Duncan Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 I heard a story recently about 3 LDS young men of missionary age, who didn't go on a mission, and were camping and long story short something happened that one of them was killed and the other seriously injured. The statement was made that because they weren't on a mission they didn't listen to the Holy Ghost and weren't where they were needed to be and so weren't worthy of the spirit, otherwise they would have not had that situation happen. My question is how do we know when bad stuff like this happen to us if we were unworthy of the spirit, or were supposed to have had guidance of the spirit because what if that was God's plan for those people and were never told about it in advance via the spirit? How do we assign some cause to seemingly bad stuff that happens?
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 I wonder how the uber-charitable brother or sister who made that statement judges the Missionaries killed on bikes a couple weeks ago.That kind of combined mind reading of God and unrighteous judgementalism irks me something awful. I pray the parents of those boys never hear such hurtful drivel.(Now ask me how I really feel about this kind of gossip) 2
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 ...now that I have ranted.Bad stuff happens to good people all the time. God doesn't interfere with others agency. We can be warned of danger and avoid obvious dangers but we are still subject to the wild and wooly experience of mortality.Being close to the Spirit more often than not helps us heal and understand our place in the universe is more than just "here and now" even when we are suffering.
Duncan Posted November 17, 2011 Author Posted November 17, 2011 This was said at a missionary farewell testimony meeting that one of the brothers to one killed at spoke and his folks from the States had come up to attend and pick him up!
Calm Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 How do we assign some cause to seemingly bad stuff that happens?The same way we make any spiritual judgement....though asking God.And IMO we only need to make that judgment for ourselves, those who judge others by what happens to them sound like those playing games with the Lord when they demanded he judge who was the sinner, the blind man or his patents. 2
jo1952 Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 This was said at a missionary farewell testimony meeting that one of the brothers to one killed at spoke and his folks from the States had come up to attend and pick him up!I hope that this brother of one the victims isn't submitting his papers to become a missionary any time soon. At least not until he himself is filled with the Holy Spirit through his personal efforts to understand and keep the two greatest commandments. Regards,jo
KevinG Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 I hope that this brother of one the victims isn't submitting his papers to become a missionary any time soon. At least not until he himself is filled with the Holy Spirit through his personal efforts to understand and keep the two greatest commandments.Regards,joI'm not sure from the comment that he was the one who said it. He was speaking at that occasion. The person who did say it is in need of repentance including an apology to the family. 1
jo1952 Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 I'm not sure from the comment that he was the one who said it. He was speaking at that occasion. The person who did say it is in need of repentance including an apology to the family.It seemed that it was - but it certainly is not clear. Perhaps Duncan could clarify this for us. I agree, the person who did say it needs to repent and apologize to the family. However, this will not happen nor be sincere until the speaker has his blindness removed.....sigh.Regards,jo
ERayR Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 I wonder how the uber-charitable brother or sister who made that statement judges the Missionaries killed on bikes a couple weeks ago.That kind of combined mind reading of God and unrighteous judgementalism irks me something awful. I pray the parents of those boys never hear such hurtful drivel.(Now ask me how I really feel about this kind of gossip) Me too.
Duncan Posted November 18, 2011 Author Posted November 18, 2011 It seemed that it was - but it certainly is not clear. Perhaps Duncan could clarify this for us. I agree, the person who did say it needs to repent and apologize to the family. However, this will not happen nor be sincere until the speaker has his blindness removed.....sigh.Regards,jothe brother of one of the persons involved was now a missionary and spoke at a farewell missionary meeting and shared this story about his brother and said all that stuff
Calm Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 If it was his brother who said it, I wonder what his parents thought....Sometimes I think it might be a good idea for something really bad to happen to those who have this attitude so they could learn a valuable lesson, but it would be much better if their eyes could just be opened by observing how often bad things happen to good people, even those who are following the spirit. My youngest brother was somewhat over the top as a newbie missionary. We got to meet him up at the airport after his stay at the MTC prior to his leaving for Mexico. He stated something along the lines that he felt that he was to call for repentance from the family on their commitment to the Church....not that we were doing anything wrong, just we needed to do more, weren't as spiritual as we could be, etc. He was quite the sanctimonious twit. My husband and I laughed about it for the hour drive home. He was such a sweet kid, gotten sucked totally into the MTC atmosphere and wanted to share it with the world. Not a bad thing for a new missionary.And since he was as sensible as he was sweet, the "I'm here to save the world" attitude wore off quickly and he had forgotten all about it by the time he got home.New missionaries are sometimes very, very young and naive and even judgmental. For most it seems to be a thing of the past by the time they get home, thankfully.
KevinG Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 the brother of one of the persons involved was now a missionary and spoke at a farewell missionary meeting and shared this story about his brother and said all that stuffWow. Thats doubly sad. I agree with Jo in that case.
KevinG Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 He stated something along the lines that he felt that he was to call for repentance from the family on their commitment to the Church....They are so cute when they are newly hatched. I think there is a natural tendency to go overboard when we have personal growth and want to share it with everyone. Like a dog who rolled in something smelly and wants to rub it off on everyone!!
LeSellers Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) I think there is a natural tendency to go overboard when we have personal growth and want to share it with everyone. Like a dog who rolled in something smelly and wants to rub it off on everyone!!You really think that's an apt analogy?Lehi Edited November 18, 2011 by LeSellers
KevinG Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 You really think that's an apt analogy?LehiYes- I use it in training all the time. When we think a new learning or discovery is exciting and want to share it that doesn't mean everyone around us is ready for it or receptive. It is the responsibility of the one sharing to take into account their audience and teach charitably.The analogy is not a value judgement of the content of the teaching. In my own life I have had to be careful not to take the latest greatest success tips or personal insight and "try it out" on my family. I learned the hard way that it was better to modify my own behavior and be an example than it was to preach to everyone around me that they needed to modify their behavior based on something I learned.
Calm Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) They are so cute when they are newly hatched. I think there is a natural tendency to go overboard when we have personal growth and want to share it with everyone. Like a dog who rolled in something smelly and wants to rub it off on everyone!!A better description I cannot think of.add-on: having read the next few posts, I see that Lehi is not so sure of its value. I still think it's spot on myself on many levels, after all that smelly something could be the most expensive perfume bottle that got split. Edited November 18, 2011 by calmoriah
LeSellers Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) Like a dog who rolled in something smelly and wants to rub it off on everyone!!You really think that's an apt analogy?Yes- I use it in training all the time. When we think a new learning or discovery is exciting and want to share it that doesn't mean everyone around us is ready for it or receptive. It is the responsibility of the one sharing to take into account their audience and teach charitably.The analogy is not a value judgement of the content of the teaching.In my own life I have had to be careful not to take the latest greatest success tips or personal insight and "try it out" on my family. I learned the hard way that it was better to modify my own behavior and be an example than it was to preach to everyone around me that they needed to modify their behavior based on something I learned.A better description I cannot think of.add-on: having read the next few posts, I see that Lehi is not so sure of its value. I still think it's spot on myself on many levels, after all that smelly something could be the most expensive perfume bottle that got split.The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not "something smelly".Lehi Edited November 18, 2011 by LeSellers
Storm Rider Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 I heard a story recently about 3 LDS young men of missionary age, who didn't go on a mission, and were camping and long story short something happened that one of them was killed and the other seriously injured. The statement was made that because they weren't on a mission they didn't listen to the Holy Ghost and weren't where they were needed to be and so weren't worthy of the spirit, otherwise they would have not had that situation happen. My question is how do we know when bad stuff like this happen to us if we were unworthy of the spirit, or were supposed to have had guidance of the spirit because what if that was God's plan for those people and were never told about it in advance via the spirit? How do we assign some cause to seemingly bad stuff that happens?What a load of horse hooey. These are the types of statements only those that have no understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ, personal righteousness, worthiness, or the Holy Spriit would utter. I can hear the Savior clearly state, "depart from me for I never knew you". The truth is that bad things happen to the righteous and the unrighteous. Their coming does not relate to personal worthiness; they just happen. We are here in this mortal life to learn, to grow, and we know that for this to occur that we will go through trials and tribulations. No need to try and invent anything else.
The Nehor Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 I heard a story recently about 3 LDS young men of missionary age, who didn't go on a mission, and were camping and long story short something happened that one of them was killed and the other seriously injured. The statement was made that because they weren't on a mission they didn't listen to the Holy Ghost and weren't where they were needed to be and so weren't worthy of the spirit, otherwise they would have not had that situation happen. My question is how do we know when bad stuff like this happen to us if we were unworthy of the spirit, or were supposed to have had guidance of the spirit because what if that was God's plan for those people and were never told about it in advance via the spirit? How do we assign some cause to seemingly bad stuff that happens?You don't know the difference unless God tells you. He rarely does. It's dangerous to ignorantly assign causes to things especially if you are trying (as in this case) to teach a moral lesson.If this person was run over by a car the next day would that be because they were an uncharitable git or because it was part of God's plan or was it just an accident?
Nominee Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 Free agency allows us to make choices in our lives that could and do often affect others negatively and even cause bad things to happen to good people. It is not God's will that any of us suffer, I think it hurts him to see any one of His children in pain of any kind. But free agency is a very important element in our personal growth. IMO, in order to control who bad things happen to ~ one would need to control us.
Calm Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not "something smelly".Lehihttp://lds.org/scriptures/nt/philip/4.18?lang=eng#17
LeSellers Posted November 18, 2011 Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not "something smelly".18 But I have all, and abouind: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God."Something smelly" (specifically something a dog rolls in) and "an odour of a sweet smell:" are not the same things.Lehi Edited November 18, 2011 by LeSellers
Freedom Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 We have a list of 30 + prospective elders in our ward. None of them went on missions and all of them are alive so no, I cannot see the death of two boys as being a result of not serving a mission. As for the title of your topic, any mistake could be considered a sin I suppose, but not all transgressions are sins. A transgression, as I understand it, is when someone transgresses or steps over the law. The police transgress the speeding limits when they race to an emergency, but they are not in violation of the law. An ambulance, however, is not authorized in most jurisdictions to speed so, in theory, they could be pulled over if they are exceeding the speed limit with their lights on. The reason is quite simple, these vehicles are not designed to go too fast in a safe manner. I suspect that violating a law unknowingly could, in circumstances, not be considered a sin.
Duncan Posted November 19, 2011 Author Posted November 19, 2011 We have a list of 30 + prospective elders in our ward. None of them went on missions and all of them are alive so no, I cannot see the death of two boys as being a result of not serving a mission. As for the title of your topic, any mistake could be considered a sin I suppose, but not all transgressions are sins. A transgression, as I understand it, is when someone transgresses or steps over the law. The police transgress the speeding limits when they race to an emergency, but they are not in violation of the law. An ambulance, however, is not authorized in most jurisdictions to speed so, in theory, they could be pulled over if they are exceeding the speed limit with their lights on. The reason is quite simple, these vehicles are not designed to go too fast in a safe manner. I suspect that violating a law unknowingly could, in circumstances, not be considered a sin.That is what i thought too, I have a friend who was born and raised in the Church and he just never went on a mission and he served as the EQ Pres. in our YSA ward and he is as faithful as any other-I just think we should be careful when assigning causes to things but maybe it gives them some sense of closure and some reason it happened when in reality it is way off
KevinG Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not "something smelly".LehiI missed this yesterday. Sorry.The analogy was not that the Gospel smells, it is that sometimes when we learn something and it is good to us we neglect to remember others may not be as pleased to have it thrust upon them in that time and place. Even the best gifts need to be given with respect to others agency.
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