Will The Holy Spirit Progress?

[Mudcat]

Sounds like an odd question, I suppose. Let me explain why I ask. LDS seem to believe that the Father and Son both have physical bodies. LDS seem to believe having a physical body is part of the exaltation process. But LDS seem to also think that the Holy Spirit does not have a physical body.

Somehow the Holy Spirit is considered part of the LDS Godhead. I have heard a few missionaries make analogies that the Holy Spirit, in some respects, is like the Sun... radiating the light of truth. This answer has usually come when I asked, "How can the HS be in more than one place at one time?" Perhaps this something LDS believe is some sort of "advantage" to only having a spiritual body and being part of the Godhead at the same time. I am not completely certain but this seems to be some general premise I have heard repeated a few times.

The thought I am left with is that LDS seem to believe that the Holy Spirit radiates truth to all, but then he can also be with you specifically at points. Can he specifically be with 50 people telling them 50 different things at the same time and still radiate truth? Don't feel compelled to answer, it was more rhetorical than anything, just wondering about the fact that LDS believe the Gift of the Holy Ghost is a guarantee of his companionship and how that works.

LDS look at the Holy Spirit in a different way than I do, in a number of respects. Of any subject, I think the Holy Spirit epistemology of LDS is the one topic I find the most confusing.

I suppose the main thing is given the fact LDS believe the Holy Spirit doesn't have a physical body and also given D&C 121:46.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant ^acompanion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of ^brighteousness and truth; and thy ^cdominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever

With language like "unchanging" and "forever and ever" this doesn't sound like the HG's role changes in the future.

I don't know a good "spot on" sort of question that comes to mind, other than the OP question and what your thoughts are in that respect.

Regards,

Mudcat

edited - didn't post the whole cited verse and added some clarity on paragraph 3. Ooops

Edited September 20, 2011 by Mudcat

[jo1952]

Sounds like an odd question, I suppose. Let me explain why I ask. LDS seem to believe that the Father and Son both have physical bodies. LDS seem to believe having a physical body is part of the exaltation process. But LDS seem to also think that the Holy Spirit does not have a physical body.

Somehow the Holy Spirit is considered part of the LDS Godhead. I have heard a few missionaries make analogies that the Holy Spirit, in some respects, is like the Sun... radiating the light of truth. This answer has usually come when I asked, "How can the HS be in more than one place at one time?" Perhaps this something LDS believe is some sort of "advantage" to only having a spiritual body and being part of the Godhead at the same time. I am not completely certain but this seems to be some general premise I have heard repeated a few times.

The thought I am left with is that LDS seem to believe that the Holy Spirit radiates truth to all, but then he can also be with you specifically at points. Can he specifically be with 50 people telling them 50 different things at the same time and still radiate truth? Don't feel compelled to answer, it was more rhetorical than anything, just wondering about the fact that LDS believe the Gift of the Holy Ghost is a guarantee of his companionship and how that works.

LDS look at the Holy Spirit in a different way than I do, in a number of respects. Of any subject, I think the Holy Spirit epistemology of LDS is the one topic I find the most confusing.

I suppose the main thing is given the fact LDS believe the Holy Spirit doesn't have a physical body and also given D&C 121:46.

With language like "unchanging" and "forever and ever" this doesn't sound like the HG's role changes in the future.

I don't know a good "spot on" sort of question that comes to mind, other than the OP question and what your thoughts are in that respect.

Regards,

Mudcat

edited - didn't past the whole cited verse and added some clarity on paragraph 3. Ooops

Hi Mudcat!

This is a great question, as I would guess that many LDS have wondered this same thing. There is another thread that was discussing whether or not the Holy Ghost is actually a calling. I haven't even read any of it, so I don't know if your OP might be addressed there.

I'll offer my thoughts; but they are not anything being taught to me as part of Church doctrine. If there is any connection to anything that is doctrine, then it is by chance, rather than anything I specifically remember being said.

Simply put, I believe the Holy Ghost is also an organized intelligence born spiritually like the rest of us. He was chosen from among the spirits by Father to fulfill the role of "Holy Ghost" for specifically this world. At some point, I believe He will also receive a physical body; thus being able to progress just like the rest of us. I think there is a specific spirit called to fulfill the role of "Holy Ghost" for each world. If they never have the opportunity to receive a physical body, then they do not have the same opportunities afforded to them. There is most likely some sort of "hierarchy" among the Beings in Heaven; those called to the role of Holy Ghost being one of the "higher" "positions". (Just like there is an hierarchy among angels....of which I believe we are also, when we are not in the flesh and depending on what "time" period of our world we are participating in).

I'm sure that was clear as mud.....no pun intended.

Love,

jo

[rameumptom]

I personally believe that the Holy Ghost is a calling, like 2nd counselor in a bishopric. Its purpose is to train leaders for important positions in morality. So, it is possible Adam, Enoch, Noah, Moses, Peter, and Joseph Smith all were once the Holy Ghost. They learned leadership in a very important position. As mortal prophets, the experience their own spirits had obtained would be an innate part of them, even through the veil of forgetfulness. In this way, there can always be a Holy Ghost who is a spirit, while allowing each to also have his time to obtain a body in mortality and progress into the eternities.

While the Holy Ghost is an individual, his influence and power spreads forth. Is it possible that he uses others in his work? Most likely. Nephi noted that the angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. We also find that the Light of Christ is the essential power of God that flows through the universe, and is a power that is harnessed by the Holy Spirit to accomplish his work.

[altersteve]

He was chosen from among the spirits by Father to fulfill the role of "Holy Ghost" for specifically this world....I think there is a specific spirit called to fulfill the role of "Holy Ghost" for each world.

I disagree. I don't believe there are other Holy Ghosts for other worlds, just as I don't believe there are other God the Fathers or Jesus Christs for other worlds. There is one Godhead, which is eternal, universal, and unchanging.

That's my opinion, though.

However, I believe the Church discourages its members from speculating about the issue of the Holy Ghost receiving a body.

Edited September 20, 2011 by altersteve

[Storm Rider]

Somehow the Holy Spirit is considered part of the LDS Godhead. I have heard a few missionaries make analogies that the Holy Spirit, in some respects, is like the Sun... radiating the light of truth. This answer has usually come when I asked, "How can the HS be in more than one place at one time?" Perhaps this something LDS believe is some sort of "advantage" to only having a spiritual body and being part of the Godhead at the same time. I am not completely certain but this seems to be some general premise I have heard repeated a few times.

I suppose the main thing is given the fact LDS believe the Holy Spirit doesn't have a physical body and also given D&C 121:46. With language like "unchanging" and "forever and ever" this doesn't sound like the HG's role changes in the future.

I am a little confused by your use of D&C 121:46: "The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant ^acompanion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of ^brighteousness and truth; and thy ^cdominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever."

This scripture's context is that if we use the priesthood wisely, i.e. that we are valiant in our service to others and in a capacity of presidency filled in a Christ-like manner, THEN will the Holy Ghost be our constant companion (a re-statement of the promise of the Gift of the Holy Ghost). The balance of the verse is for the individual and does not address the Holy Spirit.

It is not appropriate to state, "somehow". It is much stronger than that, the Holy Spirit is the third member of the Godhead. It is not questioned anymore than the presence of the Holy Spirit in the orthodox concept of the Trinity. The spirit is capable of being sensed; it goes beyond the physical. Just as I can sense when my wife is near me; even more strongly can I sense the presence of the Holy Spirit. I recognize immediately when he is present. At other times, his presence is more in the background while other times he is front and center; he pervades all present.

How does the Spirit/spirit do this? I have no clue; do you know how God is God? For me, he just IS. Why does the Holy Spirit have a spiritual body rather than a physical body as the Father and Son have? God has never told any of us why this is so. Some may speculate, but no accepted revelation is known. Why does the resurrection demand that our spirits reunite with our bodies? The LDS Church has a degree of theology on that topic, but it is completely without thought among other Christians. For some reason, we just need a physical body in the eternities is the best other Christians can come up with.

The LDS Church teaches that the Holy Spirit is the teacher of all truth; he reveals and confirms all truth to all people. At no time does the Holy Spirit confirm the truth of 50 conflicting teachings. Your example above is nonsensical and is not LDS doctrine or teaching. Can the Holy Spirit testify to the truth to fifty different people at the same time? Of course, just as he did on the day of Pentecost so he can testify today.

Based upon the fact that the Holy Spirit is a spirit and that he can be our constant companion, exactly what is confusing at that statement? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit cannot be a constant companion? Or are you saying there is no such thing as the Gift of the Holy Ghost? I gather you do not have a handle on LDS doctrine; thus you are confused about our teachings, best not condemn them before you understand them.

[CV75]

Sounds like an odd question

Sounds like a reasonable question to me!

The pre-mortal Jesus was a member of the Godhead before He came to earth with a mortal body.

For all we know, in addition to the sunshine analogy, the Holy Ghost is moving so fast relative to us (or vice-versa) that He is effectively everywhere at once. Either way, He can be with 50 people telling them 50 different things at the same time and still radiate truth. Here's a speculation for you: He may preside over any number of "guardian / administering" spirits that deliver His benefits by delegated authority, with omniscience supported by a Urim and Thummim of sorts (see a few paragraphs below).

D&C 121:45-46 pertains to our blessings in this life as well as the next: “Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven. The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.”

The Holy Ghost can be our constant companion. The "unchanging scepter" is the priesthood of God, with which I am entrusted as long as I am worthy. The "everlasting dominion" is my stewardship within that priesthood, including the roles of husband and father. In exaltation, this dominion flows and increases forever and ever.

The Holy Ghost is at least our constant companion in this life. The Gift of the Holy Ghost (and I suppose this applies to His constant companionship as well) was not operative while Christ was on the earth (see http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/h/56). Extending this idea to conditions in the celestial kingdom--the presence of Christ and the Father, possession of white stone (D&C 130:10-11), life on a great Urim and Thummim (D&C 130:9), etc.—speculate that the gift and constant companionship may again become unnecessary.

It makes sense to me that Holy Ghost will eventually obtain a physical body as well, but that is speculation also.

[Ahab]

However, I believe the Church discourages its members from speculating about the issue of the Holy Ghost receiving a body.

I think the reason the (our) Church (leaders) discourage us from speculating about the issue of the Holy Ghost receiving a body, or from speculating on any other issue, is because they realize that when other people hear us speculating they wonder why we don't know everything and instead have so many personal thoughts and opinions on some subjects when God could just clear up every single issue we don't know everything about to help us know everything God knows about everything.

But then that's just my own speculation about why our leaders don't want us to go around speculating.

[CV75]

But then that's just my own speculation about why our leaders don't want us to go around speculating.

Here's some more: when we begin to take our speculation too seriously or as revelation, teach it with vigor or present it as truth, or act on it with unwearingness, we are heading toward apostasy.

[LeSellers]

Sounds like an odd question, I suppose. Let me explain why I ask. LDS seem to believe that the Father and Son both have physical bodies. LDS seem to believe having a physical body is part of the exaltation process. But LDS seem to also think that the Holy Spirit does not have a physical body.

Right on all counts here. Father has a body as tangible as man’s, but while we are “enlivened” by blood, His (and Christ’s) body is filled with spirit. We distinguish between these “states” by the phrases “flesh and blood” (us) and “flesh and bone” (Them).

Somehow the Holy Spirit is considered part of the LDS Godhead. I have heard a few missionaries make analogies that the Holy Spirit, in some respects, is like the Sun... radiating the light of truth. This answer has usually come when I asked, "How can the HS be in more than one place at one time?" Perhaps this something LDS believe is some sort of "advantage" to only having a spiritual body and being part of the Godhead at the same time. I am not completely certain but this seems to be some general premise I have heard repeated a few times.

His influence is transmitted by means of a different kind of spirit, a type that permeates the universe. It is, I believe, the origin of the old, famously disproven, and apostate notion of the “ether”. It is the medium through which His influence (and that thing we call “the Light of Christ” which is given to all men) reaches and affects us.

The thought I am left with is that LDS seem to believe that the Holy Spirit radiates truth to all, but then he can also be with you specifically at points. Can he specifically be with 50 people telling them 50 different things at the same time and still radiate truth? Don't feel compelled to answer, it was more rhetorical than anything, just wondering about the fact that LDS believe the Gift of the Holy Ghost is a guarantee of his companionship and how that works.

He cannot be in two places at once. However, because He does not have mass (as we measure it, in any case), He can move instantaneously between people. In addition, His influence is also (quasi?) instantaneous, so He does not need to inhabit our bodied for more than a tiny fragment of time to impart the light and truth he would grant. So, even though He is not in two places at one time, we might perceive it so.

LDS look at the Holy Spirit in a different way than I do, in a number of respects. Of any subject, I think the Holy Spirit epistemology of LDS is the one topic I find the most confusing.

We do have a greater grasp of these ideas, ‘tis true.

I suppose the main thing is given the fact LDS believe the Holy Spirit doesn't have a physical body and also given D&C 121:46.

With language like "unchanging" and "forever and ever" this doesn't sound like the HG's role changes in the future.

The role, no. The Person Who fulfills that role, undoubtedly will progress. We had an earlier topic where we discussed the idea of there being (or having been) many Persons who filled the “calling” of the Holy Ghost. I am ignorant of the specifics of this, but I tend to believe that all three of the Members of the Godhead are such because They hold special Priesthood ordinations. It is by the power of the Priesthood that God created the universe, and by it He has done all the things we attribute to Him; i.e., the Priesthood makes Him God. It is similar with the Son: His role is a Priesthood role, and it is by the Priesthood that He performs his labors and fulfills His duties. These roles are permanent—the Father is always the Father; the Son, forever the Son.

The Holy Ghost is also, in this view, a Priesthood calling. It may be temporary, like a member of the third quorum of the Seventy, but I am not making that claim definitively. As I said, I don’t know.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

it is possible Adam, Enoch, Noah, Moses, Peter, and Joseph Smith all were once the Holy Ghost.

I doubt Adam was for a couple of reasons.

Most importantly, he was the first mortal, so there was no one to whom he could have been a witness, testator, etc., until after his own death a thousand years after his creation. Secondly, there would have been no period for which this "training" would have served, his having aleady served his probation.

Lehi

[altersteve]

I believe it was Orson Pratt who said that Joseph Smith was never the Holy Ghost. He said that idea "should be rejected by every Saint." I don't remember where I read that, though.

[mfbukowski]

Mudcat

The simple reality is that we don't know the answers to these questions.

Many have their own theories and ideas, myself included, but there is very little doctrine in this area. Fortunately as LDS we are more concerned about "orthopraxis" and living our lives as directed by the Spirit than we are in speculating about him.

For once we can say with our Catholic brothers and sisters, "it's a mystery" and leave it at that!

Edited September 20, 2011 by mfbukowski

[Mudcat]

Hi Mudcat!

This is a great question, as I would guess that many LDS have wondered this same thing. There is another thread that was discussing whether or not the Holy Ghost is actually a calling. I haven't even read any of it, so I don't know if your OP might be addressed there.

Hi Jo!

Thanks for the response, I haven't been able to give the thread much attention today, but it seems that there are a number of views that have been offered on the topic and I appreciate yours. This seems to be an area of speculation for LDS.

I read a bit of the "calling" thread, though I didn't follow it heavily. It was somewhat inspirational to my OP. Though there were other thoughts bouncing round with that.

Seems you aren't the only poster who views the Holy Spirit as a job title of sorts and at some point the current Holy Spirit will get a body progress on and so forth. I can certainly see how this fits the LDS paradigm in some respects, but I think there is possibly a dilemma such a view might create.

Let me toss out what I see as possibly problematic and perhaps you and any others who seem agreeable to your general position could tell me if there is an underlying resolution.

If we assume the Holy Spirit doesn't have a physical body because somehow the lack of physicality actually helps the Holy Spirit do what he does in a better way. Such as being able to be a constant companion to many simultaneously. And we also assume that at some point the Holy Spirit will progress to higher position in which he has a body. Then it seems to me that there a possible issues with this rationale.

For one, it would seem that the Holy Spirit is actually less than fully exalted, but some how he is part of the Godhead anyways. I can't quite get my head around that one for certain.

Also, I would think this view creates a logical dilemma of sorts in regards to the Gift of the Holy Ghost. This gift seems to referenced with an eternal nature to it. If you have been given it, do your best and so forth then you will always have the Holy Spirits constant companionship. But if the Holy Spirit progressed by the gaining of a physical body then would this actually be possible for the Holy Spirit to maintain such a gift.

I suppose if you looked at it like a calling, then the next one would maintain the commitments of the previous or perhaps the Gift of the Holy Ghost is something LDS think you could eventually grow out of a need for, in an eternal sense. I dunno...just some of my speculation.

Regards,

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

I personally believe that the Holy Ghost is a calling, like 2nd counselor in a bishopric. Its purpose is to train leaders for important positions in morality. So, it is possible Adam, Enoch, Noah, Moses, Peter, and Joseph Smith all were once the Holy Ghost. They learned leadership in a very important position. As mortal prophets, the experience their own spirits had obtained would be an innate part of them, even through the veil of forgetfulness. In this way, there can always be a Holy Ghost who is a spirit, while allowing each to also have his time to obtain a body in mortality and progress into the eternities.

Hi Rameumptom,

Thanks for your thoughts. Bold mine. This is a new one for me.

Do you believe these stints of service as the Holy Ghost were before Peter and so forth lived or were they after. Also, is there something you have read that solidifies this concept?

While the Holy Ghost is an individual, his influence and power spreads forth. Is it possible that he uses others in his work? Most likely. Nephi noted that the angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. We also find that the Light of Christ is the essential power of God that flows through the universe, and is a power that is harnessed by the Holy Spirit to accomplish his work.

That was an interesting answer to my rhetorical. Thanks.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

edit add

@ ALL

Thanks for your input on this issue so far. I will try and finish responding this evening if I have some more time.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Mudcat

[zerinus]

If my memory serves me right, there is a statement by Joseph Smith somewhere to the effect that the Holy Ghost will some day experience a mortal prbation and acquire a physical body.

A discussion of the Holy Ghost is complicated by the fact that it is used in the scriptures with two different meanings: It is used to refer to that Spirit which proceeds or emanates from the presence of God, and "fills the immensity of space" (D&C 88:6-13), and also to refer to the "personage of Spirit" which constitutes the third member of the Godhead (D&C 130:22); and it is not always clear which it is being applied to. The difficulty is compounded by the fact that several synonyms are used in the scriptures for either Spirit, including Holy Spirit, Spirit of Truth, Spirit of God etc.; and it is not always clear which is which. So when the Holy Ghost is read somewhere in the scriptures, it may not always mean what we might think it means.

Edited September 20, 2011 by zerinus

[Maidservant]

I do make a distinction between the Holy Ghost and the spirit/the Spirit (but still thinking through all that at times). The Holy Ghost is definitely a personage. The Spirit radiates from or at least through, all personages, including ourselves (if we have it, use it, keep ourselves worthy of it, listen to it) etc. I don't know if I am right on this, but this is where I am at so far in understanding what I have been taught and in contemplating the kinds of questions you raise.

***************************************************************************************

The insights I am going to bring up are thoughts for all of us, LDS too, although it may not say directly at OP, but an investigation as to why we even have the idea of the Holy Ghost floating around in our religious consciousness. This is for my benefit too, as I felt I could use an appeal to the basics. I cannot in a post survey all the verses and contexts and come up with a unified idea, but even a few verses can show what kinds of questions arise and what kind of parameters we are dealing with.

In a brief search in the LDS scriptures edition Topical Guide (an index for the Bible, Book of Mormon, D & C, and PofGP), the word Holy Ghost does not arrive until the New Testament. (as one point to make) (although perhaps some synonymous ideas, but will skip for now)

I would be curious as to the Greek word(s) upon which the term Holy Ghost is used in the New Testament, and if there is some other alternative or insight that can be had by another possible translation or word(s) to use. As in, why King James English speakers felt fine with saying "ghost" (for example).

And, funnily enough, there is nothing like starting off with Matthew 1:18 "she was found with child of the Holy Ghost". If you take that verse as it is plain, then you have quite a few definite parameters, such as the one where the Holy Ghost is capable of reproduction. Of course, both LDS and Evangelicals have ways of un-explaining that in connection with the totality of the ideas presented in the scriptures. Many of which I would personally agree with. But the English is pretty plain. Also one could make arguments about text transmission or paradigm transmission (i.e. the need for a miraculous myth for a birth). But if you are just asking yourself what the Holy Ghost IS, and then read this verse, then it's pretty plain and simple.

Then you have Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Here you have an instruction to go, teach and baptize. There is a form here for baptizing, and that is "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". While one would tend to think that all three of those names correspond with a reality (of what kind?), nevertheless in this verse it is only presented as a verbal ritual. Or is it? In fact, it does not say to baptize in the nameS of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost . . . it says name (singular). That verbal ritual is One Name. So in this verse it actually presents a ritual that is meant to have a mystery in it, so there is nothing that says what the Holy Ghost is except to entice us to know more what it could mean.

Mark 12:36 "For David himself said by the Holy Ghost" here we have Jesus teaching about what we now call the Old Testament. When Jesus talks on David and the Holy Ghost, is he reading something into David's experience from his own paradigm that was never there? Or is he more correctly or more fully understanding David's experience according to some reality that is always there but maybe different ages understood it differently? (or both). In any case, we have David speaking or writing by the Holy Ghost. So we have a Holy Ghost that can have an effect on our thinking and believing and the subsequent expressions of our thoughts and beliefs. There is no mechanics offered in this verse, just an end result. Of course, as we know, in our world, persons have mutual effect on one anothers' thoughts and belief through spoken or written language. In fact, are there other ways to change thinking? (Probably . . . chemicals and electricities change thoughts and beliefs). So there is a wide range here of what the Holy Ghost could be, just that he has an effect upon one's thinking to be able to understand or access the truth (as seemed to be the case with David as presented by Jesus).

Anyway. A long study could proceed in this manner.

[Storm Rider]

I am stunned to read some of the outlandish speculation that goes on about the a member of the Godhead. However, it seems pretty typical for those outside the Church to ignore everything except the outlandish. No need to wonder where anti-Mormon get their silliness from!

The Holy Spirit was God before the foundation of the world just as Jesus was. Just as Jesus was unique among the children of God the Father, so was the Holy Spriit. He is and always will be a member of the Godhead.

[jo1952]

Hi Jo!

Thanks for the response, I haven't been able to give the thread much attention today, but it seems that there are a number of views that have been offered on the topic and I appreciate yours. This seems to be an area of speculation for LDS.</p>

I read a bit of the "calling" thread, though I didn't follow it heavily. It was somewhat inspirational to my OP. Though there were other thoughts bouncing round with that.

Seems you aren't the only poster who views the Holy Spirit as a job title of sorts and at some point the current Holy Spirit will get a body progress on and so forth. I can certainly see how this fits the LDS paradigm in some respects, but I think there is possibly a dilemma such a view might create.

Let me toss out what I see as possibly problematic and perhaps you and any others who seem agreeable to your general position could tell me if there is an underlying resolution.

If we assume the Holy Spirit doesn't have a physical body because somehow the lack of physicality actually helps the Holy Spirit do what he does in a better way. Such as being able to be a constant companion to many simultaneously. And we also assume that at some point the Holy Spirit will progress to higher position in which he has a body. Then it seems to me that there a possible issues with this rationale.

Hi Mudcat!

Yes, we can only speculate because little has been made known to us as to exactly how the Holy Ghost does what He does. This does not concern me, however, as compared to all that there IS to know of ALL Truth, my understanding is limited in the flesh. The veil keeps things well hidden from us; otherwise, we wouldn't be walking in faith would we? So, I am left with my reasoning skills about many matters (which to others may not seem as reasonable as their skills are).

Your questions shadow my own about this particular matter. Since I have already gone through this exercise in my own mind, I am able to share where my thoughts have led me. I would like to add that I am greedily reading the thoughts of others in this thread since my own are not fixed in concrete.

Now, inasmuch as we believe that both the Father and the Son have glorified bodies making both their body and their spirit a permanent Being, it IS tricky to contemplate HOW the Holy Ghost accomplishes His mission/calling (let alone how Father or Son really look like as Beings)....this is all still part of the unknown to me in my current state of existence. We simply cannot comprehend the true reality of the Power and Majesty and Glory of God the Father or His Son or the Holy Ghost. We CAN deal with what we perceive from our own perspective of what is real.

I am drawn to the speculation that the Holy Ghost (as a calling), is a permanent calling which exists eternally. However, I believe that this calling exists as a title. Along with this title come all of the Powers and Authorities which come from the Father which are connected to this particular title. I am sure you have heard the LDS talk about the mantel of authority which comes with a calling. I think perhaps that this may be how things works with the Holy Ghost. If, for instance, this is NOT a calling, then the Holy Ghost would be a Creation which is different from all other creations (here I am speaking of the organization of our intelligences). Being in the very nature of a spirit, I have trouble seeing that this particular spirit would never be able to progress eternally from His present estate to another state of Being. This in no way diminishes the current Power and Authority given to Him by the Father. Yet, at the end of the day, if His existence is permanently that of a spirit (even WITH the Power and Authority He now enjoys), He is still limited. He would be unable to fulfill the same measure of creation which the rest of the organized intelligences are given the chance to do.

This is WHY I then speculate that, just as with other callings, His time of service within the calling of Holy Ghost, will have a limit. At that time, another spirit will receive the title of Holy Ghost. Effectively, therefore, there will always be a Holy Ghost. It just seemed to be a natural step to then believe that as this world reaches the end of its physical time, at which point our world becomes glorified, this could be a logical time for one spirit to be releaved of His responsibility. In this way, He would then receive the opportunity to participate in another world's physical existence during which He would then be able to obtain a physical body, and be able to progress.

For one, it would seem that the Holy Spirit is actually less than fully exalted, but some how he is part of the Godhead anyways. I can't quite get my head around that one for certain.

I think that your belief in The Trinity could certainly cause some confusion. The LDS believe that actual Exaltation is being able to live in Father's presence AFTER we are resurrected and have received a glorified body. We also believe that BEFORE we come to earth to receive a physical body, that our spirit lives in Father's presence even though our spiritual being/existence is only in spirit form. Exaltation is a form of being which unites our spirit with a glorified, immortal, physical body. Therefore, for the Holy Ghost to be able to be in the presence of Father without a glorified body, and thus enable Him to be a part of the Godhead, is NOT contradictory.

Also, I would think this view creates a logical dilemma of sorts in regards to the Gift of the Holy Ghost. This gift seems to referenced with an eternal nature to it. If you have been given it, do your best and so forth then you will always have the Holy Spirits constant companionship. But if the Holy Spirit progressed by the gaining of a physical body then would this actually be possible for the Holy Spirit to maintain such a gift.

To this I would offer further speculation in that once we have been resurrected and received a glorified body, it seems that we will KNOW of a surety (therefore, we will not be believing in accordance with faith any longer), that Father is Father, and that Jesus IS the Christ. Hence, being in the state of a glorified Being, we would no longer NEED the Holy Ghost. The Bible teaches us that the Holy Ghost is the witness on the EARTH. Once the earth has been glorified from its physical to permanent spiritual state, it seems the role of the Holy Ghost will have been fulfilled for this earth.

I suppose if you looked at it like a calling, then the next one would maintain the commitments of the previous or perhaps the Gift of the Holy Ghost is something LDS think you could eventually grow out of a need for, in an eternal sense. I dunno...just some of my speculation.

In further speculation....only inasmuch as the calling for Holy Ghost would have been fulfilled for THIS earth. However, inasmuch as we believe that there are worlds without end, there will ALWAYS be a Holy Ghost. Thus, the position of Holy Ghost IS eternal and without end.

Best regards,

jo

Edited September 21, 2011 by jo1952

[ERayR]

Mudcat, without reading clear through the thread let me toss in my perspective. An important LDS concept is that of eternal progression. I assume that will take different forms at different times along this eternal timeline. My perception is that at any one point we will be progressing in areas that we need to, to become like God. How that would fit in this instance I don't know. I just haven't given it much thought.

Edited September 21, 2011 by ERayR

[Calm]

Here's some more: when we begin to take our speculation too seriously or as revelation, teach it with vigor or present it as truth, or act on it with unwearingness, we are heading toward apostasy.

Speculation can also lead to trivializing and thus to disrespect. For example, I see it as potentially problematic that those who view the Holy Ghost as a 'calling' which different individuals fulfill at times as being somewhat less grateful for and awed by what may be in its way almost as a great of a sacrifice (only lacking in the possibility that it is not infinite) as Christ's.

It is something that I appreciate about the LDS understanding of the Godhead---each member has made a sacrifice beyond our comprehension for Man's good.

Edited September 21, 2011 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

error- deleted

Edited September 21, 2011 by mfbukowski

[Mudcat]

I am a little confused by your use of D&C 121:46: "The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant ^acompanion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of ^brighteousness and truth; and thy ^cdominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever."

Sorry for the confusion Storm Rider. I think I understand, at least in a cursory sense, what LDS mean by the Gift of the Holy Ghost. I was looking for something within the Standard Works that affirmed such. This verse in the D&C seemed fairly to the point, but if there is a better citation that explains it I am certainly all ears.

This scripture's context is that if we use the priesthood wisely, i.e. that we are valiant in our service to others and in a capacity of presidency filled in a Christ-like manner, THEN will the Holy Ghost be our constant companion (a re-statement of the promise of the Gift of the Holy Ghost). The balance of the verse is for the individual and does not address the Holy Spirit.

I don't wish to debate you on the matter. Could you offer me the actual statement of the promise of the Gift of the Holy Ghost that LDS perceive?

Hopefully I haven't created to much confusion.

It is not appropriate to state, "somehow". It is much stronger than that, the Holy Spirit is the third member of the Godhead. It is not questioned anymore than the presence of the Holy Spirit in the orthodox concept of the Trinity. The spirit is capable of being sensed; it goes beyond the physical. Just as I can sense when my wife is near me; even more strongly can I sense the presence of the Holy Spirit. I recognize immediately when he is present. At other times, his presence is more in the background while other times he is front and center; he pervades all present.

Bold mine, Storm Rider. No offense intended by the "somehow". I understand you say that the Holy Spirit's role goes unquestioned. I for one don't quite understand it though, given the LDS paradigm.

I agree that the presence of the Holy Spirit goes beyond physical sensory perceptions. But to simply be aware of a presence.. like that of the presence of the Holy Spirit does not necessarily entail a complete knowledge of the Holy Spirit. To take it down a notch, because I sense the presence of my wife.. or you sense yours, this doesn't mean we know exactly what they are.

How does the Spirit/spirit do this? I have no clue; do you know how God is God? For me, he just IS. Why does the Holy Spirit have a spiritual body rather than a physical body as the Father and Son have? God has never told any of us why this is so. Some may speculate, but no accepted revelation is known. Why does the resurrection demand that our spirits reunite with our bodies? The LDS Church has a degree of theology on that topic, but it is completely without thought among other Christians. For some reason, we just need a physical body in the eternities is the best other Christians can come up with.

Bold mine. That is a bit of pejorative towards other Christians "best" explanation, IMO. The notion that Christ is the first fruit of the resurrection and as his brothers and sisters, that we will follow suit, seems a fair explanation.

Certainly the CoJCoLDS offers it's explanations as to the need for a physical body, but given the speculation on the Holy Spirit perhaps one day having a body and your disapproval of such speculation. I think it would be fair to say that LDS do have good internal reasons to think they will have bodies.. but that isn't the question. More to the point is why the Holy Spirit spirit might or might not need one in the future.

The LDS Church teaches that the Holy Spirit is the teacher of all truth; he reveals and confirms all truth to all people. At no time does the Holy Spirit confirm the truth of 50 conflicting teachings. Your example above is nonsensical and is not LDS doctrine or teaching. Can the Holy Spirit testify to the truth to fifty different people at the same time? Of course, just as he did on the day of Pentecost so he can testify today.

Bold mine. This word "conflicting" is yours not mine Storm Rider, so don't attribute to me.

My word, if you will reread the OP was "different" not "conflicting"... and there is a difference in the terms.

But you seem combative about it, so let me try to explain a bit further. I'll use 2 instead of 50 brevity.

Sister A believes the Holy Spirit prompted her to help an abused wife to seek safety for herself and family, at the same time Brother B believes the Holy Spirit has prompted him to help people in Haiti by installing a water purification system. Does that make more sense, and if so, do you think such simultaneous revelation is actually possible?

Based upon the fact that the Holy Spirit is a spirit and that he can be our constant companion, exactly what is confusing at that statement? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit cannot be a constant companion? Or are you saying there is no such thing as the Gift of the Holy Ghost?

Bold mine. To answer, given your statement then there is nothing confusing in the least. However, there are certainly more issues at play than your statement that stretch well beyond the confines of it's parameters.

As to your other two questions.

On the first, from my own perspective I certainly agree that the Holy Spirit is within the heart of the believer.

As to your second, I certainly believe in the Gift of the Holy Ghost, though I do believe differently about such a thing than LDS seem to.

I gather you do not have a handle on LDS doctrine; thus you are confused about our teachings, best not condemn them before you understand them.

Seems you are satisfied with your conclusions here. I don't plan on mounting a defense against them.... what would be the point in that.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Mudcat

[jo1952]

Hi Mudcat,

Don't know if this will be helpful or not:

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/What_about_the_Holy_Ghost.html (emphasis added)

But we do have at least some light to follow from the Church in forming our own hypotheses. For instance, Joseph Smith said that, "The Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and is waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did."[Joseph Smith, Encyclopedia of Joseph Smith's Teachings, edited by Larry E. Dahl and Donald Q. Cannon (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1997)]

Furthermore, "The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has." (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; Sabbath address, Nauvoo, 27 August 1843. Reported by Franklin D. Richards.) What is it that the Holy Ghost should perform righteously? The LDS Church teaches that the Holy Ghost performs a necessary function for the salvation of mankind, primarily as a revelator. The Holy Ghost serves as a sanctifier, a teacher and revelator. These functions would be impossible to perform if He were a tangible body.

Regards,

jo