Physical Body

[Flyonthewall]

The Spirit Body thread got me to wondering...If in mainstream Christianity the belief is that God is a spirit sans physical body, what would be the purpose of us having a body? We have a spirit, why would we need a physical body?

What would be the need of a resurrection? If God is perfect as a spirit, why would we need a body after death? Doesn't God want us to be like Him? Is the resurrection limiting us?

[altersteve]

Is this question directed towards Mormons or non-Mormons? As far as I'm aware, non-LDS Christians don't believe that God wants us to be "like Him" the same way Latter-day Saints do. They believe that having a body would limit God, whereas Latter-day Saints believe that not having a body is bondage.

Edited September 14, 2011 by altersteve

[Flyonthewall]

Is this question directed towards Mormons or non-Mormons? As far as I'm aware, non-LDS Christians don't believe that God wants us to be "like Him" the same way Latter-day Saints do. They believe that having a body would limit God, whereas Latter-day Saints believe that not having a body is bondage.

It is curiosity about non-LDS beliefs. I am hoping there are enough non-LDS that can answer, or perhaps enough understanding of non-LDS teachings...

To me, physical bodies in mortality are kind of an oddity if God is a spirit...and the resurrection just plain doesn't fit.

Surely, there are explainations

[i8theFruit]

Man are that they might have joy. It is joy to be in a physical body, to eat, to swim, to do so many things a spirit can not do. God created Heaven (a physical place) and created his body to go there, to enjoy himself. We, his children, also wanted to go, but he knew if he was to give us all bodies, and let us into his Heaven, there would be many sinners. Basically Heaven would be like earth, because the sensations and responsibilities of having a body is to overwhelming. This is why we were sent to this earth, and why there is a plan of salvation (or test). For Heaven to be as wonderful as it is, God needs to weed out the ones who can not handle a body.

Think of the Adam and Eve story as a parable for what i'm trying to say (what mormons believe)

[BCSpace]

It's a difficult conundrum for a trinitarian. The Bible defines death as the separation of the spirit and the body. The Bible also says Jesus died only once or will not die anymore. So Jesus, who is God, has an inseparable physical body now by definition. The only way to get out of it is to admit that the trinitarian God is an abstraction and that Jesus is not a God (Oops! We now have a plurality of Gods) without this abstraction to define him.

[Rob Osborn]

Most of Christianity believes God only has a spirit because they generally do not think things out. Most "christians" are that by name only, having no real church they attend every week nor doctrine they know much about. This very thing was brought up recently by my mother-inlaw who is "christian" but belongs to no denomination (most christian Americans fall into this category). What I basically got out of the conversation was that she was only reporting that which she heard by-the-way without any real studying or logic.

[Hughes]

The Spirit Body thread got me to wondering...If in mainstream Christianity the belief is that God is a spirit sans physical body, what would be the purpose of us having a body? We have a spirit, why would we need a physical body?

What would be the need of a resurrection? If God is perfect as a spirit, why would we need a body after death? Doesn't God want us to be like Him? Is the resurrection limiting us?

First is to understand the nature of the infinite God. There can be only one infinite.

What is the purpose of us having a physical body? Well, it appears that God made things both physical and non-physical. Just as we are. We are both spirit and body. The body appears to be created to house the spirit.

God, of course wants us to be like him. But, never did this entail being "exactly" like him, with reference to his infinite nature, but his communicable attributes (Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Etc.).

And no the Trinity isn't a problem.

[altersteve]

First is to understand the nature of the infinite God. There can be only one infinite.

Nope. This is not supported by the Bible or by science. This is simply your own unsupported assertion which you have yet to explain adequately or provide evidence for. Infinite means never-ending. Obviously, we are all never-ending. So I think you are mistaking "infinite" with "eternal." They are different.

What is the purpose of us having a physical body? Well, it appears that God made things both physical and non-physical. Just as we are. We are both spirit and body. The body appears to be created to house the spirit.

Why does the spirit need a place to be housed in?

God, of course wants us to be like him. But, never did this entail being "exactly" like him, with reference to his infinite nature, but his communicable attributes (Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Etc.).

Then what does it mean, by your understanding, to be "like God"?

And no the Trinity isn't a problem.

Let's not get into this discussion again.

[Calm]

Well, it appears that God made things both physical and non-physical.  />

<br />The question is why?  Why did he make things both physical and nonphysical when he himself, the ultimate 'form', is only nonphysical?  Why bother at all with the physical?

If there is something about the spirit that requires a physical anchor, then how can God function without it?

Edited September 15, 2011 by calmoriah

[Calm]

o. They believe that having a body would limit God,

Which I do not understand, does having a house to live in limit us in any way or prevent us from doing or being anything, doesn't it just add additional abilities and opportunities to our lives?

God is said to be all powerful and yet he doesn't have the ability to smell a rose (or at least didn't prior to the incarnation of the Son)?

[changed]

This is my recent blog on physical bodies: http://thechristianconvert.blogspot.com/

"Spirits might sound ethereal and beautiful, but without a physical body, how can you give someone a hug? How could you do anything? Sure you could think and talk – but without a body, it would be all talk, and no action. Our bodies allow us to act – to do. It is an incredible blessing to be about to go out, and actually physically do something." and to actually physically be something.

you have to ask yourself, why were they so desperate to have some sort of a physical existence?

So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. - Matthew 8:31

they would rather be in the body of a pig, than to have no body at all...

I guess Satan and the fallen angels want to diminish the importance of our bodies - as they don't have them... sour grapes teachings?

Edited September 15, 2011 by changed

[Hughes]

Nope. This is not supported by the Bible or by science. This is simply your own unsupported assertion which you have yet to explain adequately or provide evidence for. Infinite means never-ending. Obviously, we are all never-ending. So I think you are mistaking "infinite" with "eternal." They are different.

Why does the spirit need a place to be housed in?

Then what does it mean, by your understanding, to be "like God"?

Let's not get into this discussion again.

Since all you are saying is that my assertions are wrong, and yours are right. I'll stick with mine, since you offered no refutation of them.

And no I'm not mistaking "infinite" for eternal. God is infinite in being. And by definition there could be only one, if he's infinite in being.

Why does a spirit need a place to be housed in? I'm not sure. It seems that it doesn't. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the lord..."

So, I'm thinking, that the word "need" isn't accurate.

What does it mean to be "like God?" Simply as Paul said, "let this mind be in you that was also in Christ Jesus" - Humility.

<br />The question is why?  Why did he make things both physical and nonphysical when he himself, the ultimate 'form', is only nonphysical?  Why bother at all with the physical?

If there is something about the spirit that requires a physical anchor, then how can God function without it?

You know these questions reflect our own limitations. I don't mean that as a criticism at all, it's something that I have thought about though. There may be many things we don't even know that God does, that he does, simply for his pleasure.

Take a Pulsar for example. It emits a radio frequency, among other things. Why create such a thing if no one hears it? Why create all those colors if no one sees them? Well, we know for certain that God does. And it demonstrates not only his creative power, but also his creative enjoyment. He obviously enjoys variety. But, with our limitations we can hardly imagine the levels of God's enjoyment of such far out things as pulsars or the myriad of other things going on that we aren't aware of.

What we are aware of is beauty, even if it's on just a smaller scale (infinitesimally smaller). And this enjoyment is derived from our physical attributes. Could this be why God created a physical world? I don't know.

[Storm Rider]

First is to understand the nature of the infinite God. There can be only one infinite.

What is the purpose of us having a physical body? Well, it appears that God made things both physical and non-physical. Just as we are. We are both spirit and body. The body appears to be created to house the spirit.

God, of course wants us to be like him. But, never did this entail being "exactly" like him, with reference to his infinite nature, but his communicable attributes (Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Etc.).

And no the Trinity isn't a problem.

1. The only purpose of a physcial body is to house the spirit? That does not seem logical given that you believe that God's spirit does not need a body to house it. Is this physical construct for no other purpose than to house the spirit? What of death, is the spirit harmed by being separated from the physcial body?

2. I assume God wants us to be like him, but I have never seen any prohibition by God that he would not make us like him in every way? There has never been any limitation in scripture when we are told we are gods or that joint-heirs with Jesus. Is there some other force that prevents God from making us so or is it something else?

3. I have never seen any explanation as to the need for a body in the eternities. In fact, just the opposite I have read within Christianity how bad the physical body is, yet we will have one in the eternities, why?

[Calm]

You know these questions reflect our own limitations. I don't mean that as a criticism at all, it's something that I have thought about though. There may be many things we don't even know that God does, that he does, simply for his pleasure./>

I have no problem with 'I don't know' as an answer. However, if one doesn't know then it does seem problematic to exclude other possibilities.

[mbh26]

Man are that they might have joy. It is joy to be in a physical body, to eat, to swim, to do so many things a spirit can not do.

It's hard to say since we're not allowed to remember what it was like to be without a physical body. Reading Lance Richardson's NDE gives a different perspective than what I previously had on what a spirit body is capable of doing. It's also hard to say because we don't have perfect physical bodies now. It seems like most people who were close to dead were pretty happy in the spirit state compared to the physical state.

[Flyonthewall]

<br />The question is why? Why did he make things both physical and nonphysical when he himself, the ultimate 'form', is only nonphysical? Why bother at all with the physical?

If there is something about the spirit that requires a physical anchor, then how can God function without it?

This is the question I am curious about. Is there a reason given by non-LDS as to why, if God is a non-physical being, why the physical world? And...If God, as a spirit can function without a physical body, and we have a spirit housed in this mortal body...why is the resurrection needed at all? Wouldn't the separation of our physical body and our spirit be what we want...to not be saddled with physical limitations?

[Hughes]

1. The only purpose of a physcial body is to house the spirit? That does not seem logical given that you believe that God's spirit does not need a body to house it. Is this physical construct for no other purpose than to house the spirit? What of death, is the spirit harmed by being separated from the physcial body?

2. I assume God wants us to be like him, but I have never seen any prohibition by God that he would not make us like him in every way? There has never been any limitation in scripture when we are told we are gods or that joint-heirs with Jesus. Is there some other force that prevents God from making us so or is it something else?

3. I have never seen any explanation as to the need for a body in the eternities. In fact, just the opposite I have read within Christianity how bad the physical body is, yet we will have one in the eternities, why?

1. I don't think I said, "only purpose" is to house the spirit. It certainly appears that's how God choose to create us, so we (our spirit) could interact with the physical world around us. You don't think it seems logical given that the God the father doesn't have a body (in non-LDS views), yet is a spirit without a body.

First, you're right. It doesn't seem logical. However, I see no evidence in the scripture that God the father has a body, so logical or not, it is what it is. With our limited understanding of the infinite nature of God, what may seem illogical now, will make sense when we see him. I would point out that many things don't seem logical to the natural mind. "The first will be last...."

"Death" means separation. And when we die, we separate from our body, and it's my opinion that it doesn't harm the spirit, if we trust in Christ. For non-believers it will be a rude awakening.

2. IF God is an infinite being, how many infinite beings can there be?

Your statement, "make us like him in every way..." comes from where? I don't see this statement in the Biblical text.

3. You've read how bad the physical body is? What do you mean by that statement?

As to why would we need a resurrected body in Heaven... well, I don't know that I can answer the question, but it seems to me that a body (here and in the future) allows our spirit to interact with our surroundings, as God originally designed us to do in the Garden. Why a body though? Why not just a spirit? It's a good question, and I don't think I have a good answer.

One idea is that since we are "a little lower than the angels" if we didn't have a body, and were simply a spirit, we'd be just like the angels.

[Rob Bowman]

BCSpace,

You wrote:

It's a difficult conundrum for a trinitarian. The Bible defines death as the separation of the spirit and the body. The Bible also says Jesus died only once or will not die anymore. So Jesus, who is God, has an inseparable physical body now by definition. The only way to get out of it is to admit that the trinitarian God is an abstraction and that Jesus is not a God (Oops! We now have a plurality of Gods) without this abstraction to define him.

Will you please stop bearing false witness against your Trinitarian neighbors? We do not believe that God is an abstraction! I have called you on this misrepresentation twice, so now it is clearly deliberate.

There is no difficulty or conundrum in the orthodox view of human nature. God created us specifically to be physical creatures who reflect and represent his character and will in this physical world. To be what God created us to be, we need to be resurrected with immortal bodies. Jesus Christ is indeed God, and he became a man in order to redeem us from sin and death so that we might become perfect human beings with immortality. It was an amazing act of grace and condescension for the Son of God to incarnate himself permanently as one of us so that he might give us his righteousness and immortality. Far from being a problem for orthodox theology, this truth is at the very core and heart of what we believe.

[Rob Bowman]

calmoriah,

Let me clear up this common misunderstanding about God having a body being a limitation. The correct understanding of the orthodox position is not that it would somehow diminish God's attributes if he were to take on bodily form. We believe that God did just that in the Incarnation. The orthodox position is that the idea that God's essential nature necessarily includes that he is embodied limits his personal, direct presence to the location of that body. In short, it denies God's omnipresence. The doctrine of the Incarnation does not do this because it teaches that Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son, has two natures: deity, which is omnipresent, and humanity, which is not. The eternal Son of God is omnipresent (e.g., Matt. 18:20; 28:20), but his physical body is not. Furthermore, the doctrine that God the Father had a physical body even before he became a God is part of a larger theological scenario that conflicts with orthodox theology in several ways (e.g., by denying that God has always been God).

Asking how God can be all-powerful and yet not be able to "smell a rose" misunderstands the nature of omnipotence. The doctrine of divine omnipotence does not mean that God can do the nonsensical or self-contradictory, or that he can do something inconsistent with his nature. It means that all power derives from God and that God can and does accomplish all that he purposes to do. It would be inconsistent with God's nature for him to lie, because it is contrary to God's moral nature. It would be inconsistent with God's nature for his divine being to feel the sensation of thirst, because God's being is not dependent on water for its survival or good. It would also be inconsistent with God's nature for his divine being to experience the sensation of smell, since that sensation is dependent on having air particles carrying specific chemicals from the rose to enter one's nose. However, God in his omniscience knows everything there is to know about water, thirst, roses, odors, and smelling, far more than we can ever know, and he appreciates and takes delight in his creation (Gen. 1:31). Furthermore, God has become incarnate in Jesus Christ, and in that way experienced thirst (John 19:28) and other physical sensations that are natural to human beings--hunger, tiredness, pain and many more, both pleasant and unpleasant, including smells (of both types). Since Christ is eternal deity, he has always known what those experiences feel like, though he experienced them temporally only when he became human. But there are still some things that God will never personally experience, even though he knows everything about them; for example, God will never carry a baby in the womb or experience the sensation of being a trout in a stream. But we do not view these things as "limitations" that in any way diminish God's perfection or his omnipotence.

[Vance]

In short, it denies God's omnipresence.

Right, and you must dogmatically defend "omnipresence".

The problem I see with this dogmatic approach is that it renders numerous statements of Jesus as deceptive and misleading.

Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

. . .

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

. . .

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matt. 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

. . .

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Matt. 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

. . .

21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of MY Father which is in heaven.

Matt. 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

. . .

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matt. 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matt. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Matt. 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

. . .

14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

. . .

19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Matt. 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

. . .

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

. . .

36 ¶ But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

. . .

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

. . .

18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

. . .

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

. . .

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

. . .

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

. . .

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1 Jn. 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Vance

[CV75]

Since Christ is eternal deity, he has always known what those experiences feel like, though he experienced them temporally only when he became human. But there are still some things that God will never personally experience, even though he knows everything about them; for example, God will never carry a baby in the womb or experience the sensation of being a trout in a stream. But we do not view these things as "limitations" that in any way diminish God's perfection or his omnipotence.

If this were true, He would not need a body. His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane, death on the cross and resurrection would be unnecessary as He would have known, suffered for and overcome sin and death without the bother of a mortal body.

Or does this mean God possesses an incorporeal “virtual” omniscience with which He knows about all things and an “actual” omniscience with which He knows all things once He possesses a body?

Personally, I think He does know what it is like to carry a baby or swim like a trout, and I think such "empathy" is a function of His having a body. Christ experienced everything a physically and spiritually fallen world has to offer in His infinite suffering.

[Jesterss]

Most of Christianity believes God only has a spirit because they generally do not think things out. Most "christians" are that by name only, having no real church they attend every week nor doctrine they know much about. This very thing was brought up recently by my mother-inlaw who is "christian" but belongs to no denomination (most christian Americans fall into this category). What I basically got out of the conversation was that she was only reporting that which she heard by-the-way without any real studying or logic.

The same could be said about most mormons. My wife, my brother-in-law, his wife, my mother-in-law, both of my other sister-in-laws. Out of the bunch of 10, they all refer me to only 1 of them to discuss the mormon/biblical belief system...

They, nor your mother, speak for the majority do they? They speak for themselves. See, most mormons I talk to don't really have a lot of knowledge on the Bible, that doesn't mean that nobody on this forum does. That wouldn't be a fair assessment or statement for me to make, just as yours isn't.

You claim to have logic, but I don't see you post anything other than bashing of those who you believe are "without knowledge". And you do it with slander, nothing of substance.

[Flyonthewall]

...

There is no difficulty or conundrum in the orthodox view of human nature. God created us specifically to be physical creatures who reflect and represent his character and will in this physical world. To be what God created us to be, we need to be resurrected with immortal bodies. Jesus Christ is indeed God, and he became a man in order to redeem us from sin and death so that we might become perfect human beings with immortality. It was an amazing act of grace and condescension for the Son of God to incarnate himself permanently as one of us so that he might give us his righteousness and immortality. Far from being a problem for orthodox theology, this truth is at the very core and heart of what we believe.

So if I am following you correctly, we are physical beings by design, to be a reflection of God's character and will in the physical world...

There are some obvious question that need clarification if this is so....

If we are to be in the presence of God after death, for all eternity, that would make God part of the physical world we are a part of.

How long after death is the resurrection, and where are we after we die? After death, we are not part of the physical world...right? We can survive without a body for whatever period of time that is...how so if we are designed to be physical? For that matter, why would we bother with a spirit at all?

Why would Jesus need to continue with a physical body after His mortal life? He, being God, has no need of a physical body, if I follow correctly, the only need would have been to perform His sacrifice, after that, His body would be of no use to Him, He could go back to being a spirit only.

You infer that Jesus was required to become a physical entity to give us His righteousnous and immortality...which begs the question as to why He could not do this as a spirit.

So far, I only have pieces of a puzzle with very few fitting together...and there are more pieces than when I started.

[Rob Bowman]

CV75,

You wrote:

If this were true, He would not need a body. His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane, death on the cross and resurrection would be unnecessary as He would have known, suffered for and overcome sin and death without the bother of a mortal body.

I don't know what to make of this objection. He suffered and died by actually suffering and dying, not merely by knowing eternally what it would be like.

You wrote:

Or does this mean God possesses an incorporeal “virtual” omniscience with which He knows about all things and an “actual” omniscience with which He knows all things once He possesses a body?

Ditto. God knows all things, but he does not experience all things.

You wrote:

Personally, I think He does know what it is like to carry a baby or swim like a trout, and I think such "empathy" is a function of His having a body. Christ experienced everything a physically and spiritually fallen world has to offer in His infinite suffering.

There is a difference between knowing what something is like, and empathizing with those who experience something, and actually experiencing it. I can empathize with someone who has been divorced even though I have never been divorced. God can love and have compassion for a woman in labor without ever being a woman. God can know what happens to a trout without being a trout. And God can know what bodily experience is like without having a body--though in the Incarnation he has one and forever will have one.

[thesometimesaint]

Jesterss:

How very condescending of you.