Feelings

[inquiringmind]

One of the missionaries was recently trying to explain the difference between feeling The Spirit, and our emotions.

He said that there is a difference, but I'm not sure I understand it, and I would like to know some of your thoughts.

First of all, are good feelings (warm, benevolent, peaceful feelings) always of God?

Some people say they get such feelings from Eastern meditation techniques.

Part of the hippie culture included an appreciation for "alternative religions", especially those of the Far East. Attending DePaul University, I took a required Comparative Religions course, and got turned on to books like "Siddhartha" by Herman Hesse...I bought a book on yoga that included relaxation and meditation instructions. I began to sit on a cushion, and breathe in "OM" and breathe out "Shanti". This brought me peace, a good antidote to my past, the present turbulent era, and the conflicts at home.

One night, I was meditating in my room, and a warm feeling of peace and love grew inside and enveloped me.

http://dandelnegro.c...iritualbio.html

Is this necessarily "of God"?

I once visited a Palm Reader, who told me to "stay what you are" (i.e. Catholic.)

She told me to do what she called a cleansing ritual, and that night I took a warm bath, and I asked God to clean me.

I said "make me clean," just like she told me to, and the next morning I woke up with a very warm, fuzzy feeling for my father (who also tells me to stay Catholic.)

Was that warm, fuzzy feeling necessarily "of God"?

Are all such feelings "of God"?

Please reply.

Edited January 6, 2012 by inquiringmind

[TAO]

Inquringmind, how are you doing? In any case... I would say this. Yes, the feelings of the spirit are warm and fuzzy and brilliant happy. Yet they can also be burning like a firm truth. They also can be true in a peaceful way. But... I would hesitate to try and describe them as 'one thing'. They can be many things. One thing they are not is contentious feelings. We will know sometimes, that we will have to say no to people. But we should be doing so for the right reason. And we will know them, ultimately, by personal experiences. God can show us all, what the spirit is, if we are open to him. But we cannot expect to convey it through simple language - we must experience it for ourself to truly know it, to truly know what the spirit is like, being inside us =). That is the pesronality of testimony =D.

Best of WIshes,

-TAO

Edited January 6, 2012 by TAO

[inquiringmind]

Thank you TAO.

I have no doubt that a warm, peaceful feeling could come from The Holy Spirit, but I'm wondering whether all such feelings come from Him.

When I worked with Muslims, they noticed that I didn't eat pork, and they liked and respected that (especially when they learned that even though I identified myself as a Christian, I believed that God had told the Jews not to eat pork because it probably wasn't that good for you.)

I remember one who tried to convert me (more than once.)

He talked about how beautiful the Koran was (especially when read in Arabic), and how reading it made him feel.

I only vaguely remember this conversation (as it was years ago), but I'm sure he would have said it gave him a warm, peaceful feeling (and I do remember him saying that it could make him cry.)

If he wasn't lying--I mean, if he really had these warm feelings when reading passages from the Koran--were these feelings necessarily from God?

And what about my visit to the Palm Reader, the cleansing ritual, and how I felt afterward?

Was that necessarily from God?

Edited January 6, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Kevin Christensen]

Here is the appendix from my paper on "A Model of Mormon Spiritual Experience" which provides a bit more context for the issue of how the spirit operates.

Here are scriptures describing answer to prayer through the Spirit. Contexts usually refer to study, pondering, inquiry, musing, fasting, and reflecting on the subject of the prayer before and during the experience described or promised. You should study the scriptures in context. These verses should spur introspection in assessing personal experience, and in considering the claims of others. (Even skeptics should define what they do not believe in.) They are also a strong test for the claims of Joseph Smith. Consider them in light of my model and note how well they all hang together. The Spirit is a promised witness to the obedient (Acts 5:32; John 7:17, 8:31–32).

Answer to Prayer Emphasizing Thinking

1. Guides to truth (that is, to what is real; Jacob 4:13; John 16:13; Ephesians 5:9–10).

2. Brings Christ’s words to remembrance (John 14:26).

3. Eyes of understanding opened, that ye may know (Ephesians 1:16–19). “We began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention . . . revealed to us in a manner we never could attain to previously, nor ever before thought of.” (Joseph Smith–History 1:74)

4. “It is calm and serene; . . . a person may profit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation: for instance when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas.”[1]

5. Expands your mind (Alma 32:34).

6. Is this not real? What is true is discernible. “Whatsoever makes manifest is light”—truth is things as they really are (Alma 32:35; Jacob 4:13; Ephesians 5:13; D&C 52:14–19) “A pattern in all things” (D&C 52:14).

7. Persuades to believe in Christ (Moroni 7:17).

8. Judge righteously (D&C 11:12; Matthew 7; Luke 11:35).

9. Enlightens your mind (D&C 11:13–14; Alma 32:34).

10. You will know and bear record (Ether 4:11–15).

11. “Still small voice,” “which whispereth through and pierceth all things often making my bones to quake,” “voice in mind,” “as of one crying in the wilderness . . . because you cannot see him” (Enos 1:10; 1 Kings 16:13; Isaiah 30:21; D&C 85:6; 88:66; see also 3 Nephi 11:37).

12. I know that ye believe them . . . by the manifestation of the spirit, great is my joy. He that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together (Alma 7:17; D&C 50:10–25). It can be a shared experience that is witnessed and not self-induced.

13. Experience a change of perception. “God has created man with a mind capable of instruction, and a faculty which may be enlarged in proportion to the heed and diligence given to the light communicated from heaven to the intellect; and that the nearer a man approaches perfection, the clearer are his views, and the greater his enjoyments, till he has overcome the evils of his life and lost every desire for sin; and . . . arrives at that point of faith where he is wrapped in the power and glory of his Maker and is caught up to dwell with Him. . . . This is a station to which no man ever arrived in a moment: he must have been instructed . . . by proper degrees, until his mind is capable in some measure of comprehending the propriety, justice, equality, and consistency of the same.”[2]

Answer to Prayer Emphasizing Feeling

1. Heart burns within (Luke 24:32; Jeremiah 20:9;Psalms 39:2–3, 12; D&C 9).

2. Enlarges soul (Alma 32:27: Moroni 10:3–6); cf. Enos for enlargement of soul, first praying for self, then his people, then his enemies (Enos 1–17).

3. Word begins to be delicious to you (Alma 32:27); also tree of life (1 Nephi 8:10–16).

4. Word grows in you (Alma 32:28–43) “As that subject seems to occupy my mind, and press itself upon my feelings the strongest” (D&C 128:1). “Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected upon it again and again” (Joseph Smith–History 1:12).

5. Invites to do good (Moroni 7:13); fruit of spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance (Galatians 5:22–25).

6. Invites to love God and to serve him (Moroni 7:13–19).

7. Peace to mind concerning the matter (D&C 6:14–15, 22–23).

8. Feel that it is right; stupor of thought if wrong (D&C 9:7–9).

9. Leads you to walk humbly (D&C 11:12).

10. Peace and power of spirit flow into you (D&C 111:.

11. Spirit teaches you that ye must pray (2 Nephi 32:8–9).

12. Spirit fills with joy (D&C 11:13–14; Mosiah 4:3)

13. Peace of conscience (Mosiah 4:3).

14. Consolation, comfort, peace (Helaman 3:5; John 14:26–27)

15. Guilty take truth hard, for it cuts to the center (Acts 2:37; 1 Nephi 16:2; 2 Nephi 32:2). Some harden hearts against it; others repent (see Alma 14, 15, and 36).

16. Experience a change of heart (Alma 5:26). “The spirit of the Lord . . . will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife and all evil from their hearts, . . . and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness, and build up the kingdom of God.”[3] “Law . . . written in hearts” (Jeremiah 31:33). “New heart, new spirit within you” (Ezekiel 11:19).

Other Ways Prayers Are Answered.

1. You receive help that you’ve prayed for (James 5:16–18). “The fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much” (James 5:16).

2. Numinous Experience: awe and reverence, mystery and wonder, fascination and dread, a sense of otherness, confrontation and encounter; becoming aware of dependence, finitude, limitation, and contingency.[4]

3. Mystical Experience; sense of the unity of all things, joy, harmony, serenity, peace, loss of ego. “Eight central qualities of the mystical or transcendent experience” are:[5]

§ The “ego quality.” During the experience, the person may lose the sense of self, and feel absorbed in to something greater. (cf. He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth; D&C 88:6; And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Enoch, and told Enoch all the doings of the children of men; wherefore Enoch knew, and looked upon their wickedness, and their misery, and wept and stretched forth his arms, and his heart swelled wide as eternity; and his bowels yearned; and all eternity shook. Moses 7:41);

§ The “unifying quality.” During the experience, the person may feel that “everything is one.” (cf. He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. D&C 88:41),

§ The “inner and subjective quality.” The person may feel that things possess consciousness which we don’t usually regard as being conscious, like trees, or the earth itself. (cf. And it came to pass that Enoch looked upon the earth; and he heard a voice from the bowels thereof, saying: Wo, wo is me, the mother of men; I am pained, I am weary, because of the wickedness of my children. When shall I rest, and be cleansed from the filthiness which is gone forth out of me? When will my Creator sanctify me, that I may rest, and righteousness for a season abide upon my face? Moses 7:48)

§ The “temporal/spatial quality.” The person may experience time and space differently, and may even feel that the experience occurs outside the normal boundaries of space and time. (cf. And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning it by the spirit of God. And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof, and there was not a soul which he beheld not; and he discerned them by the Spirit of God; and their numbers were great, even numberless as the sand upon the sea shore. And he beheld many lands; and each land was called earth, and there were inhabitants on the face thereof. Moses 1:27–29. Compare also Black Elk’s vision.);

§ The “noetic quality.” The person may feel that the experience is the source of true knowledge. (cf. And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand. O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; ...Alma 32:34-35 )

§ The “ineffable quality.” The experience may be impossible to express in normal language. (cf. And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were caught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things. And it was forbidden them that they should utter; neither was it given unto them power that they could utter the things which they saw and heard; And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God. 3 Nephi 28:13-15. Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him; D&C 76:116-117)

§ The “positive emotion quality.” (cf. He hath filled me with his love, even unto the consuming of my flesh. 2 Nephi 4:21. And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain! Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy. Alma 36:20-21).

§ The “sacred quality.” The experience may seem to be intrinsically sacred. (But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him. Moses 1:11).

4. Dreams and Visions; compare Nephi and Lehi, Daniel, Peter, and John, etc.

5. Personal Dialogue; you feel yourself addressed through events, and answer through your actions.[6]

[1] Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 151.

[2] Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 151.

[3] Joseph Smith to Brigham Young in a dream; see S. Dilworth Young, “Gift of the Holy Ghost,” Improvement Era 71 (November 1968): 76. Also, Brigham Young, “ An Olive Leaf: Tell the People to Keep the Spirit” in Sunstone 97 December 1994,

[4] Barbour, Myths, Models, and Paradigms, 53–54; Smart, Worldviews, 62-72; cf. Moses 1; Joseph Smith–Testimony; Mosiah’s sermon; Alma’s conversion, etc.

[5] Mark E. Koltko, “Mysticism and Mormonism: An LDS Perspective on Transcendence and Higher Consciousness,” Sunstone 13/2 (April 1989): 14–19.

[6] Barbour, Myths, Models, and Paradigms, 54-55.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Glenn101]

We have heard the phrase "left the church but cannot leave it alone". I left the church once, but it would not leave me alone. I have had a couple of spiritual experiences which have instilled a core of faith that will not leave me alone. That feeling also saved my life by keeping me from taking my own when I was in the darkest deepest hole of despair. It is more than a pleasant feeling or a feeling of happiness. The witness of the spirit leaves one with a gut, core feeling that is indescribable and inescapable.

Glenn

[Mudcat]

Are all such feelings "of God"?

Please reply.

Just my thoughts on the topic.

I don't think God makes us "feel" or literally gives us a particular feeling. This would nullify the notion of "free will" to some degree if God were to go about making people feel certain ways.

I think our feelings are simply that. We generate them in response to something, rather than having them forced upon us by some higher power. So the feelings we gain from being in the presence of the Spirit or perhaps the feelings we generate from gaining information from Him are a response from us.

[TAO]

Thank you TAO.

I have no doubt that a warm, peaceful feeling could come from The Holy Spirit, but I'm wondering whether all such feelings come from Him.

When I worked with Muslims, they noticed that I didn't eat pork, and they liked and respected that (especially when they learned that even though I identified myself as a Christian, I believed that God had told the Jews not to eat pork because it probably wasn't that good for you.)

I remember one who tried to convert me (more than once.)

He talked about how beautiful the Koran was (especially when read in Arabic), and how reading it made him feel.

I only vaguely remember this conversation (as it was years ago), but I'm sure he would have said it gave him a warm, peaceful feeling (and I do remember him saying that it could make him cry.)

If he wasn't lying--I mean, if he really had these warm feelings when reading passages from the Koran--were these feelings necessarily from God?

And what about my visit to the Palm Reader, the cleansing ritual, and how I felt afterward?

Was that necessarily from God?

I don't know. We can't relaly tell what others are feeling, really.

All we have to go off, really, is our actions, and feelings. We have to make choices, knowing we will be responsible for whatever consequences, positive or negative, befall us for our choices.

It's one reason I don't worry every time somebody says 'I feel the chuch is wrong'... because I cannot tell if they made the right choice or not... I didn't experience the things that they did. So I just say to myself... it doesn't matter... all that matters are my own experiences... and only I can choose what to do. It is a blessing though, to have personal experiences, to tell us what we need to do. But we have to decide what constitutes such a personal experience for ourself.

I've decided based on the 'spirit' of the experience so to say. I know what is 'good'... and I guess, instincitively, what is 'godly good'. When I have such an experience, I know it is from God. On the other hand, the tempter tries to duplicate these, but he can't get the texture right, he can't duplicate the 'godly good' texture of the experience that I know is from God. I know, and I remember the experience... so I won't be able to be decieved in the future. And yet still I fail. So I dunno... I'm rambling now.

In any case, do what you think is right; I can offer no better advice, follow what you think is the spirit, with the right texture, with the godly good texture... and you will know what it is, that you will =). God's watching us all, that he is =D. And he's pretty kind about it.

Best of Wishes,

-TAO

[inquiringmind]

What if the thought of killing yourself (and finally knowing whether there is something after death) gave you a peaceful, serene feeling?

What if even the thought of seeing someone you love only from a distance (the way the rich man saw Lazarus) didn't take that peaceful feeling away (at least, not at first--not until you really thought about it)?

Would that peaceful, serene, sweet feeling be "of God"?

This isn't an entirely hypothetical question.

It's based on something I'm still trying to sort out.

Edited January 7, 2012 by inquiringmind

[altersteve]

Just my thoughts on the topic.

I don't think God makes us "feel" or literally gives us a particular feeling. This would nullify the notion of "free will" to some degree if God were to go about making people feel certain ways.

I think our feelings are simply that. We generate them in response to something, rather than having them forced upon us by some higher power. So the feelings we gain from being in the presence of the Spirit or perhaps the feelings we generate from gaining information from Him are a response from us.

If we ask God for these feelings, then they are not "forced upon us" at all, and therefore this does not nullify the principle of agency in any way.

[altersteve]

I've decided based on the 'spirit' of the experience so to say. I know what is 'good'... and I guess, instincitively, what is 'godly good'. When I have such an experience, I know it is from God. On the other hand, the tempter tries to duplicate these, but he can't get the texture right, he can't duplicate the 'godly good' texture of the experience that I know is from God. I know, and I remember the experience... so I won't be able to be decieved in the future.

This reminds me of this revelation given to Oliver Cowdery, which makes a reference to another revelation Oliver received earlier:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things. Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?" (D&C 6:22-23)

The first thing that we must do if we wish to strengthen our testimony, and to know whether or not the feelings we get are from God, is to remember and "cast our minds" upon a moment that God has spoken speace unto our minds before. We must remember what we already know to be true, a knowledge by which we come to the knowledge of greater things. It is not simply a "feeling" that we must base our testimonies on because, as has been pointed out already, not all positive "feelings" come from the Spirit. But to know whether or not a feeling comes from the power of the Holy Ghost, we must remember, think, and ponder.

Believing is an act of faith, but it's also a very intellectual process. The united witness of the heart and mind is an important principle:

"Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me. But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right" (D&C 9:7-.

[inquiringmind]

It is not simply a "feeling" that we must base our testimonies on because, as has been pointed out already, not all positive "feelings" come from the Spirit. But to know whether or not a feeling comes from the power of the Holy Ghost, we must remember, think, and ponder.

Whether "all positive feelings come from the Spirit," is exactly what I was trying to ask in the OP, and I think you're the first one to say no (or maybe I didn't entirely understand what everyone else said.)

How did you come to your opinion?

And where else can positive feelings come from?

[altersteve]

Whether "all positive feelings come from the Spirit," is exactly what I was trying to ask in the OP, and I think you're the first one to say no (or maybe I didn't entirely understand what everyone else said.)

How did you come to your opinion?

And where else can positive feelings come from?

There are two types of "positive feelings," to my understanding, and it takes practice to learn how to discern between the two. There are truly positive feelings of love and peace and comfort, which are ultimately from God (as God is the source of all that is good), and then there feelings that only seem positive. Sinful thoughts and actions can produce these counterfeit "feelings," and Satan can make those feelings seem positive if you let him (or he can tempt you to interpret such a feeling as a positive one).

Remember, though, that a "feeling" merely accompanies a witness, and is not a witness itself, nor are the feelings that accompany a witness from God mere "warm fuzzies" in your chest. You can't describe it with words, because it comes from somewhere outside of yourself, and we as human beings are unable to adequately describe something that we are not naturally able to feel. This is why the term "feeling" or "burning" is used, because there's no other word that comes as close to describing it. It's like the descriptions of the Risen Christ given to us by John the Revelator, Joseph Smith, and others. They're all consistent and probably pretty accurate, but we have to understand that they probably do Him no justice whatsoever. A witness from the Holy Ghost is the same way. We can do our best to describe it, but we are ultimately unable to adequately do so, because it's from God and God cannot be described by any word in our dictionary.

Edited January 7, 2012 by altersteve

[inquiringmind]

So a peaceful, serene kinda feeling would always be of God?

[altersteve]

So a peaceful, serene kinda feeling would always be of God?

Not necessarily. If it is a feeling of true peace and true comfort, it is likely from God (though I am unable to know the feelings felt by anyone but myself, so I'm just using what I have felt myself and what I know to be true), but remember, Satan can make certain feelings that result from sinful thoughts and actions seem peaceful and serene, and he has the power to tempt you to interpret those feelings that way. So it's up to you to decide where that feeling is ultimately coming from, and that takes practice.

[TAO]

What if the thought of killing yourself (and finally knowing whether there is something after death) gave you a peaceful, serene feeling?

What if even the thought of seeing someone you love only from a distance (the way the rich man saw Lazarus) didn't take that peaceful feeling away (at least, not at first--not until you really thought about it)?

Would that peaceful, serene, sweet feeling be "of God"?

This isn't an entirely hypothetical question.

It's based on something I'm still trying to sort out.

That isn't for me to decide. That's between you and the Lord

I would not reccomend it of course, as I know God has things for us to do in life, and if they are incomplete, that will make things much harder for us.

But I also know that I ultimately cannot decide for another person.

In terms of death... and a spouse... or someone else you miss... you must remember, it is important not to be selfish, and to wallow in misery over death. Death is but a moment, a short time of interlude and journey in our mortal experience. Yes, to be seperated is sad... but in a sense... it is also happy. Because, you know that your spouse/someone else you miss is happy... and that they want you to go on. It's like going on a mission, really... you are away from family and those you love... but you are doing your duty to serve the Lord. You can still commuincate even, in some sense, through prayer.

Actually, I'm going to be going on a mission soon... and I'm going to be leaving someone I care about very much. I'm not going to be able to see her... and no phone calls either. Email or letter occasionally... but she isn't very good at letter, and email won't have the conversation style that our phone calls have. It's going to be... hard... but it will be worth it... and I know that I'll be better off because of it... and maybe she will too. Even through seperation, you can come to care about a person even more than you did before, if you make that choice to do so.

In any case, one of my best teachers at Sunday School, has had to deal with alot of death... and other bad things. He came out of high school as a football jock, and got married, and had a son, and lived happily for a few years. Then, his son died when his car slammed into a truck that someone had left on the highway (that person later fled across the border). Shortly later, his wife divorced him. And then, he found the church. Never once has he been angry at whomever it was that left the truck on the highway... and he has not compained about his lot in life. Later on in life, he started dating again, and met a wonderful woman. Then however, the women asked whether he really wanted to go through with this - she had MS, and was only likely to live another 2 years or less. He said he didn't care... and that he would do the best with the time the Lord gave him. They lived together for over 10 years, amazingly. Eventually, she was fully paralyzed, and yet he wheeled her around, all the same. And then, a few months ago, she died. I think he was sad... but before you knew it, he was over it. He knew she was happy. He knew she loved him. He knew that they would be together again. And that was all he needed. And now, he still lives, helping others to this day, by teaching a large group of teens in Sunday School.

So yes... I guess you must take from life what you must. But you must also remember, that there is a way to treat life, as a service, and that things are for a moment. Pain, sadness, lonelines... it is all for a moment... and if you wait and endure till the end through it... till God takes you... well... how great will things be then, so happy... so glorious... so... light.

I do hope that things go well for you, that I do.

Best of Wishes,

-TAO

=)

[TAO]

This reminds me of this revelation given to Oliver Cowdery, which makes a reference to another revelation Oliver received earlier:

The first thing that we must do if we wish to strengthen our testimony, and to know whether or not the feelings we get are from God, is to remember and "cast our minds" upon a moment that God has spoken speace unto our minds before. We must remember what we already know to be true, a knowledge by which we come to the knowledge of greater things. It is not simply a "feeling" that we must base our testimonies on because, as has been pointed out already, not all positive "feelings" come from the Spirit. But to know whether or not a feeling comes from the power of the Holy Ghost, we must remember, think, and ponder.

Believing is an act of faith, but it's also a very intellectual process. The united witness of the heart and mind is an important principle:

Hehe, that it is. It is a feeling... and a knowledge... and trust... and the truth... all put together, smudged into one very delicious oreo cookie of testimony and awesomeness! =D

[Mudcat]

If we ask God for these feelings, then they are not "forced upon us" at all, and therefore this does not nullify the principle of agency in any way.

I agree with you completely Steve and more importantly so does Scripture.. "Ask and it shall be given you.."

For example, there have been countless times I have "received" a feeling of peace on a troubling issue when I have prayed about it. Though in some respect, I believe the feeling of peace may have simply been my natural response to trusting God with the issue and placing the burden of it in his hands and receiving from Him the knowledge that I have done the right thing. Certainly other emotions would fit other scenarios. I still think our feelings are our response to God though. So I think there is more of a cause and effect thing going on there.

[zerinus]

One of the missionaries was recently trying to explain the difference between feeling The Spirit, and our emotions.

He said that there is a difference, but I'm not sure I understand it, and I would like to know some of your thoughts.

First of all, are good feelings (warm, benevolent, peaceful feelings) always of God?

Some people say they get such feelings from Eastern meditation techniques.

http://dandelnegro.c...iritualbio.html

Is this necessarily "of God"?

I once visited a Palm Reader, who told me to "stay what you are" (i.e. Catholic.)

She told me to do what she called a cleansing ritual, and that night I took a warm bath, and I asked God to clean me.

I said "make me clean," just like she told me to, and the next morning I woke up with a very warm, fuzzy feeling for my father (who also tells me to stay Catholic.)

Was that warm, fuzzy feeling necessarily "of God"?

Are all such feelings "of God"?

Please reply.

The Church has just put out a YouTube video about this subject which might interest you:

http://www.youtube.c...95254BDC885BDB5

[Maidservant]

Whether "all positive feelings come from the Spirit," is exactly what I was trying to ask in the OP, and I think you're the first one to say no (or maybe I didn't entirely understand what everyone else said.)

How did you come to your opinion?

And where else can positive feelings come from?

This question and struggle is one that is very relevant to my life, and I have made some conclusions that allow me to be functional as both a human being (at all) and as a faithful daughter to my Father in heaven (hopefully).

The short answer is that "no", not all positive feelings come from the Spirit.

Here is what I have learned.

First of all, emotions and feelings are not the same thing.

An emotion is a chemical (and/or an electrical impulse). The chemical system of your body (hormones and other chemical messages) and the electrical (nervous) system of our bodies are wired to produce pain or pleasure. This system is important to our body and can also tend to direct us to right or provide protection, but it is fallible and can have error as well. But for example, the pain of fire can cause us to keep our bodies out of a fire (which is protective/right). Exercise can induce the production of endorphins, which shows us the importance of movement for the emotional and physical health of our body. Falling in love with someone also has somatic symptoms that we often mistake for "destiny" or such that can lead us to an illusion, but otherwise in the case of a healthy bond with a member of the opposite sex, these symptoms can add to the joy.

So while emotions are very important and should not be ignored, they need to be taught, understood and sometimes taken with a grain of salt.

In the case of myself, I constantly have to struggle with the deficiences of the chemical system of my body, so I have to take my emotions as an indication of truth, right or reality with several heavy doses of salt so to speak. I.e. I can rarely trust my emotions. I have to have some other secondary (or primary) way of making decisions, having a relationship with God, and understanding truth or right.

I consider that the Holy Ghost (the Spirit) enlightens our emotions, our flesh, our spirit, our family bonds, our finances . . . the spirit has the power to enlighten and sanctify all of our being and sociality. A house is just a house . . . or is it, if the spirit is there? The spirit is meant to enter everything, including our emotions, and enlighten them.

=====

Now a feeling may or may not be an emotion. A feeling is an experience. And I am thinking we ought to replace the word, actually, but that's just my opinion. That experience of the Spirit may or may not involve emotions; indeed, it may or may not involve positive feelings of any other origin. I feel I can speak on many, many anecdotal instances of my experiences and others versus "feeling good"/"not feeling good" versus "the spirit/not the spirit". They do not always correspond. But the correspondence that can be there does not need to be disdained either.

For example, a gentleman in our ward was originally a convert. He speaks of how he attended church and he was listening to the hymns and he just felt good and wanted to be a part of something like that. I do not know if later he had a specific witness or not. But is his experience of feeling good and peaceful while listening to hymns, and wanting that to be a constant part of his life, valid? Sure, it is. It's his experience and the Spirit brought another joy to his life.

As far as persons of other religions or of no religion, the gospel teaches this: D & C 84:46 "And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit." The chances are that all truly good things that take place, have been done by those human beings who are able to listen to and live the spirit. In my view, there is not any good done without God and the spirit, and God has his hand everywhere. Not everyone is going to or can become a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in this lifetime, for a variety of reasons. But all are God's children, and he will lead them to the greatest joy that they can have if they have a sincere desire to live the light they have been given.

So the only thing that ought to concern us is our own walk with God and whether or not we can hear him (and then follow). And believe me, I still struggle with that on a daily basis, there is no magic pill for that.

Most of my life involves me "not feeling good". I carry great sadnesses and other burdens, and I have accepted that these will not leave me during this life. But I have come to understand that my faith and the Spirit is still present in my life, even when I don't "feel good". (I used to think that having faith meant being constantly cheerful, and this misconception caused me a great deal of trouble until I realized differently.)

I will share a few other experiences regarding the Spirit, neither of which involved emotion but both are experiences (feelings).

One, I went into a deep descent at one time of my life (over 15 years ago now) and my mind got very bad and I came to those thoughts where I believed the right thing was to take my own life, it made perfect sense, that freedom lay in death (etc). So one day as I was pondering on these things, and was in deep darkness and pain, I came to an edge, it seemed, and that one step more off the edge was my death. But then I had a thought, "But what about Jesus Christ?" There was no blinding light, no easing of the emotive components of my abyss. But just the name of Jesus Christ had an effect on me, and I knew him and I knew he was real and he was my Savior, and really the only thing that happened at that moment was that I "stepped back from the edge" so to speak. But at the same time, this experience is a foundation for me and is a small thing that has had great consequences for my life.

Two, I am 40 years old and for over 30 years of that time as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I had no idea what people were talking about "just knowing" that things were true. I did not question their experience, but I also knew that I had not had that, and my commitment to what I believed was true was based on other things. One day I was sitting in Relief Society and, as usual, struggled deeply with any desire to be there and other hard, hard things, wishing I could be anyone else, be anywhere else, and I certainly had a very bad attitude about God at that time. I just sat in one corner of the room and hunkered down into my coat. That day in Relief Society, the teacher had invited the full time missionaries to give the first discussion to the ladies. I was prepared to be utterly bored. In fact, it was funny, because the missionaries seemed to be struggling with the words and it also looked like they were upset with each other, like a personal problem (I saw a dirty look exchanged, lol). So one would think that the Spirit could not be there. The missionaries were human, and I certainly was not "asking" for, nor in any condition, to recieve light. However, as they continued with telling the discussion, an experience passed over me that I have never had before nor since. I do not think it had any emotive content to it. Yet it was as if someone had pulled open the drapes and let light in and that reality was so simple . . . I really had a heavenly Father who loved me and would send prophets, of course . . . it was as if I could feel a different world, not this one, but it wasn't ecstatic, it was simple, peaceful and real. I cannot describe it, but it was just perfect. So this experience also helps me to pass through many other things.

I don't need positive feelings to direct me to God. I have come to God by other means. In fact, I have come to God in my sorrows and weaknesses. As far as being led to what is true . . . you say that you feel led to be Catholic, then trust that. If you are not sure, then accept that you are not sure, and continue to seek truth and continue to learn about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have been a member all my life, but I still ask God almost daily if I should stay in the Church (for a variety of reasons), as I said it is a constant struggle for me. But . . . it's one that I'm not alone in, he is there and I know he understands me and where I'm at. But I can't wait for "witness" experiences to act, because one may never come (for me) (and although I can point to a few over my life time). I already know what I'm supposed to be doing . . . visiting teaching, leading my children and raising them in the priesthood and the covenant, loving people, being honest, paying my tithing, etc . . . it's more like this: 1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." and v 24 "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us." and John 7:17 "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

[inquiringmind]

The Church has just put out a YouTube video about this subject which might interest you:

http://www.youtube.c...95254BDC885BDB5

I looked at that, but it didn't really answer my question.

Have any of you ever been diving?

Have you ever heard of (or experienced) "rapture of the deep"?

If you get below 100 ft., it can feel so peaceful, so beautiful, that you just want to stay there.

That's one reason they say you should never dive alone.

You can lose track of time, and not know (or care) how much air you have in your tank.

It can be a very nice feeling, but is it of God?

Are all nice feelings "of God"?

That's still my question.

Edited January 7, 2012 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

Thank you Maidservant.

I think I understand some of what you said.

[mfbukowski]

I think the problem here is that there is no answer to your question.

It is a subjective knowledge that comes to you, you know it like you know when you are in love. How do you know that "for sure"? Either you do or you don't.

No one can help you know if you are in love or not, no one can tell you what creates meaning your life, or if God is speaking to you; these are all things you need to decide for yourself.

It is like knowing if God is "real" or not. If he is "real", and if he can speak to your heart, then you can "hear" him. If he's not "real" or if he can't or won't speak to your heart, then you can't "hear" him.

We can talk all day about "HOW" he supposedly speaks to you- this kind of feeling, that kind of feeling etc but that is just someone else telling you he does that.

But only you can know for yourself THAT he is real and HAS spoken to you.

[altersteve]

I looked at that, but it didn't really answer my question.

Have any of you ever been diving?

Have you ever heard of (or experienced) "rapture of the deep"?

If you get below 100 ft., it can feel so peaceful, so beautiful, that you just want to stay there.

That's one reason they say you should never dive alone.

You can lose track of time, and not know (or care) how much air you have in your tank.

It can be a very nice feeling, but is it of God?

Narcosis, also known as "rapture of the deep" or the "Martini effect," is a very dangerous medical condition caused by the gases in the water and your body's reaction to it, so I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and say no, it's probably not from God.

Remember, just because you feel peaceful, it does not mean God is giving you that feeling.

Edited January 7, 2012 by altersteve

[zerinus]

I looked at that, but it didn't really answer my question.

* * *

Are all nice feelings "of God"?

That's still my question.

The mistake you are making is that you are reducing it to a "nice feeling". It is more than that. I don't think you watched that video very carefully. The captions were more important in that video than the conversations. Those captions were quotations from the sermons and teachings of various Church leaders at various times. The interviews were meant to provide some kind of audiovisual content for the captions; and probably not very successfully. I suggest that you watch that video more carefully, and use the pause button to stop the video when the captions appear, and read and think about them carefully, and try to understand them, before moving on to the next frame.

Another thing that seems to be happening here is that you are watching or listening to anti-Mormons or their websites. The kind of objections you are bringing here are typical of what one finds on Evangelical sites critical of the Church. Your "inquiring mind" isn't serving you well here. "Listening to both side of the argument" doesn't always work, and isn't always the best strategy for finding truth, especially divine truth. That is like listening to the devil and God at the same time in order to be "even-handed". That kind of approach will not work with God. If you want to get anywhere with God, you need first to identify exactly who is the devil and who is God, and then completely reject the devil and approach God. God will not allow you to approach Him otherwise. You can't heed God and the devil at the same time in order to "play it even". God does not accept that kind of arrangement.

Next, you need to quit worrying about how God will communicate the truth to you, and start working towards obtaining that communication. When God decides to communicate the truth to you, you need to be willing to trust Him that He will do so in a manner that will not leave any doubts in your mind that He has. Do you believe in God? Do you believe that He is all powerful? Do you believe that He can reveal to you the truth in a manner that will not leave any doubts in your mind? If you believe all those things, then quit bringing excuses and start acting to obtain that witness. If you do not have that faith, then you are not yet ready for obtaining the witness you seek.

Have you read the Book of Mormon? Have you thought about it deeply as you read it? Have you fasted and prayed earnestly to the Lord as you read it for Him to reveal the truth of it to you, in faith, nothing wavering? These are the things that you need to do, if you earnestly desire to obtain the witness of its truth, instead of wasting time over "how" God will communicate the truth to you, or by trying to "play it even" by having one foot in the devil's camp and the other foot in God's camp.

Edited January 8, 2012 by zerinus

[mfbukowski]

Inquiring:

When you actually see Bukowski and Zerinus telling you the same thing- you know that's the real deal!

We are both brothers in the gospel, but on most gospel issues we are as far apart as you can be except the most important one and that is that the church is true and God can speak to you, and when he speaks to you, you know it! And what he will tell you is the truth of his gospel.