Feelings

[Storm Rider]

Feelings are not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the feeling. The Spirit may communicate through feelings just as the two disciples felt on the road to Emmaus we find in Luke 24:32. Their hearts burned within them as he opened the scriptures to them. They recognized the truth of the scriptures and they understood them. This principle of recognizing truth through the guidance of the Spirit is of utmost importance to learn.

Again, it is not simply feeling something good, but it is recognizing the Spirit's guidance in learning truth. There is no Spirit in intoxicating drugs or anything similar. Nor do drugs ever feel like the Spirit. I have been in the care of a doctors when morphine was given and speaking from experience, it is a great drug to relieve pain, but it is not the Spirit.

Learning truths is always accompanied by the Spirit and the feeling is always similar. I recognize the guidance of the Spirit at those times. I also believe the Spirit is present when we learn and exhibit the qualities of the 13th article of faith or anything similar to them. The Spirit accompanies truth always. We must learn to recognize that Spirit and to recognize when the Spirit is speaking to us; to differentiate from the Spirit and all other influences. That is a lifelong process and does not occur in a day, week, month, or year.

[mfbukowski]

I have adult ADD big time. The doc put me on Ritalin or one of those and it helped a lot except for one thing, and that was that I could not feel the Spirit at all. Nada. Nothing. It was like wearing a tinfoil hat.

So I quit and I am just my weird old self again.

I felt that I should say that, not sure why.

[Storm Rider]

I have adult ADD big time. The doc put me on Ritalin or one of those and it helped a lot except for one thing, and that was that I could not feel the Spirit at all. Nada. Nothing. It was like wearing a tinfoil hat.

So I quit and I am just my weird old self again.

I felt that I should say that, not sure why.

That does not surprise me. Chemicals can affect our interaction with the Spirit and many have felt this type of "wall" when under the influence of chemicals. I think depression can do the same thing and many will state (and I agree) that depression is a chemical imbalance. In these situations I do not believe that the Spirit is closed off, but our ability to hear/feel is impacted. More can be said, but it may take this thread in a very different direction.

[Robert F. Smith]

The Church has just put out a YouTube video about this subject which might interest you:

http://www.youtube.c...95254BDC885BDB5

Very nice. Thank you.

[inquiringmind]

Feelings are not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the feeling. The Spirit may communicate through feelings just as the two disciples felt on the road to Emmaus we find in Luke 24:32. Their hearts burned within them as he opened the scriptures to them. They recognized the truth of the scriptures and they understood them. This principle of recognizing truth through the guidance of the Spirit is of utmost importance to learn.

Again, it is not simply feeling something good, but it is recognizing the Spirit's guidance in learning truth. There is no Spirit in intoxicating drugs or anything similar. Nor do drugs ever feel like the Spirit. I have been in the care of a doctors when morphine was given and speaking from experience, it is a great drug to relieve pain, but it is not the Spirit.

Learning truths is always accompanied by the Spirit and the feeling is always similar. I recognize the guidance of the Spirit at those times. I also believe the Spirit is present when we learn and exhibit the qualities of the 13th article of faith or anything similar to them. The Spirit accompanies truth always. We must learn to recognize that Spirit and to recognize when the Spirit is speaking to us; to differentiate from the Spirit and all other influences. That is a lifelong process and does not occur in a day, week, month, or year.

Thank you.

I'm not a John Lennon fan, but I was within blocks of the crime scene the night he was killed.

My dad and I heard the police sirens in the distance before the news was announced on the radio, and I remember a song he wrote (that I've always hated) that they played on the radio for weeks after that.

I'm sure you'd agree that when you really think about what the words to that song mean (no God, no heaven, nothing but today to live for), there's nothing to really feel good about.

So how would you explain it if some of the most hated lyrics recently came to mind, and you found yourself feeling good (before you thought about what the words really meant, and started asking yourself where the feeling came from)?

Was that God telling you not to worry about anything, just live for today, because He's not really there?

That doesn't make you feel good at all once you stop to really think about it, and it doesn't make any sense either, so you know that couldn't be true.

But you keep asking yourself why words you don't like came to mind, why you felt good when you should have felt bad, where the feeling came from, and what (if anything) it meant.

Imagine that, imagine that you weren't doing any drugs at the time (unless Nicoline counts, and you hadn't had a cigarette for hours ), and please tell me how you'd explain it (to yourself.)

Edited January 8, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Storm Rider]

Thank you.

I'm not a John Lennon fan, but I was within blocks of the crime scene the night he was killed.

My dad and I heard the police sirens in the distance before the news was announced on the radio, and I remember a song he wrote (that I've always hated) that they played on the radio for weeks after that.

I'm sure you'd agree that when you really think about what the words to that song mean (no God, no heaven, nothing but today to live for), there's nothing to really feel good about.

So how would you explain it if some of the most hated lyrics recently came to mind, and you found yourself feeling good (before you thought about what the words really meant, and started asking yourself where the feeling came from)?

Was that God telling you not to worry about anything, just live for today, because He's not really there?

That doesn't make you feel good at all once you stop to really think about it, and it doesn't make any sense either, so you know that couldn't be true.

But you keep asking yourself why words you don't like came to mind, why you felt good when you should have felt bad, where the feeling came from, and what (if anything) it meant.

Imagine that, imagine that you weren't doing any drugs at the time (unless Nicoline counts, and you hadn't had a cigarette for hours ), and please tell me how you'd explain it (to yourself.)

I think you are still equating good feelings with the Spirit. They are NOT equivalent. I can listen to good music and be very moved by it emotionally, but that does not mean it is the Spirit talking to me. It means that I was moved emotionally by the music and nothing more. Similarly, I can listen to hymns, listen to music, read a poem, listen to a talk and be moved by the Spirit. I have never been moved by the Spirit to a false thing; I have no recollection of such a situation.

I remember the song you are talking about. I enjoy the meolody of the song, but I have never liked the words. They have always been an anthem to nihilism for me and nothing more. It is a little bit like being forced to eat strawberries in an outhouse. Yes, I like strawberries, but the surroundings make it unbearable to eat them.

Can we not understand something and still attach meaning to it? Of course, and I suspect that is what you did and were able to do until you understood the words and then the song lost most of its value. There are a lot of songs that have alledged to have hidden meanings and I still enjoy them because I have never understood the hidden meaning; they don't mean that to me and I can still appreciate them. However, appreicating good music is not feeling the Spirit.

Over time you will learn to differentiate between the Spirit and good feelings; the one does not equal the other. Does that make sense to you?

[inquiringmind]

Over time you will learn to differentiate between the Spirit and good feelings; the one does not equal the other. Does that make sense to you?

I think so.

Thank you.

[TAO]

Oh! I see where your coming from (or at least I think I do...). In any case, let me tell you... the lyrics and the music behind a song are sort of seperate... there are some songs which have excellent music... but their lyrics are everything I stand against. I like listening to the Electronic, Ambience, Trance, and Techno genre's, and while the music is good, the words are sometimes... pretty bad. In addition, sometimes the music isn't so good... it encourages quick radical decision making... which can be good at times... but at certain times, it tries to override the spirit. So you have to figure out what to do about that and such.

With the song you are thinking about, I fell the same way. But I know it is because I like the lyrics, and the small part of the song 'people love each other all throughoug the world' or something like that. The other verses I can feel are a bit off... they are wrong... and I'm uncomfortable around them. That doesn't mean most of the music isn't great, and it doesn't take away the value of loving people throughout the world... it is just, some of the lyrics are not of the spirit... and others are greatly. So I sort of remember that. I tend to avoid the song, but I when I hear it, I focus on the good verses, and not the ones that I know are wrong =).

Hope this helps you to some degree. =)

Best of Wishes,

-TAO

[CV75]

I don’t think it matters where our thoughts and feelings come from as much as what we are doing and where we are going with them. I believe emotions arise from our own systems based on a) the element God has organized and given us to work with in the form of a body with related chemistries; b) any pre-existing spiritual talents or deficits we bring into this world; c) our stewardship of the body and the spirit; and d) our resultant sensitivity to “enticements” of various kinds (2 Nephi 9:39; Mosiah 3:19).

Every kind of thought or feeling we might have, and no matter how we may have experienced them pre-mortally, are part of our probationary experience and are gifts in that regard and we are responsible for what we do with them. Carnal, sensual and devilish thoughts and feelings, most often attributable (but not always since they can be induced through other mechanisms) to the enticing of the devil, can prompt us to sin or to repent. Altruistic, virtuous and godly thoughts and feelings, most often attributable to the enticing of the Spirit, can prompt us to act righteously, to repent, or to rebel.

But the actual thoughts and feelings do not come from the devil or from God, they come from us. I do not believe that God (or the devil) implants thoughts and feelings in a way that overrides our agency. I do believe that when God communicates with us, we respond with associated thoughts and feelings consistent with our makeup as described above—just as we respond to anyone else! While the revelation is from Him, the response is from us.

[mfbukowski]

When I have felt the spirit it hasn't been a random thing out of the blue where I feel happy about something and then call it the "spirit". It has always been in a specific context where I have asked a question of God, sought guidance, thanked Him for something etc. Or it also "verifies" what you hear someone else say- perhaps someone giving a talk and giving you an answer to a problem you have sought and prayed about, then suddenly there is a talk in a meeting giving you the answer and you feel the spirit confirming it for you.

It is not a feeling caused by music out of the blue and then you try to figure out what the "spirit" was saying. When the spirit speaks you know what it is saying. It is a clear feeling of a message directly for you about something perhaps you have been thinking about previously, or confirming the truth of what is being said now, even though you may not have thought about it. It is connected to a specific thought- not a random feeling just coming out of the blue.

At least that is how it works for me.

And incidentally nicotine is a much more powerful drug than people think. I had a devil of a time with it.

[CV75]

When I have felt the spirit it hasn't been a random thing out of the blue where I feel happy about something and then call it the "spirit". It has always been in a specific context where I have asked a question of God, sought guidance, thanked Him for something etc. Or it also "verifies" what you hear someone else say- perhaps someone giving a talk and giving you an answer to a problem you have sought and prayed about, then suddenly there is a talk in a meeting giving you the answer and you feel the spirit confirming it for you.

It is not a feeling caused by music out of the blue and then you try to figure out what the "spirit" was saying. When the spirit speaks you know what it is saying. It is a clear feeling of a message directly for you about something perhaps you have been thinking about previously, or confirming the truth of what is being said now, even though you may not have thought about it. It is connected to a specific thought- not a random feeling just coming out of the blue.

At least that is how it works for me.

And incidentally nicotine is a much more powerful drug than people think. I had a devil of a time with it.

I believe that sometimes God does communicate with us “out of the blue,” such as when we are being warned of an impending danger (though as you point out, perhaps this is only because we have a prayer in our heart, or are otherwise prepared to receive such communication). But it is certainly distinct from anything else, though it may be subtle or gradual as indicated in 3 Nephi 11:3 and in Elder Bednar ‘s talk on the subject of revelation (http://lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/the-spirit-of-revelation?lang=eng).

This is one reason I vacillate between using the terms “recognize the Spirit” and “feel the Spirit,” preferring “recognize” (but preferring not to nit-pick more than that).

I think individuals may tend to process the Spirit through thoughts (“recognize”) more than emotion or physical response (“feel”) or vice-versa, depending on how their body is made. Filtering out any other influences over the neurochemistry such as music, drugs, stressors, etc., I believe the Spirit’s interaction with a person's spirit results in a distinctive effect upon his body that he experiences in terms of distinctive thoughts and/or feelings, depending on the situation. The distinctiveness of the thought or feeling allows him to attribute the communication to God, but the thoughts and feelings themselves are only the temporal manifestation of his spirit’s reception of, aligment with, or "cleaving unto" it.

I am speaking from the only perspective I know at this time, because I am a soul behind the veil, so I can’t say what thoughts and feelings are like without my body. I’ll have to wait for that (the longer, the better!).

[Darth_Bill]

I have adult ADD big time. The doc put me on Ritalin or one of those and it helped a lot except for one thing, and that was that I could not feel the Spirit at all. Nada. Nothing. It was like wearing a tinfoil hat.

So I quit and I am just my weird old self again.

I felt that I should say that, not sure why.

I'm not sure how to take this. If the claim is that it isn't chemical, yet chemicals block it......Can't the spirit blast right through that? I'm not sure if this is helping the arguement that it isn't just the mind talking to itself.

[CV75]

I'm not sure how to take this. If the claim is that it isn't chemical, yet chemicals block it......Can't the spirit blast right through that? I'm not sure if this is helping the arguement that it isn't just the mind talking to itself.

I think the claim is that is isn't chemical until it becomes chemical (based on the principle that all things are spiritual before hey become temporal).

The mind does talk to itself, but this doesn’t mean the communiqué isn’t from God. The incipient spiritual message goes through various stages before it becomes a conscious, identifiable thought or feeling, and in this way the mind talks to itself. The most fundamental stages, those we can’t observe, are where the Holy Spirit and the human spirit interact. When the spirit has a properly functioning body, the spiritual interaction becomes evident in physical and psychic ways, some of which we can measure.

Many physical/psychic impediments including brain chemistry can interfere with the translation of divine communication into mortal awareness and response. I suppose the Spirit can “blast through” some of this, but consistent with life being a challenge, it is more likely the body and mind adjust to process and recognize spiritual communication differently, or the person can remove the impediment.

This is coming from one who believes the mortal soul is a spirit “separably” connected with element to form a person. The spirit affects the body and the body affects the spirit, each for better or worse—the person affects the person in different ways. If the mind, like the soul, has a spiritual as well as a physical component, then it can also talk to itself in this manner, but in the case of revelation, what it talks about first came from God.

[Maidservant]

I felt like adding also that the way I recognize the spirit the most is when it is gone. The way I feel the spirit the best is . . . nothing . . . in a good way. Just that life is going along, not problem-free necessarily, but I feel grateful, comforted. But when I for example feel some more darkness, sometimes I realize that there is some commandment I need to repent on (like turning to my scriptures more, or attending the temple, or repairing a relationship, etc).

I'm not sure how to take this. If the claim is that it isn't chemical, yet chemicals block it......Can't the spirit blast right through that? I'm not sure if this is helping the arguement that it isn't just the mind talking to itself.

You know . . . I have pondered the body-mind-spirit-whatever you want to label what we can't quite figured out relationship quite a bit and in terms of what it "proves" about God or no. But I do find it interesting that the Church has always respected a strong "body" element. We are taught the word of wisdom and moral cleanliness, precisely because, yes, these things DO affect our ability to access or recognize the spirit.

My understanding is that not only is the physical body a portion of our relationship to the spirit and to God . . . it is the MAIN vessel or means of receiving the spirit. Our BODY needs to receive the Holy Ghost. Our spirit was already celestial before we came here. We are here to sanctify our BODIES, which is the reception of, and cleansing by the Holy Ghost, of our BODIES.

[mfbukowski]

I'm not sure how to take this. If the claim is that it isn't chemical, yet chemicals block it......Can't the spirit blast right through that? I'm not sure if this is helping the arguement that it isn't just the mind talking to itself.

I never said it wasn't "chemical". That is missing the point. LDS are materialists in my view- it's just that we don't yet understand the science of the spirit.

The "spirit", as "matter more refined" could cause a chemical change helping to produce hormonal and other changes, etc. in ways yet undiscovered, and on the other side of the coin, chemical changes could block what "the spirit" is able to do physically to the brain.

I have never meant to say there is no physical element to experience- that is obvious in using alcohol and other drugs. What I DO say, and what Nagel and Kirkegarrd and Husserl, Merleau-Ponty, Rorty and others say is that physical explanations cannot exhaust or fully explain all that can be said about experience

There is information in statements about experience which is not logically equivalent to statements about chemical interactions with brain cells.

The statement "That is a beautiful sunset" is not logically equivalent to something like "Chemical x is stimulating visual center y and interacting with the braincells at location z in Bukowski's brain".

The two statements are made from different points of view; one is subjective, the other is objective.

Edited January 9, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

I think the claim is that is isn't chemical until it becomes chemical (based on the principle that all things are spiritual before hey become temporal).

The mind does talk to itself, but this doesn’t mean the communiqué isn’t from God. The incipient spiritual message goes through various stages before it becomes a conscious, identifiable thought or feeling, and in this way the mind talks to itself. The most fundamental stages, those we can’t observe, are where the Holy Spirit and the human spirit interact. When the spirit has a properly functioning body, the spiritual interaction becomes evident in physical and psychic ways, some of which we can measure.

Many physical/psychic impediments including brain chemistry can interfere with the translation of divine communication into mortal awareness and response. I suppose the Spirit can “blast through” some of this, but consistent with life being a challenge, it is more likely the body and mind adjust to process and recognize spiritual communication differently, or the person can remove the impediment.

This is coming from one who believes the mortal soul is a spirit “separably” connected with element to form a person. The spirit affects the body and the body affects the spirit, each for better or worse—the person affects the person in different ways. If the mind, like the soul, has a spiritual as well as a physical component, then it can also talk to itself in this manner, but in the case of revelation, what it talks about first came from God.

I see this as "saying the same thing" I just said above- using a spiritual vocabulary whereas mine was an attempt at a scientific/ philosophical vocabulary.

Just sayin'

[mfbukowski]

I believe that sometimes God does communicate with us “out of the blue,” such as when we are being warned of an impending danger (though as you point out, perhaps this is only because we have a prayer in our heart, or are otherwise prepared to receive such communication).

Yes, I forgot about this- I have often spoken about a bike-ride I was on which was interrupted by the Spirit telling me to check up on an elderly lady- turns out she had just fallen and was in need of medical help, which we were able to arrange by phone; I got back on my bike and finished the ride.

Such things happen quite often.

[CV75]

I see this as "saying the same thing" I just said above- using a spiritual vocabulary whereas mine was an attempt at a scientific/ philosophical vocabulary.

Just sayin'

Cool! The truth is spoken in many languages!

[CV75]

What I DO say, and what Nagel and Kirkegarrd and Husserl, Merleau-Ponty, Rorty and others say is that physical explanations cannot exhaust or fully explain all that can be said about experience

This is why the great thinkers put their trust in thinkers greater than they.

[mfbukowski]

Cool! The truth is spoken in many languages!

When I am waxing philosophical I might say, "there are many linguistic contexts, or language games, which can produce justified beliefs"

But without the philosophical earwax, yours sounds great.

[mfbukowski]

This is why the great thinkers put their trust in thinkers greater than they.

That's what makes them great! They know what to rip-off and what not to!

[inquiringmind]

I haven't done much reading or studying today, as I spent most of the day in the E.R.

And I've been thinking about the question I raised here.

It's my understanding that if I die where I'm at right now, I'm pretty much guaranteed at least a telestial heaven.

And I think Joseph once said that if we could see what that was like, we'd want to kill ourselves to get there.

So if every day of my life here is painful (or just numb), and I get a warm peaceful feeling when I think of killing myself, is that feeling coming from God?

And btw: I don't really think there's anyone here (anymore) who'd really be all that worse off without me--so if all good feelings come from God, it does (sometimes) seem possible that He'd be telling me it's ok.

Also, this isn't the kind of question I could ask anyone at a suicide prevention hotline (if I wanted an answer.)

I know.

I've taken the courses, I've done the bio/social psyc interviews, and I one considered doing an internship at a suicide prevention hotline.

The people working them may be trained to listen for such questions.

They may be trained to react to them.

But they're not trained to answer them.

Edited February 3, 2012 by inquiringmind

[altersteve]

So if every day of my life here is painful (or just numb), and I get a warm peaceful feeling when I think of killing myself, is that feeling coming from God?

Once again, a "peaceful feeling" is not necessarily from God. If it is, you'll know it. If you have to ask, then it's probably not.

[Calm]

im, I understand chronic pain and health issues, going through them myself as well as dealing with many family members experiencing the same.

Even seeing and feeling all this pain, I still believe life is a wonderful gift from God and it is ingratitude to not try and take advantage of it fully no matter what....even if sometimes I tell the Lord anytime it's convenient for him, I'm okay with it.

However, this is not the best place to talk about whether one would be better off dead or alive. Better with someone face to face or at least in real time (say by phone), perhaps even someone who professionally helps people learn how to cope.

[inquiringmind]

im, I understand chronic pain and health issues, going through them myself as well as dealing with many family members experiencing the same.

Even seeing and feeling all this pain, I still believe life is a wonderful gift from God and it is ingratitude to not try and take advantage of it fully no matter what....even if sometimes I tell the Lord anytime it's convenient for him, I'm okay with it.

However, this is not the best place to talk about whether one would be better off dead or alive. Better with someone face to face or at least in real time (say by phone), perhaps even someone who professionally helps people learn how to cope.

As I said

this isn't the kind of question I could ask anyone at a suicide prevention hotline (if I wanted an answer.)

I know.

I've taken the courses, I've done the bio/social psyc interviews, and I one considered doing an internship at a suicide prevention hotline.

The people working them may be trained to listen for such questions.

They may be trained to react to them.

But they're not trained to answer them.

Edited by inquiringmind, A minute ago.