My Mormon Polythieism

[coolrok7]

Yup, that was a typo. Thank you for pointing it out. Some do confuse modalism with Trinitarian doctrine, but then again so do many Trinitarians. Strange how that is; when you don't understand it, it is easy to get confused.

I pointed it out as it directly interferes with the correct understanding of the teaching of biblical doctrine. Those who are confused are responsible for the distortion of the actual teaching not the ones who actually do understand the teaching. So I'm not responsible for what they distort.

Also the Nicene Creed is directly pulled from Biblical verses in which Joseph Smith quoted the line (very God) that is in defense of the Deity of Jesus against the Arian heresy of which I've already pointed out. It's a matter of believing the truth of Biblical teaching.

Edited January 31, 2012 by coolrok7

[altersteve]

The answer is no due to Joseph ignoring the KJV translation (which became the “official” translation of the Mormon Church) in certain areas which refutes his views God (elohim) or LORD (JHVH/YHWH) is always that way when in reference to the God of Biblical Revelation, not the others referred to as little ”g” with an “s” gods who are not true Deity at all:

You're avoiding my question, so I'll ask again. If there are three persons who can be called God, then would it not follow that there are three deities (i.e., "gods")? Hence, a plurality of them? Can the Father be referred to as "a god"? Can the Son? The Holy Ghost? If not, why not?

It is declared in the Psalms:

Indeed, God is from everlasting to everlasting. Latter-day Saints wholeheartedly agree with this. The way we understand "everlasting," though, differs from your understanding. But this does not make it any less biblical. It says "you are God" because it is indeed addressed to one God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This does NOT mean they are one in substance.

Paul stated (Jesus’ birth in the incarnation was not His beginning as He is eternal with no beginning as in from, “everlasting to everlasting”):

Indeed, Jesus Christ is without beginning. He has always been God and He always will be, even if He had an origin.

As to the way the following is interpreted in Mormonism (i.e.- an actual plurality of g(G)ods which doesn’t fit the context of what is being stated by Joseph Smith misrepresenting both the Biblical/Trinitarian view):

I'm sorry, but who are you tell us how we interpret something?

In the [a God] designation noted earlier, I should have used quotation marks (the corrected version in part of the above statement you quoted from me is below). The reason is that Joseph Smith changed the Biblical teaching in his own so-called “Scripture” that he claimed was from the God (elohim) of Biblical Revelation but in reality is not.

This has nothing to do with the topic, but okay.

The Trinitarian view is that the three mentioned in Matthew which are the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the Godhead, which are the one God (by nature spirit), not a plurality of gods. According to Jesus—“The Lord our God is one Lord”, quoting from the Old Testament:

Latter-day Saints wholeheartedly agree that "the Lord our God is one Lord." But there is absolutely NOTHING in scripture that says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one "by nature spirit." That's a completely philosophical statement that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Again, this is part of the “Mormon gospel”, not the Biblical Gospel:

The "Mormon gospel" is declared by Jesus Christ Himself:

3 Nephi 27

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

This is completely consistent with the gospel as it is declared and taught in the Holy Bible. If you don't think it is, please tell us why.

Jesus came in the flesh to suffer death to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (the Gospel)

Which is exactly what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints declares to the entire world.

There is no Biblical reference to heavenly parents procreating spirit children (which includes angels) before they come to an earth to gain physical bodies in order to become Gods the way “Heavenly Father” and mother did:

So? There is no biblical reference to three persons being united in substance or essence as one being, either.

For some contrast in the “a g(G)od” idea, the Jehovah’s Witnesses translation of John 1:1-2 and how they use it in their explanation of Who Jesus is (a created being according to Charles Taze Russell and those who succeeded him in the organization):

Again, so?

Jehovah’s Witnesses are of the Arian heresy (Jesus is a created being who had a beginning, which makes Him, a god not God according to them) and accuse Trinitarians of being modalists as Mormons do, in part a reason for the wording of the Nicene Creed which was defending the Deity of Jesus—very God of very God, begotten not made” (a reference to His becoming flesh in the incarnation). Jesus is God from “everlasting to everlasting”, He didn’t become one:

Again, please stop preaching.

Edited January 31, 2012 by altersteve

[Anakin7]

Which Form/Model of The Trinity are we to adher/believe in ? - Multiple Choice: Western/Eastern/Economic/Essential/Social/Tritheistic/Modalistic.

For me it's an Anchient Monarch Eastern Economic Social Godhead Trinity.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[mfbukowski]

The simple fact is that you cannot make 3 persons one person.

It is total rationalization- you cannot have Christ being human and God being a "spirit" if they both are "God". They clearly are independant beings.

The only way it works is the Mormon way- we have the only possible clear understanding of the Godhead. There are three persons unified in purpose- as a family is. Three persons one family, unified in the purpose of "raising the kids"- us- "bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man". That makes perfect sense.

"Being" "substance" "essence? Three persons one in nature being essence whatever?

That means nothing whatsoever. It is a "virtus dormitiva"

It is evident that the explanation does not explain anything, but only replaces one poorly understood phenomenon with another. The interlocutor is in no way wiser after the explanation than before it.

http://interiordialogue.eu/2010/02/10/virtus-dormitiva/

[saemo]

The fact remains that Mormonsim teaches a plurality of gods. Plural and poly both indicate "more than one". Why not just stand by what is taught and believed?

Anakin7, as a Christian reading here, most threads about the nature of God devolve into attacks against the One True God of Christianity. IMO, this does not favor an argument from Mormons that Mormonism is not polytheistic. Christians believe in One God. There are no others, anywhere, in any way, at any time, place, alternate universes, other worlds, different planes or whatever. We hold no belief in goddesses, whether hidden from worship or not, or even the possibility of such gods/goddesses existing. They don't exist for us. Period. There is but One God.

That LDS posters here don't accept the doctrine of the Trinity doesn't create for us three Gods. There is but One God. This is very foundational to Christian belief. To put an argument of plurality of gods as equal to the Trinity, is a diversion. Moslems or Jews seeing us as polytheistic only underlines their not understanding the God of Christianity, which can be shown scripturally to be One in three Persons. We accept what God has revealed about Himself. First and foremost, God has revealed there is but One God, and no other. We begin there, and see God has revealed Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. To say this is impossible is to deny the very nature of God, as He has revealed Himself.

I haven't seen anything in this thread that would defend Mormonsim as not being polytheistic. Plural=many=polytheistic. It is what it is. Christians do not believe in many Gods, not even their hidden existence. Because there are none.

[Pahoran]

The fact remains that Mormonsim teaches a plurality of gods. Plural and poly both indicate "more than one". Why not just stand by what is taught and believed?

Anakin7, as a Christian reading here, most threads about the nature of God devolve into attacks against the One True God of Christianity. IMO, this does not favor an argument from Mormons that Mormonism is not polytheistic. Christians believe in One God. There are no others, anywhere, in any way, at any time, place, alternate universes, other worlds, different planes or whatever. We hold no belief in goddesses, whether hidden from worship or not, or even the possibility of such gods/goddesses existing. They don't exist for us. Period. There is but One God.

That LDS posters here don't accept the doctrine of the Trinity doesn't create for us three Gods. There is but One God. This is very foundational to Christian belief. To put an argument of plurality of gods as equal to the Trinity, is a diversion. Moslems or Jews seeing us as polytheistic only underlines their not understanding the God of Christianity, which can be shown scripturally to be One in three Persons. We accept what God has revealed about Himself. First and foremost, God has revealed there is but One God, and no other. We begin there, and see God has revealed Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. To say this is impossible is to deny the very nature of God, as He has revealed Himself.

I haven't seen anything in this thread that would defend Mormonsim as not being polytheistic. Plural=many=polytheistic. It is what it is. Christians do not believe in many Gods, not even their hidden existence. Because there are none.

As you know, Saemo, your use of "Christian" is manipulative and question-begging. Latter-day Saint Christians don't agree with you.

Regards,

Pahoran

[saemo]

As you know, Saemo, your use of "Christian" is manipulative and question-begging. Latter-day Saint Christians don't agree with you.

Regards,

Pahoran

Pahoran, by the very fact we don't believe and worship the same God, makes us different religions. I don't believe in or worship the God of Mormonism. This doesn't mean that I don't see in my LDS family and friends a desire to know and follow Jesus Christ. In this, I say Mormons are Christian. Mormonism, however, is not a Christian religion.

[Pahoran]

Pahoran, by the very fact we don't believe and worship the same God, makes us different religions.

You may be right. I worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the one to whom Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane. Whom do you worship?

I don't believe in or worship the God of Mormonism. This doesn't mean that I don't see in my LDS family and friends a desire to know and follow Jesus Christ. In this, I say Mormons are Christian. Mormonism, however, is not a Christian religion.

Your argument is incoherent. If you go to this site, you can read Offenders for a Word, by Dan Peterson and Stephen D. Ricks. This book settles the question for all time: Mormonism is a Christian religion, despite the dogmatic pontifications of the determinedly ignorant.

I invite you to read this book so that you can be informed, for a change.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You're avoiding my question, so I'll ask again. If there are three persons who can be called God, then would it not follow that there are three deities (i.e., "gods")? Hence, a plurality of them? Can the Father be referred to as "a god"? Can the Son? The Holy Ghost? If not, why not?

A better question might be,

Is Christ a God independently by him self? Is God the Father a God independently by him self? Or are they God only if you look at the whole? IOW their divinity is independent and they do not need to rely on each for their divinity.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[saemo]

You may be right. I worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the one to whom Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane. Whom do you worship?

Your argument is incoherent. If you go to this site, you can read Offenders for a Word, by Dan Peterson and Stephen D. Ricks. This book settles the question for all time: Mormonism is a Christian religion, despite the dogmatic pontifications of the determinedly ignorant.

I invite you to read this book so that you can be informed, for a change.

Regards,

Pahoran

Redefining what it means to be a Christan religion doesn't make Mormonism a Christan religion. Your early leaders we're very clear that Mormonism was not a Christian religion. Now, for PR reasons and to attract converts, the story has changed.

Mormonism does not follow the God of the OT. You follow a God that was made by Joseph Smith.

[LeSellers]

Your early leaders we're very clear that Mormonism was not a Christian religion.

CFR

Lehi

[altersteve]

Redefining what it means to be a Christan religion doesn't make Mormonism a Christan religion.

You mean disagreeing with your definition of a Christian religion.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Redefining what it means to be a Christan religion doesn't make Mormonism a Christan religion. Your early leaders we're very clear that Mormonism was not a Christian religion. Now, for PR reasons and to attract converts, the story has changed.

Mormonism does not follow the God of the OT. You follow a God that was made by Joseph Smith.

This is false. I would love for you to pull a quote so we can see what they were really saying. I have a feeling that they were not saying "We are not a Christian region".

Also, we are not redefining what it means to be a Christian rather it is those that wish to exclude us that are redefining it.

A Christian and a Christian religion is simply a person or group that believe that Jesus was the Christ and Messiah and that he died and was resurrected on teh third day for all of man kind and that he is the way the truth and the life.

A Christian can be but is not limited to some one that believes in the Nicean Trinity. No where in the bible are we told that to be a Christian that we need to believe that teh Father, Son, and HG are one substance.

[Pahoran]

Redefining what it means to be a Christan religion doesn't make Mormonism a Christan religion.

Good thing we don't do that, then.

I see you didn't bother to click the link. If you had, you'd know better than to spout such nonsense.

Your early leaders we're very clear that Mormonism was not a Christian religion. Now, for PR reasons and to attract converts, the story has changed.

I regret that I am unable to grant that you have a good faith basis to believe what you assert.

Mormonism does not follow the God of the OT. You follow a God that was made by Joseph Smith.

I regret that I am unable to grant that you have a good faith basis to believe what you assert.

And it occurs to me that if you remembered anything at all from your alleged experience as a member of the Church, you wouldn't have to rely upon notorious anti-Mormon canards disseminated by disreputable anti-Mormon propaganda mills.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Flyonthewall]

Redefining what it means to be a Christan religion doesn't make Mormonism a Christan religion. Your early leaders we're very clear that Mormonism was not a Christian religion. Now, for PR reasons and to attract converts, the story has changed.

Redefining what it means to be Monotheistic doesn't make you Monotheistic either.

There are either 3 Gods, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, or they are not Gods, or a God, at all. The substance/essence/being/etc. that each share is God, and the individuals are merely parts of the whole.

Stating that each are individually God, but there are not 3 Gods but only one, just doesn't make it so.

We say the same thing, there are 3 Gods, but to us there is but one, and you call us polytheistic. But somehow, when you say it, you are monotheistic. <scratches head>

Mormonism does not follow the God of the OT. You follow a God that was made by Joseph Smith.

In the same sense, mainstream Christianity does not follow the God of the OT, but a philisophical creation of men, some of which weren't even "Christian".

I find it very strange that "christianity" cannot understand different groups can have the same person in mind but have different beliefs about them.

[altersteve]

Christianity is not so much a religion as it is a relationship with Jesus Christ. Remember what the Savior Himself said about how eternal life is to know (i.e., have a relationship with) Heavenly Father and His Son. This is what saves us. This is what gives us eternal life. Not having a perfect understanding of who He is. This is why Mormons accept the Catholic Church and all other Christian denominations as being part of His fold. The fact that other Christians do not do this says a lot more about them than it does about us.

[mfbukowski]

Mormonism does not follow the God of the OT. You follow a God that was made by Joseph Smith.

A prophet of the Lord or Constantine, an emperor trying to avoid a war?

I know which one I pick.

[Storm Rider]

Redefining what it means to be a Christan religion doesn't make Mormonism a Christan religion. Your early leaders we're very clear that Mormonism was not a Christian religion. Now, for PR reasons and to attract converts, the story has changed.

Mormonism does not follow the God of the OT. You follow a God that was made by Joseph Smith.

I have studied the OT and NT as a LDS and as a simple student of scripture and as a disciple of Jesus Christ. Because you say I don't worship the God of the Bible does not make it so; it just makes me question you as a follower of my Master.

The doctrine of the Trinity was created for one sole purpose: to define Jesus as divine and yet maintain monotheism. The concept of essence/substance is a philosphical construct and nothing more. We believe in God the Eternal Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. They, by evidence of scripture and reality, are three separate, distinct persons. If it makes orthodoxy more comfotable to create a fable in order to maintain a pseudo-monotheism, I have no problem; however, I will always call it for what it was and is: a doctrine of man.

We pray to the same God that Jesus prayed to, God the Father. He taught all that follow him to pray to the Father. It is interesting that he did not teach us anything about Marian tradition or paying to other beings for assistance. Thos teachings are not Biblical and never have been. Does the fact that you pray to Mary for assistance disqualify you from being a Christain? Of course not, but it does mean you are practicing something that was foreign to Jesus Christ, the apostles, and the early disciples.

You may say what you want, but it is dishonest to say anything other than that LDS follow Jesus' teaching of prayer as he instructed us. We pray to his God and ours.

[Storm Rider]

Redefining what it means to be a Christan religion doesn't make Mormonism a Christan religion. Your early leaders we're very clear that Mormonism was not a Christian religion. Now, for PR reasons and to attract converts, the story has changed.

Mormonism does not follow the God of the OT. You follow a God that was made by Joseph Smith.

I have studied the OT and NT as a LDS and as a simple student of scripture and as a disciple of Jesus Christ. Because you say I don't worship the God of the Bible does not make it so; it just makes me question you as a follower of my Master.

The doctrine of the Trinity was created for one sole purpose: to define Jesus as divine and yet maintain monotheism. The concept of essence/substance is a philosphical construct and nothing more. We believe in God the Eternal Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. They, by evidence of scripture and reality, are three separate, distinct persons. If it makes orthodoxy more comfotable to create a fable in order to maintain a pseudo-monotheism, I have no problem; however, I will always call it for what it was and is: a doctrine of man.

We pray to the same God that Jesus prayed to, God the Father. He taught all that follow him to pray to the Father. It is interesting that he did not teach us anything about Marian tradition or paying to other beings for assistance. Thos teachings are not Biblical and never have been. Does the fact that you pray to Mary for assistance disqualify you from being a Christain? Of course not, but it does mean you are practicing something that was foreign to Jesus Christ, the apostles, and the early disciples.

You may say what you want, but it is dishonest to say anything other than that LDS follow Jesus' teaching of prayer as he instructed us. We pray to his God and ours.

[Ares]

Redefining what it means to be a Christan religion doesn't make Mormonism a Christan religion. Your early leaders we're very clear that Mormonism was not a Christian religion. Now, for PR reasons and to attract converts, the story has changed.

Mormonism does not follow the God of the OT. You follow a God that was made by Joseph Smith.

You were asked for references. Either provide evidence that early LDS leaders claimed they were not Christian or drop this line.

[Anakin7]

You were asked for references. Either provide evidence that early LDS leaders claimed they were not Christian or drop this line.

Thank you !.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Anakin7]

Pahoran, by the very fact we don't believe and worship the same God, makes us different religions. I don't believe in or worship the God of Mormonism. This doesn't mean that I don't see in my LDS family and friends a desire to know and follow Jesus Christ. In this, I say Mormons are Christian. Mormonism, however, is not a Christian religion.

So we are hetrodox ?.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[saemo]

You were asked for references. Either provide evidence that early LDS leaders claimed they were not Christian or drop this line.

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute best."

John Taylor JD 13:225

If he was speaking about Mormons as well as Christians, then I stand corrected.

[saemo]

Good thing we don't do that, then.

I see you didn't bother to click the link. If you had, you'd know better than to spout such nonsense.

I regret that I am unable to grant that you have a good faith basis to believe what you assert.

I regret that I am unable to grant that you have a good faith basis to believe what you assert.

And it occurs to me that if you remembered anything at all from your alleged experience as a member of the Church, you wouldn't have to rely upon notorious anti-Mormon canards disseminated by disreputable anti-Mormon propaganda mills.

Regards,

Pahoran

Pahoran, honestly, anything you recommend I find suspect. When is written by Dan Peterson, I find it even more suspect, because I have taken the time to read what you both write. So yeah, most likely I will use my time to read something else, thanks anyway.

On the other hand I have good friends and family who are LDS, and it is only because of them and their faith that I would even consider LDS individuals as the same as all Christians. Seeking Christ, and to live a Christ-like life.

As to what I remember, I'm sure you don't know but it's OK by me if you keep pretending you do.

Edited February 4, 2012 by saemo

[saemo]

I have studied the OT and NT as a LDS and as a simple student of scripture and as a disciple of Jesus Christ. Because you say I don't worship the God of the Bible does not make it so; it just makes me question you as a follower of my Master.

The doctrine of the Trinity was created for one sole purpose: to define Jesus as divine and yet maintain monotheism. The concept of essence/substance is a philosphical construct and nothing more. We believe in God the Eternal Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. They, by evidence of scripture and reality, are three separate, distinct persons. If it makes orthodoxy more comfotable to create a fable in order to maintain a pseudo-monotheism, I have no problem; however, I will always call it for what it was and is: a doctrine of man.

We pray to the same God that Jesus prayed to, God the Father. He taught all that follow him to pray to the Father. It is interesting that he did not teach us anything about Marian tradition or paying to other beings for assistance. Thos teachings are not Biblical and never have been. Does the fact that you pray to Mary for assistance disqualify you from being a Christain? Of course not, but it does mean you are practicing something that was foreign to Jesus Christ, the apostles, and the early disciples.

You may say what you want, but it is dishonest to say anything other than that LDS follow Jesus' teaching of prayer as he instructed us. We pray to his God and ours.

Well, this is the usual anti-Catholic LDS writing I have come across, today reading more of it than I cared to. Not your fault of course. Mine, for bringing up what Mormons teach and having to read lots of anti-Catholic writings just to show Mormons what Mormons already know well among themselves.

So I'm just going to assume this is what you have been taught by Mormons, and pray that someday you have a desire to seek the truth.

Edited February 4, 2012 by saemo