Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Cobalt-70:All Christians believe in Blood Atonement.Yes they do...as well as Jews.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Could be both. Maybe he tried to hang himself and it didn't work for some reason so he decided to go off a cliff, or maybe or maybe he hung himself near or over a cliff, jumped off, and ended up hitting the bottom.Not sure he was that incompetent since he served as an Apostle to Christ himself. Unless he was nothing more than a pawn that Christ used to his own advantage/disadvantage?
Damien the Leper Posted October 7, 2011 Author Posted October 7, 2011 (edited) Could be both. Maybe he tried to hang himself and it didn't work for some reason so he decided to go off a cliff, or maybe or maybe he hung himself near or over a cliff, jumped off, and ended up hitting the bottom.This is too closely related to Augustine's theory on Judas' death. Augustine stated that both happened...one right after the other. This is not accepted as correct by many. Edited October 7, 2011 by Valentinus
Damien the Leper Posted October 7, 2011 Author Posted October 7, 2011 From a scholarly perspective, the whole story of Judas' betrayal is a bit suspect. The very earliest Christian documents, including Paul's letters and apparently the hypothetical document Q, did not mention a betrayal by Judas. In fact, there is a passage attributed to Q (Matt. 19:28 and Luke 22:28-30) in which Jesus confers upon each of the Twelve (including Judas) a throne by which they would judge the twelve tribes of Israel. If Jesus knew that Judas would betray him, then he probably wouldn't have given him a heavenly throne. The Judas betrayal story does not apparently appear until the 70s AD when the Gospel of Mark was written.This raises questions. If Paul, nor the hypothetical Q, do not mention Judas' betrayal what does that say about the passion narratives found in the Synoptic Gospels? If the betrayal is not mentioned for no less than 30 years after Jesus' crucifixion what does that say about the importance of the Atonement in light of Paul's teachings and his conversion recorded in Acts? I would be curious as to what Paul actually knew about the death of Jesus and how it impacted his conversion. If we were to ask Paul about Jesus' death and then ask the author of Mark...I'm curious as to what they would say and how much would actually match up. 1
mfbukowski Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 I agree that the message is what is important. However, had Judas not done what he had...what would the message then be? I relate Judas' death to that of the Garden of Eden narrative in the Torah. If neither Adam or Eve partaken of the fruit...what then would be the message? These two situations are important and central to the message that the LDS church is trying to relay to the world. If neither situation went 'negatively' as the stories tell then what would the message be? How things happened and why they happened are very important because they tell us something more about the characters in the narratives. It provides a way of getting a closer look at the person and allows us a way in which we may possibly identify with them.But the point is, isn't it "convenient" that the stories went just that way to teach a lesson?
Damien the Leper Posted October 7, 2011 Author Posted October 7, 2011 But the point is, isn't it "convenient" that the stories went just that way to teach a lesson?I am hoping that it wasn't convenient but divinely mandated. I believe that Adam and Eve HAD to do what they did and I believe that Judas HAD to do what he did. I am a firm believer in foreordination. I believe that it was the First Parents and Judas' divine mandate to do what they did to bring about the fullness of Jesus' gospel.
seriously honestly Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Not sure he was that incompetent since he served as an Apostle to Christ himself. Unless he was nothing more than a pawn that Christ used to his own advantage/disadvantage?I'm not sure I'd say it was a matter of incompetence; maybe a matter of fear? Maybe the rope broke? I don't know. And he may have served as an Apostle, but he was still human (certainly being and Apostle didn't prevent him from betraying Christ).
Damien the Leper Posted October 7, 2011 Author Posted October 7, 2011 I'm not sure I'd say it was a matter of incompetence; maybe a matter of fear? Maybe the rope broke? I don't know. And he may have served as an Apostle, but he was still human (certainly being and Apostle didn't prevent him from betraying Christ).Did he actually betray Jesus? Or is it interpretive language on display in the text but not substantiated by possibly accurate and un-recorded history? 1
seriously honestly Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 This is too closely related to Augustine's theory on Judas' death. Augustine stated that both happened...one right after the other. This is not accepted as correct by many.Why is that anyway? I believe there is something were missing that would connect the two view points, even if we don't have the exact answer at the moment.
seriously honestly Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Did he actually betray Jesus? Or is it interpretive language on display in the text but not substantiated by possibly accurate and un-recorded history?Mmmmm, what do you mean?
Damien the Leper Posted October 7, 2011 Author Posted October 7, 2011 Why is that anyway? I believe there is something were missing that would connect the two view points, even if we don't have the exact answer at the moment.Given the date of when Judas reportedly died and the earliest reference in Acts (written 62-64 CE) and then Matthew's reference (written about 70 CE) there isn't much to draw on. Paul/Luke says one thing several years before the author of Matthew does. If there is a connection that the authors had...we don't know what it is.
Calm Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Judas' divine mandate to do what they did to bring about the fullness of Jesus' gospel.Do you believe that it was a sin for Judas to do what he did? Do you believe he had a choice?
ERMD Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 Not sure he was that incompetent since he served as an Apostle to Christ himself. Unless he was nothing more than a pawn that Christ used to his own advantage/disadvantage?It is no small thing to kill one's self. I have seen FAR more suicide gestures or attempts than successes.
ERMD Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 Do you believe that it was a sin for Judas to do what he did? Do you believe he had a choice?Judas:ChristSnape:Dumbledore??? 1
mfbukowski Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 It is no small thing to kill one's self. I have seen FAR more suicide gestures or attempts than successes.Perhaps that's because the successes don't end up in the ER?
Calm Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 (edited) It is no small thing to kill one's self. I have seen FAR more suicide gestures or attempts than successes.Thank goodness.FYI: It is believed there are 11 attempts on average for every 'success story' when it comes to suicide.http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-us-statistics-and-prevention/index.shtml Edited October 9, 2011 by calmoriah
blackstrap Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 ERMD can correct me but I think a body must fall a very long ways in order to split the bowels open,unless it hits a sharp rock.If Judas hung himself and remained so for several days in the hot sun,then ,if the branch gave way or the cord broke,the fall of a rotting body could then split open.
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