Master is Lord, a rendering of Adonai. There is yet another name which is particularly assigned to God as His special or proper name, that is, the four letters YHWH (Exodus 3:14 and Isaiah 42:eight. This name has not been pronounced by the Jews for the great sacredness of the divine name. Therefore, it was consistently pronounced and translated LORD. The only exception to this translation of YHWH is when it occurs in immediate proximity to the word Lord , that is, Adonai. In that case it is regularly translated GOD in order to avoid confusion. It is known that for many years YHWH has been transliterated as Yahweh, however, no complete certainty attaches to this pronunciation.

I already quoted from the FAIR website (post #69) where Jews and Muslims are appealed to as to whether Christians are considered to be monotheists or polytheists with the latter being the case according to them. I would disagree with both groups on a Biblical basis as they equally oppose Jesus in the New Testament teaching in that Jesus is the one (Son of God in the flesh John 1:1-2, 14) Who prophesied His first coming in Genesis chapter 3:

And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Genesis 3:13-15)

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Colossians 2:8-9)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. . . .And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-2, 14)

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: (Hebrews 1:1-3)

It should be noted the idea of the Greek in the Book of Hebrews quoted above is the idea of a signet ring embedding into wax as in the sealing of a document, which is the Deity of Jesus stamped in the flesh in which He was born to the Virgin Mary at the incarnation which doesn’t make us “Gods” or “God beings” as Mormons believe and other groups including the Worldwide Church of God that still has followers of the teaching of Herbert W. Armstrong (some of the leadership a few years ago walked away from the teaching and are now Trinitarian).

[Eugene]

Hi coolrok7, I went back and checked your post #69. While the FAIR article appeals to some opinion of hypothetical Jews and Muslims in it's assertion that Christians are not monotheists, given the quotations I've provided from authoritative voices from within both Judaism and Islam, this would simply seem to be another place where FAIR is mistaken.

[altersteve]

Also Father, Son, Holy Spirit is not their name. Yahweh/Jehovah God— YHWH/JHVH is the basis for the name of God, 4 consonants without vowels in the Hebrew. The term God is derived from Elohim and is the generic term for God (translated in the singular with a plural ending) when it is talking about the true God of Israel (which is not the Father’s name as in Mormonism), not the false gods (they didn’t really exist) of the other nations which Israelites were commanded to not go after:

Mormonism does not teach that Elohim is the Father's name. The Church does not claim to know what His name is.

[volgadon]

Volgadon, you are, of course, free to disagree with both the chief rabbi of Israel and the president of Al-Azhar, as to what Judaism and Islam *really* believe. And I am likewise free to write your dissent off an ignorant and an instance of ankle-biting.

No one said that you weren't free to be wrong, Eugene.

Metzger might be a chief rabbi of Israel, but at best he represents only the Ashkenazic portion of orthodox Jews in Israel. The Rishonim le-Zion have usually been far less tolerant than their Ashenazi counterparts. Ovadia Yosef, for instance, has been very scathing of Christians, though most of his statements haven't really made a lot of waves in international media.

The chief rabbi, as an official representative of the State of Israel, tends to work towards concilliation and inter-faith dialogue. This doesn't mean that he necessarily reflects the general outlook on these issues inside Israel.

What complicates issues is that there isn't a neat term for polytheism in Judaism. There is avodah zarah (strange, or outside worship) and emunat ha-shituf (belief in associates [with God]).Some have held that belief in the latter doesn't mean avodah zarah, especially if the believer deniesthat he is polytheistic.

Jacob Ariel, chief rabbi of Ramat Gan, OTOH, stated in 2002 that Trinitarianism is avodah zarah.

[volgadon]

The 2nd chief rabbi of Israel, Isaac Herzog, was of the opinion that Christians aren't monotheists due to their belief in the Trinity, but was lenient towards their status, ruling that their opinion that they aren't idolaters is grounds enough to rule halakhically that they don't engage in avodah zarah. This meant that they couldn't be expelled from Israel on grounds of their religion, and was motivated as much by politics as by anything else.

[Pahoran]

Perhaps said a bit more nicely: Volgadon, if I have to choose between what you say Judaism and Isalm *really* believe and what the chief rabbi of Israel and the president of Al-Azher say on the matter, obviously the reasonable choice is to privledge the latter men's comments over your own.

Eugene,

Welcome to the board.

It might be wise for you to stick around long enough to learn what's what and who's who before trying to patronise someone. Volgadon, without any ostentatious name-dropping, has earned himself some credibility around here by demonstrating that he knows what he is talking about; you, not to put too fine a point on it, have not.

No one authority speaks for all of Judaism, just as there is none that speaks for all of Islam. You seem to assume that your authorities should be "privileged," as indeed they must be if they are to be taken to somehow contradict anything that anyone else has said. But if we don't "privilege" them, then all they really show is that there are multiple opinions on the subject, a fact nobody has denied.

And this is not an instance in which FAIR is shown to be wrong. Just so you know.

Regards,

Pahoran

Edited January 14, 2012 by Pahoran