Women'S Opinions For New Stake Presidents

[Duncan]

So we should seek out the woman who has been in the stake the longest and let her overrule the high council? Is that what you are advocating?

haha! No! but a lady's opinion is worth something, and I just used that as an example. But you could be onto something there!

[zerinus]

I get that and have read of instances where that is the case and am satisfied that the right person is called. I just hope that if opinions are actaully considered as KTG suggests that the right person is called and the more input is better

I am sure opinions are considered, otherwise there would be no point in asking; and as I said, I personally don't see why sisters could not contribute.

[mfbukowski]

I am sure opinions are considered, otherwise there would be no point in asking; and as I said, I personally don't see why sisters could not contribute.

As you see it, when and how in the process would this happen?

[zerinus]

As you see it, when and how in the process would this happen?

Would what happen?

[Duncan]

Would what happen?

how the calling of the new stake president would practically happen. I'd say interview the outgoing Presidency, the high councilors, bishops and all the women's auxillary presidents and any others that were recommended. Take all that information and come up with a few names to take before the lord and get a confirmation of who he already has chosen. Tell the new ones and let them fill any vacancies if they exist

[zerinus]

how the calling of the new stake president would practically happen. I'd say interview the outgoing Presidency, the high councilors, bishops and all the women's auxillary presidents and any others that were recommended. Take all that information and come up with a few names to take before the lord and get a confirmation of who he already has chosen. Tell the new ones and let them fill any vacancies if they exist

I cannot speak from first-hand experience; but I would hazard a guess that a revelation could come at any time during the interviewing process, or after it, or perhaps even before it. There is no telling how the Spirit of the Lord operates in a given situation. His ways are infinite. The interview process, however, I would guess does more than just help the General Authority choose a new leader. It would help him obtain an insight into the condition of the stake generally, which might help him make other decisions or adjustments, or give counsel to the new leader, as the case might be.

[Duncan]

I cannot speak from first-hand experience; but I would hazard a guess that a revelation could come at any time during the interviewing process, or after it, or perhaps even before it. There is no telling how the Spirit of the Lord operates in a given situation. His ways are infinite. The interview process, however, I would guess does more than just help the General Authority choose a new leader. It would help him obtain an insight into the condition of the stake generally, which might help him make other decisions or adjustments, or give counsel to the new leader, as the case might be.

true, true!

[mfbukowski]

how the calling of the new stake president would practically happen. I'd say interview the outgoing Presidency, the high councilors, bishops and all the women's auxillary presidents and any others that were recommended. Take all that information and come up with a few names to take before the lord and get a confirmation of who he already has chosen. Tell the new ones and let them fill any vacancies if they exist

How would you ensure that the sisters, who have no access to such information, only recommend men who are worthy?

I mentioned that as a central problem earlier.

We seem to be going in circles

Edited December 27, 2011 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

I'm still not seeing the purpose of the "priesthood" recommendations. It sounds like the train of thought is to let the Lord make the call and encourage everyone to support it in spite of any potential worthiness issues.

So you think the GA should just come up with a name out of the air? Or the stake directory? Even if the brother he picks has been excommunicated?

I am just having trouble following this line of thinking

Edited December 27, 2011 by mfbukowski

[Duncan]

How would you ensure that the sisters, who have no access to such information, only recommend men who are worthy?

I mentioned that as a central problem earlier.

I don't know if I see it as a problem, they work with men or hear what they say or are and generally associate with them-in my scenario presented before possibly by the time you get to be the president of an auxillary you most likely have been around in the stake and see what is going on or who would make a good leader

[Duncan]

Even if the brother is excommunicated for good reasons? I guess I am just confused.

if a brother was exed then the only ones who would know would be the stake pres., high council and his bishopric and maybe a few others in his ward but I don't know if some other bishop in the stake would know unless that brother moved into his ward or something or was kicked off church property (that happened in our stake once) but under regular cases I doubt other stake leaders would know

[CV75]

I'm still not seeing the purpose of the "priesthood" recommendations. It sounds like the train of thought is to let the Lord make the call and encourage everyone to support it in spite of any potential worthiness issues. 'That sounds pretty good to me. I personally don't really care that much about the method, but I'm having a hard time understanding the explanations. In the stakes that I've been in, any number of men could be called to be president and would do an equally excellent job, but then again, I'm kind of a practical person. IF input is needed and actually considered, I don't see why the female leaders input should not be a part of the process. That's all I'm saying.

I think the purpose of "priesthood recommendations" is to tell more about he interviewee than others, as follows (please bear with this):

I agree that at the very least, the visiting authority has to show up, be receptive to the Spirit, and issue the call. I do think it helps to be within physical proximity to receive a witness (like the unborn John’s witness to Elizabeth of Jesus). Everyone has a line where they must have the physical and the spiritual worlds meet in order to receive a witness (e.g. we need to read the physical Book of Mormon), and meeting one-on-one with people facilitates revelation for a calling.

My thinking about the irrelevancy of others’ opinions about worthiness (or capability, competency, etc.) is because the calling of a stake president rests between the general authority and the Lord, and its acceptance is between the recipient and the Lord. In my opinion, the reason opinions or recommendations might be requested (implicitly or explicitly) is that it may be a way for the interviewee to reveal his attitude toward others, creating the sacred space necessary for the Lord to inspire the interviewer about the interviewee, and not about the other men the interviewee may talk about; the interviewee expressing himself may serve as a “leaping” moment like John's movement in he womb did for Elizabeth. So the only ones sharing observations are men since they are the only ones being interviewed as possible successors, and their observations reveal more about themselves than others.

Unlike other decisions made by priesthood leaders, these callings are not recommended in councils comprised of inspired men and women, but only by the responsible authority. I think this must have to do with the sitting stake president recusing himself from influencing others in the process and the visiting authority's minimizing any impression that existing interpersonal relationships within the stake's priesthood/auxiliary council influenced the call. Personal priesthood interviews are private and confidential, a council discussion more vulnerable to one group dynamic in something like this (and offers nothing relevant, for the interviewee must reveal himself for the purposes of the sought-after revelation).

This is a long way of saying that the selection of a stake president is a process not performed by a broad council of quorum and auxiliary representation and so excludes sisters’ opinions, and that opinions shared by the priesthood interviewee are, for the purposes of revelation about him, relevant to the interviewee and not to other candidates.

[katherine the great]

How would you ensure that the sisters, who have no access to such information, only recommend men who are worthy?

I think most women would make recommendations of men they have worked and served with (perhaps in the temple), and who are generally presumed to be worthy. The only information they may not know is something that happened in the distant past, and I assume those things are not common knowledge even in the "inner circles", and shouldn't even really matter if they were repented of.

[mfbukowski]

OK I have no objection to it- never have- if all the details could be worked out.

Please inform the First Presidency that Bukowski says to go ahead with it, if they can work out all the details.

<waiting for imminent lightning strike>

[Nominee]

I have read through the thread and I keep hearing it said in so many words that the lack of women's involvment somehow equals a lack of worth regarding womens' opinion on the matters. I firmly disagree with this! It is not in anyway because a woman's opinion isn't worth as much that it is not requested. I believe God's church is an amazing organization. And yes~ point being that it is organized ~ according to God. I think the opinion of the women in church is very well known among the priesthood leaders. I know that my Bishop talks with my Relief Society President continuously and that more than 1/2 of what he knows is because of her willingness to work together with him and all the other ward leaders (Including primary, activities, teachers, etc.) so that our ward family can be just that ~ a family. What the Relief Society President knows, the Bishop knows, what the Bishop knows, the Stake President knows. Think about that for a minute and then tell me how anyone could think that women have not enough say in the decision making process. I think what this OP is really about isn't whether women have a say but whether or not they are getting any credit for it. And I don't think a woman acting righteously is too concerned about credits because Heavenly Father is giving her all that she needs.

[Duncan]

I have read through the thread and I keep hearing it said in so many words that the lack of women's involvment somehow equals a lack of worth regarding womens' opinion on the matters. I firmly disagree with this! It is not in anyway because a woman's opinion isn't worth as much that it is not requested. I believe God's church is an amazing organization. And yes~ point being that it is organized ~ according to God. I think the opinion of the women in church is very well known among the priesthood leaders. I know that my Bishop talks with my Relief Society President continuously and that more than 1/2 of what he knows is because of her willingness to work together with him and all the other ward leaders (Including primary, activities, teachers, etc.) so that our ward family can be just that ~ a family. What the Relief Society President knows, the Bishop knows, what the Bishop knows, the Stake President knows. Think about that for a minute and then tell me how anyone could think that women have not enough say in the decision making process. I think what this OP is really about isn't whether women have a say but whether or not they are getting any credit for it. And I don't think a woman acting righteously is too concerned about credits because Heavenly Father is giving her all that she needs.

I agree but when a stake president is being recommended it would be nice to have women's opinions heard and I don't see in the current way of doing things that this is happening. Who recommended who gets to be the stake president isnt what I am after so much as that women have their opinion considered. This happens as you say on the local level but I just would like to see it happen when a new stake president is called

[Nominee]

I agree but when a stake president is being recommended it would be nice to have women's opinions heard and I don't see in the current way of doing things that this is happening. Who recommended who gets to be the stake president isnt what I am after so much as that women have their opinion considered. This happens as you say on the local level but I just would like to see it happen when a new stake president is called

I hear what you're saying but I believe that their opinion is being heard. Every man who speaks has his wife, mother, daughter, sister, niece... in his head, his heart, his mind when he gives his words. I may even venture further out on to the ice in saying that I believe a man's opinion on any matter to not be his alone. Women have a powerful place in the scheme of all things, as God intended. The part women play should not be taken lightly by men OR women. We nuture, succor, build up, calm down, and see through ~next to and for the men of the world. There is nothing that is ever done without us.

Add: Just for laughs, I want to mention that possibly a woman's opinion is SO powerful that one need not even open her mouth to be heard.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Nominee

[katherine the great]

OK I have no objection to it- never have- if all the details could be worked out.

Please inform the First Presidency that Bukowski says to go ahead with it, if they can work out all the details.

I'll tell them.

[katherine the great]

I have read through the thread and I keep hearing it said in so many words that the lack of women's involvment somehow equals a lack of worth regarding womens' opinion on the matters.

That isn't what I'm saying. (I can't speak for everyone else.)

[Duncan]

OK I have no objection to it- never have- if all the details could be worked out.

Please inform the First Presidency that Bukowski says to go ahead with it, if they can work out all the details.

<waiting for imminent lightning strike>

I'll write a letter to the 1st Pres. and say "bro's FMKubowski and Nacnud are of the opinion that"! haha! that'll through them off the scent!!

Edited December 27, 2011 by Duncan

[Nominee]

That isn't what I'm saying. (I can't speak for everyone else.)

I know.

These are some quotes I was referring to:

I don't see why her opinion would be considered less...

...so their opinion worth more then a lady who has lived in the area since the 1960's?

I don't see why a High Councilor's opinion is worth more then a sister who has lived longer in the stake...

All of these quotes are Duncan. I consider Duncan a good man and a friend. The point I am trying to make by drawing these out is that I don't believe worth has anything to do with it. I have every reason to believe that a woman's opinion has just as much value as a man's in the hearts of our leaders and decision makers. I offer up the idea that our input is actually highly valued, necessary, and even required; however, given and made known through service specific to us.

Here is another one from Duncan:

...but a lady's opinion is worth something

Correct, no doubt about it! And thank you Duncan. I consider you a great respecter of women! Much appreciated.

women's opinions to me seem like an untapped resource,...

I think we are tapped. Just not in the same way that men are. And that is okay with me.

[mfbukowski]

I'll write a letter to the 1st Pres. and say "bro's FMKubowski and Nacnud are of the opinion that"! haha! that'll through them off the scent!!

That makes two cents and is about what it is worth!

[Duncan]

I know.

These are some quotes I was referring to:

All of these quotes are Duncan. I consider Duncan a good man and a friend. The point I am trying to make by drawing these out is that I don't believe worth has anything to do with it. I have every reason to believe that a woman's opinion has just as much value as a man's in the hearts of our leaders and decision makers. I offer up the idea that our input is actually highly valued, necessary, and even required; however, given and made known through service specific to us.

Here is another one from Duncan:

Correct, no doubt about it! And thank you Duncan. I consider you a great respecter of women! Much appreciated.

I think we are tapped. Just not in the same way that men are. And that is okay with me.

fair enough! Thank you for the kind words!

[Stargazer]

I personally think that the women's opinion should be considered. Women in Stake leadership callings have to interact regularly with the Stake President, and I personally have known of instances when the men in leadership positions have had very positive experiences with a Stake President, but the women have found him difficult to work with. I'm not sure it would have made any difference in the selection process, but if opinions are really important, I think women should have a say as well as the men.

When I was called to be a branch president, the stake pres asked my wife if she would sustain me. I suspect that if she had said No, then I wouldn't have gotten the calling.

[LeSellers]

I think the kind of input the brethren are looking for may not be as obvious as it appears. From what our visiting authority said, I gather that sometimes they have no other idea than to show up where they need to be and proceed to meet the men available and any conversation about opinions (which doesn’t always occur) is incidental.

When the newly ordained Elder Bednar came to our stake conference several years ago, he told the story of calling a stake president.

The visiting authority and the High Council with the outgoing stake presidency were meeting in the High Council Room and had been struggling with the calling for far longer than it was customary to do. A man, new to the stake and lost in the stake center knocked and more-or-less barged in, blushed profusely and quickly closed the door before he even asked the question hanging from every feature of his face. The General Authority turned to those present and asked who he was. No one knew, but he was the next stake president.

I believe the Lord uses all of the possible (and the obvious most frequently) ways to get the name of the man He chooses for his callings "up" before the person making the call.

Before Heber J. Grant was President of the High Priesthood, he consistently proposed one man's name to be an Apostle whenever a vacancy occurred in the Quorum. After President Smith died, another man was called to fill the newly open seat. President Grant said, on announcing the calling, "I assure you, this is the Lord's doing. I had another man in mind." Matthew Cowley was called later.

The Lord may move in mysterious ways from time to time, but He uses quite ordinary men to accomplish the majority of His works; sometimes, He has to nudge them a tad.

Lehi