Seed Of Lehi

[altersteve]

The Native Americans being the "seed of Lehi" doesn't mean that they are his direct descendents, does it? I've always understood it to mean any group of people that intermarries with his direct descendents. For example, if Lemuel's granddaughter married a Mayan priest or whatever, then every member of that Mayan priest's family, and all their relatives and descendents who married into other families, etc., would become the "seed of Lehi," and therefore become a "remnant of the house of Israel." Another example would be Nephi's wife, who is not related to Lehi other than being his daughter-in-law (meaning she is not related to him by blood as far as we know); however, she would be Lehi's seed in this way as well, since she married into Lehi's family.

Is this a correct interpretation? Any thoughts?

[Rivers]

Here's the best thing I've read on the subject.

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Who_Are_the_Lamanites.pdf

[mapman]

I'm not sure what you mean by "direct descendant". Would an indirect descendant be someone who is not actually descended from someone but married to a descendant?

[mfbukowski]

The Native Americans being the "seed of Lehi" doesn't mean that they are his direct descendents, does it? I've always understood it to mean any group of people that intermarries with his direct descendents. For example, if Lemuel's granddaughter married a Mayan priest or whatever, then every member of that Mayan priest's family, and all their relatives and descendents who married into other families, etc., would become the "seed of Lehi," and therefore become a "remnant of the house of Israel." Another example would be Nephi's wife, who is not related to Lehi other than being his daughter-in-law (meaning she is not related to him by blood as far as we know); however, she would be Lehi's seed in this way as well, since she married into Lehi's family.

Is this a correct interpretation? Any thoughts?

For what it's worth, sounds good to me.

[orion88]

One part of the article stated, "Most LDS scholars agree that the Lehites were

a small incursion into a larger existing population of Native Americans."

From reading the Book of Mormon, what infers that the Nephites/Lamanites met

other civilizations while supposedly in the Americas?

[Bernard Gui]

Is there such a thing as an indirect descendant?

All of my children and grandchildren are my direct descendants. I don't understand how some could be

indirect descendants. My grandchildren are also direct descendants of their other grandparents. All of us are direct descendants of Adam and Eve.

If a stray Lehite had children with a Mayan, all of their descendants would be direct descendants of Lehi and Sariah.

Bernard

[altersteve]

I guess "direct descendent" was not a good way to put it, but I simply meant that one can be the "seed of Lehi" even without being directly related to him through any sort of bloodline, only distantly through marriage. Like if a Mayan's niece was married to Sam's grandson, then that Mayan (the uncle of Sam's grandson's wife) would be the "seed of Lehi," even though he's not really a "descendent" of Lehi. And then that entire family and all their relatives, including future relatives, would also become the seed of Lehi. Right?

One part of the article stated, "Most LDS scholars agree that the Lehites were

a small incursion into a larger existing population of Native Americans."

From reading the Book of Mormon, what infers that the Nephites/Lamanites met

other civilizations while supposedly in the Americas?

Well, part of it is the fact that we have proof of people living in the Americas long before 600 B.C.

[Nathair/|\]

I'm not sure what you mean by "direct descendant". Would an indirect descendant be someone who is not actually descended from someone but married to a descendant?

Is there such a thing as an indirect descendant?

All of my children and grandchildren are my direct descendants. I don't understand how some could be

indirect descendants. My grandchildren are also direct descendants of their other grandparents. All of us are direct descendants of Adam and Eve.

If a stray Lehite had children with a Mayan, all of their descendants would be direct descendants of Lehi and Sariah.

Bernard

Perhaps an "indirect descendant" is the direct descendant of your sibling, cousin or step-child.

[altersteve]

Perhaps an "indirect descendant" is the direct descendant of your sibling, cousin or step-child.

Exactly. That's what I meant, thank you.

[Bernard Gui]

Perhaps an "indirect descendant" is the direct descendant of your sibling, cousin or step-child.

A descendant of your sibling would be a descendant of your father and mother, of your cousin would be a descendant of your grandparents, a step-child your spouse's and his/her mate's descendant.

If one of the founding Lehites had children with an aboriginal, all their progeny would be descendants of Lehi or Zoram. Couldn't it be reasonably be said that a large proportion of today's Native Americans could be Lehites?

Bernard

An interesting article:

http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/9

Edited September 12, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[blackstrap]

A Lehite girl marries a native Mayan.All their children would be direct descendents of Lehi.The native Mayan would be indirect but all the brothers and sisters of the native Mayan would have no bloodline connection to Lehi.Would they still be considered "seed" of Lehi? To me that is a stretch.I suppose there is all that "grafting in" to the house of Israel stuff.

[ebeddoulos]

One part of the article stated, "Most LDS scholars agree that the Lehites were

a small incursion into a larger existing population of Native Americans."

From reading the Book of Mormon, what infers that the Nephites/Lamanites met

other civilizations while supposedly in the Americas?

The Book of Mormon talks of the blessings given to the descendants of the Lamanites and to those previous arrivals who will be “numbered among” the Lamanites.

“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, thus saith our God: I will afflict thy seed by the hand of the Gentiles; nevertheless, I will soften the hearts of the Gentiles, that they shall be like unto a father to them; wherefore, the Gentiles shall be blessed and numbered among the house of Israel. Wherefore, I will consecrate this land unto thy seed, and them who shall be numbered among thy seed, forever, for the land of their inheritance; for it is a choice land, saith God unto me, above all other lands, wherefore I will have all men that dwell thereon that they shall worship me, saith God.” (2 Nephi 10:18-19 – emphasis added)

Nephi, patriarch of the Nephites, knew that they were not the only ones in the land. He knew that others would be lead there by the Hand of the Lord.

“For, behold, said he, I have seen a vision, in which I know that Jerusalem is destroyed; and had we remained in Jerusalem we should also have perished. But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord. Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.” (2 Nephi 1:4-6 – emphasis added)

Nephi also knew there were others already there because when he separated his people from his brothers, in addition to his own family and the families of his brothers, Sam, Jacob and Joseph his sisters, and Zoram, he took “all those who would go with me.”

“And it came to pass that the Lord did warn me, that I, Nephi, should depart from them and flee into the wilderness, and all those who would go with me. Wherefore, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did take my family, and also Zoram and his family, and Sam, mine elder brother and his family, and Jacob and Joseph, my younger brethren, and also my sisters, and all those who would go with me. And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words.” (2 Nephi 5:5-6 – emphasis added)

A man of unknown origins came “among the people of Nephi”. His name was Sherem and he preached against the advent of a messiah. .

“And now it came to pass after some years had passed away, there came a man among the people of Nephi, whose name was Sherem. And it came to pass that he began to preach among the people, and to declare unto them that there should be no Christ.” (Jacob 7:1-2)

He was an outsider who sought to undermine the testimonies of the Nephites; not a Lamanite who at that time continually “sought by the power of their arms to destroy” the Nephites

“And it came to pass that many means were devised to reclaim and restore the Lamanites to the knowledge of the truth; but it all was vain, for they delighted in wars and bloodshed, and they had an eternal hatred against us, their brethren. And they sought by the power of their arms to destroy us continually.” (Jacob 7:24)

Mormon, one of the final prophets of the Nephites and the compiler of the Book of Mormon, indicates that unlike others around him who intermarried with the natives, he was “a pure descendant of Lehi.”

“I am Mormon, and a pure descendant of Lehi. I have reason to bless my God and my Savior Jesus Christ, that he brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem, (and no one knew it save it were himself and those whom he brought out of that land) and that he hath given me and my people so much knowledge unto the salvation of our souls.’ (3 Nephi 5: 20 – emphasis added)

I hope that helps.

[Hughes]

The Native Americans being the "seed of Lehi" doesn't mean that they are his direct descendents, does it? I've always understood it to mean any group of people that intermarries with his direct descendents. For example, if Lemuel's granddaughter married a Mayan priest or whatever, then every member of that Mayan priest's family, and all their relatives and descendents who married into other families, etc., would become the "seed of Lehi," and therefore become a "remnant of the house of Israel." Another example would be Nephi's wife, who is not related to Lehi other than being his daughter-in-law (meaning she is not related to him by blood as far as we know); however, she would be Lehi's seed in this way as well, since she married into Lehi's family.

Is this a correct interpretation? Any thoughts?

D. Jeffrey Meldrum and Trent D. Stephens, two Mormon biologists from Idaho State University, “accept the published data dealing with Native American origins and view those data as reasonably representing American-Asian connections.” In an article titled, “Who Are the Children of Lehi?” written for the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, both men admit that “the data accumulated to date indicate that 99.6 percent of Native American genetic markers studied so far exhibit Siberian connections.” They add, “There has been little if any evidence seriously considered by the mainstream, scientific community that would indicate a Middle East origin, or any other source of origin, for the majority of contemporary Native Americans.”

[link contains temple content: removed]

Edited September 12, 2011 by Minos
board violation

[altersteve]

Hughes, you don't understand what I'm saying. I'm fully aware of the information you posted, and I accept the truthfulness of it. I don't believe modern Native Americans are Middle Eastern in origin, but I do believe that they are the "seed of Lehi," as the Book of Mormon says. There is a difference, and I suggest that you learn what that difference is before you come into the discussion with something that everybody already knows.

[Bernard Gui]

A Lehite girl marries a native Mayan.All their children would be direct descendents of Lehi.

That is correct.

The native Mayan would be indirect but all the brothers and sisters of the native Mayan would have no bloodline connection to Lehi.

Indirect is meaningless. He is simply not a descendant.

Neither are his brothers or sisters.

Would they still be considered "seed" of Lehi? To me that is a stretch.I suppose there is all that "grafting in" to the house of Israel stuff.

No and no. However, if later descendants of the Mayan's brothers and sisters marry one of Lehi's descendants all resulting progeny would be direct descendants of Lehi.

Bernard

Edited September 13, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

Why not adopted seed? In our culture we see inlaws as relatives, after all, though not always as complete 'insiders'. In a culture where survival often depended on a deep identification with the group one was living among, such spiritual, even ritualized adoption seems likely. The relevant question is if they share in the blessings.

[Rivers]

One part of the article stated, "Most LDS scholars agree that the Lehites were

a small incursion into a larger existing population of Native Americans."

From reading the Book of Mormon, what infers that the Nephites/Lamanites met

other civilizations while supposedly in the Americas?

Not much. We simply must assume that this happened based on what we now know about the ancient Americas.

Certain parts of the Book of Mormon make little more sense when viewed through this understanding. For example, the population growths which are recorded make whole lot more sense if we assume that there were other people in the Americas.

Later on in the Book of Mormon, the Lamanites are described as being much more numerous than the Nephites even though so much more are killed in battles. I hypothesize that the Lamanites were associated with the Mayan empire.

[Maidservant]

The Native Americans being the "seed of Lehi" doesn't mean that they are his direct descendents, does it? I've always understood it to mean any group of people that intermarries with his direct descendents. For example, if Lemuel's granddaughter married a Mayan priest or whatever, then every member of that Mayan priest's family, and all their relatives and descendents who married into other families, etc., would become the "seed of Lehi," and therefore become a "remnant of the house of Israel." Another example would be Nephi's wife, who is not related to Lehi other than being his daughter-in-law (meaning she is not related to him by blood as far as we know); however, she would be Lehi's seed in this way as well, since she married into Lehi's family.

Is this a correct interpretation? Any thoughts?

Is your question a way to try to understand how the indigenous peoples of North America as we see them now fit into the Book of Mormon stories or history?

[Calm]

Not much. We simply must assume that this happened based on what we now know about the ancient Americas.

Certain parts of the Book of Mormon make little more sense when viewed through this understanding. For example, the population growths which are recorded make whole lot more sense if we assume that there were other people in the Americas.

Later on in the Book of Mormon, the Lamanites are described as being much more numerous than the Nephites even though so much more are killed in battles. I hypothesize that the Lamanites were associated with the Mayan empire.

It is not just a simple assumption that this is what happens, you yourself provide reasons to believe this is what happened.

[orion88]

The FAIR article "Who Are the Lamanites?" (http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Who_Are_the_Lamanites.pdf)

says, "Most LDS scholars agree that the Lehites were a small incursion

into a larger existing population of Native Americans."

From reading the Book of Mormon, what infers that the Nephites/Lamanites met

other civilizations while supposedly in the Americas?

[Rivers]

The FAIR article "Who Are the Lamanites?" (http://www.fairlds.o...e_Lamanites.pdf)

says, "Most LDS scholars agree that the Lehites were a small incursion

into a larger existing population of Native Americans."

From reading the Book of Mormon, what infers that the Nephites/Lamanites met

other civilizations while supposedly in the Americas?

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2003_Nephis_Neighbors.html

[orion88]

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2003_Nephis_Neighbors.html

Thanks. I'll have a look.

Tony