The Apostate Church - The History

[Franktalk]

The apostate church history

The apostate church started way before the Apostles died. We see evidence in the written letters of the Apostles which clearly shows a drift from the correct structure of the church and the doctrines taught by the Apostles. What I would like to show is the sequence of steps that led to the downfall. There were additional misreads of scripture which helped the downfall as well. I will describe them as well. With this history of a past downfall we should be able to prevent events such as these from creeping into the LDS Church.

I have found a real lack of in depth knowledge of the apostate church. When I have asked exactly what is an apostate church I get very weak answers. So I have done my own study using scripture and the early church fathers to obtain the ideas and decisions which led to the downfall.

For those who are just coming to this subject let me state that an apostate church is one that has drifted from what it should be. As we go through the detail many will see the current LDS Church and you will see how the Church has been restored. The fall of the church is a big priority for Satan. He uses the weaknesses of men to slowly move the church from one form to another. I can tell you that when a Church is led by members which are led by the Holy Ghost then that Church will not fall. But if any other idea, being, or process is used to run a church it is doomed.

There is some opinion mixed in the details that I will present. Feel free to disagree but please offer your own opinions and reasons to the discussion.

So to start with let us look at what was happening while the Apostles were still spreading the Word.

John 6:26

26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Here Christ is talking about the crowd that followed Him after they were fed by a miracle where a few fish and little bread was used to feed a large crowd. The point is that the Words of the Lord did not bring the crowd back, the miracle did not bring the crowd back. What brought the crowd was the free meal that was offered. It was the weakness of the flesh which motivated the crowd. So here with Christ standing in front of them and miracles being performed the world was still stronger.

Matthew 16:23

23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Here Peter an Apostle of Christ is called out by Christ because of his weak moment. So the influence of Satan is strong and will act against the will of God. So how else do these weaknesses show up in the church? Let us use the seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation to supply us with some detail. Remember that John was on the Island Patmos when he wrote this Book so it would be around 90 AD.

Revelation 2

1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; ……

4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love…..

12And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; ……

14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate….

18And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write;………

20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Revelation 3

1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; ……

I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;…..

15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

So what do we have here. We have people leaving their first love, that would be the love of God. The doctrine of Balaam is where you allow some worldly treats into the church. The doctrine of the Nicolaitanes is two fold where you allow a church leader to rule over you, it also applies to the leader who allows this to happen as well. The comment on Jezebel refers to allowing a member to openly do wrong yet not be kicked out of the church. We also see that those who lack a zeal for God are not doing well in the eyes of the Lord. Last we have people who wrap themselves with the riches of the world yet starve their soul.

Now in John 6 and Matthew 16 these events were before Pentecost. But the problems in the churches in Revelation were after Pentecost. Sadly much of the same. But the church was growing and even with some problems the Holy Ghost managed to help many into salvation. More on a personal level than one on a church level. We will see that soon after 90 AD the thoughts of men started to form doctrine just as the Pharisees had before Christ came.

For the individuals it seems that the following applies:

Matthew 13:18-23

18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Franktalk

[Joseph Antley]

I'm glad you're here to educate us, Frank.

[volgadon]

I'm glad you're here to educate us, Frank.

It feels like a second Sinai...

[Franktalk]

When the Apostles died off with the possible exception of John. Men started to ask questions about scripture and as men they were not satisfied with not knowing. So some scripture was interpreted in a wide variety of ways. This led some early church fathers to write down what was heresy and what was not. Although this was well intended it set the stage for all that followed. As man wrote and had some writings accepted as truth then the ideas of man instead of God started to modify scripture. Some men were held in high esteem for their knowledge and ability to explain those areas that were difficult. Unknowingly they became fools for Satan. Here is a link to a list of heresies written down by Irenaeus in 175 to 185 AD. Not very interesting reading.

http://www.gnosis.org/library/advh1.htm

Most of the heresies were centered around people trying to pull in Greek or Roman gods into the Gospel. There was also an early attempt to bring in Greek philosophy into the Gospel. But with all kinds of people doing their own thing someone had to step up and lay down some rules. Best of intentions. Now it appears to me that many of the early leaders were not led by the Holy Ghost. It is possible that they loved the Word and not God. But there are some exceptions. To my mind Polycarp is solid in spirit. There are only a very few things by him but they clearly show a mind like an Apostle. Sadly he was killed and most of his works are lost. Here is a small sample of a letter to the church of Philippi.

Polycarp 2:1

“Wherefore gird up your loins and serve God in fear and truth,

forsaking the vain and empty talking and the error of the many, for

that ye have believed on Him that raised our Lord Jesus Christ from

the dead and gave unto him glory and a throne on His right hand;

unto whom all things were made subject that are in heaven and that

are on the earth; to whom every creature that hath breath doeth

service; who cometh as judge of quick and dead; whose blood God

will require of them that are disobedient unto Him.”

I think we can see that Polycarp is focused on the praise of God. If you wish to read more use this link:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/polycarp-lightfoot.html

Now Polycarp was believed to be a disciple of John. The Polycarp writings were from 110 to 140 AD. So he is close in time and known to have direct contact with Apostles. To me his writings are spirit filled.

As more people join the church there are more questions and more interpretations of men. One of the best examples of this kind of thinking comes from Tertullian in the date range of 197 to 220 AD. He came up with the term trinity. But he thought of the relationship between the Father , Christ, and Holy Ghost as a monarchy with the Father as the leader. He did not believe in what is accepted as the trinity today. There exist a bunch of his writings covering many subjects but it is clear that these are thought projects and not driven by the Holy Ghost. Here is a sample from Against Praxeas:

From Chapter 3

“They are constantly throwing out against us that we are preachers of two gods and three gods, while they take to themselves pre-eminently the credit of being worshippers of the One God; just as if the Unity itself with irrational deductions did not produce heresy, and the Trinity rationally considered constitute the truth. We, say they, maintain the Monarchy (or, sole government of God).”

This one is really a great read. Not so much because it is truth but it shows the confusion that exist at the time and the efforts to shore up doctrine. Much later his term “trinity” is used but not his ideas of a monarchy. Here is the link:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/tertullian17.html

Next I will cover what I call the great divide. It is the misread of scripture which brought down the church. I will use some material I have posted before.

[blackstrap]

Whenever I contemplate the apostacy,I am always amazed that the church in its original form lasted as long as it did.Think about the history of the LDS church in the 180 years of its existence.Think of all the apostacy and split-offs etc. and that with relatively strong central control and quite good long distance communication.

I have wondered why Christ was in such a hurry.Could He not have found a quieter time and lived about 80 years so as to establish a strong tradition and a firm organization before entering into the maelstrom of Jerusalem.Here's hoping your presentation can answer some of my questions.

[Franktalk]

Whenever I contemplate the apostacy,I am always amazed that the church in its original form lasted as long as it did.Think about the history of the LDS church in the 180 years of its existence.Think of all the apostacy and split-offs etc. and that with relatively strong central control and quite good long distance communication.

I have wondered why Christ was in such a hurry.Could He not have found a quieter time and lived about 80 years so as to establish a strong tradition and a firm organization before entering into the maelstrom of Jerusalem.Here's hoping your presentation can answer some of my questions.

Some of your questions deal with why God chose to do one thing and not another. These are tough to answer unless scripture deals with them directly. But in a general sense I do think we can draw some insights, or at least opinions. While Jesus was on the earth He did spread the message that He wanted to convey (as directed by the Father). We always want more but His message is enough for His purposes. While you ponder these questions you are not being tempted by Satan. Sometimes I think that our in depth study of scripture is designed by God for that very purpose. We must develop a trust of God to fill in the gaps later. But think about it, what if He instead gave us too much? What if there was so much scripture we could not read it in a lifetime. Then there is the example of the garden. We needed Adam and Eve to fall so we could come. Maybe the early church had to fall so man could see it is God and not the Church we are to look to. The balance between good and evil had to be maintained so each of us can experience what we need to in our life. We may not see the purpose but I do trust there is one and God has my best long term interest at heart.

The study of the fall of the church is a study of the fall of man as man embraces the world.

[jo1952]

Whenever I contemplate the apostacy,I am always amazed that the church in its original form lasted as long as it did.Think about the history of the LDS church in the 180 years of its existence.Think of all the apostacy and split-offs etc. and that with relatively strong central control and quite good long distance communication.

I have wondered why Christ was in such a hurry.Could He not have found a quieter time and lived about 80 years so as to establish a strong tradition and a firm organization before entering into the maelstrom of Jerusalem.Here's hoping your presentation can answer some of my questions.

What a great question! It's one I have never even considered. I will need to ponder this one now along with all of my other questions (thanks....I think....).

At this moment, all I would have to offer is that I have faith in Heavenly Father and His desire is to have all of us be able to return to His presence. So, even though WE may not understand how His purposes unfold, I try to remember to have faith. That faith encompasses accepting whatever is going on around me which happens without my choosing it; or, IOW, when the choices of others remove my free agency. I know that Father and Christ are aware of all that is happening and they take all of these things into consideration. Thank heavens Christ can see into our hearts; that He has experienced all the things we experience; that He is our Perfect Mediator.

It occurs to me that even the time period between when Adam and Eve first came to the Earth, and the time when Christ came in the flesh, that all of those years of prophesying were still not enough for man to recognize Christ when He did come the first time. In my own life time I have recognized how quickly people forget things - even things which have impacted the entire earth. We also can see how history continues to repeat itself because of man's attachment to the world and how their pride and egos interact with it. Maybe a reason Father had for keeping Jesus' stay in the flesh for such a short period of time, is because a longer period of time would not have made any difference.

We know from studying both the Bible and the Book of Mormon how quickly people would stray - even after enjoying tremendous blessings. I think it was inevitable that there would also be an apostasy after Jesus established His ancient Church. Now, even though we have received the promise that our Leaders will not be allowed to lead us astray, we also know that as individuals, they can fall. Fortunately, the Lord has provided within the administrative processes of His Restored Church, the means to be able to get rid of a Leader who transgresses. I would remind all of us that the Body of Christ is made up of all of those who believe in Christ. Since we are fallible, it is possible for us to fall - even those who have received great knowledge through the power of the Holy Ghost can become a Son of Perdition. The point is, that just because we are members of the LDS Church and we enjoy so many blessings AS members of the Church, this is not a guaranty that we will not, as individuals, apostatize.

I have always been amazed by Jesus' teaching to His Apostles wherein He tells them that He has not taught them everything yet; that they were not yet able to bear more Truth. Just think of all that the Apostle's had experienced in their walk with Christ. Some had even been witness to His Transfiguration. Additionally, they had had around 40 days of what I imagine were intense education by Christ before His Ascension. And still, they were not able to receive more! And they were told they could not reveal all that had been taught to them, most likely because mankind, in general, was not ready to hear it. Even with a lifetime of following Christ, we still cannot know all there is to know while we are still in the flesh. I also believe that throughout eternity we will still be learning.

I would also add that I am amazed that much of mainstream Christendom denies that there ever was an apostasy. Of course, they use an entirely different definition of "apostasy"; which, I might add, is the definition given to it by the RCC.

Best regards,

jo

Edited August 10, 2011 by jo1952

[elguanteloko]

You might be interested in this thread:

[Franktalk]

You might be interested in this thread:

God is a respecter of free will. He gave us a great jewel with His Gospel. What we do with that jewel is up to us. But to a point. God does intervene all of the time in events in order to maintain a balance for our existence. The restrainer holds back the powers of evil and God does work inside and outside of us to allow us to experience the things necessary for the elect to come to Him. Those in His remnant or elect I am sure felt the power of God in their life but they were still free to choose.

[Franktalk]

As I have mentioned before one of the major issues with the early church was the doctrines of the Nicolaitans. Jesus says He hates this. This doctrine places church leaders in a position between you and God. You as a follower of the Nicolaitan doctrine would look to the church leaders for your answers and not directly to God. Here is a link for more information:

http://www.bibleone.net/BF07.htm

In this structure the Holy Ghost is actually suppressed because your faith is misdirected. You can not be filled with the ideas of man and have the Holy Ghost fill you as well. So how can man place himself between us and God and appear justified in doing so? It is done through misinterpretation of scripture.

Matthew 16:16-19

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of h*** shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

One interpretation of this passage is that the faith of Peter and his witness of Christ is the foundation of the church. Peter is also symbolic of the church and all authority given Peter is given to the church. So when Peter died the authority passed to the new Bishop of Rome. What is key in this interpretation is that Peter is told that whatsoever he shall bind on earth it will also be bound in heaven, and whatsoever he shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. So ignoring the rest of scripture one could say that the Bishop of Rome has authority to do anything. If anyone is interested you can look up in the Catholic Encyclopedia vol 12 around page 266 and find the rights of the Pope and the RCC. Now I don't happen to agree with this interpretation of this passage. What this looks like in practice most would reject if they knew the details. In practice it means that any scripture can be changed for the good of the church. It means new scripture can be added to the canon by the Bishop of Rome. It means that innocent blood can be taken because the church can declare anyone a heretic for what ever reason they want. It means that all methods including murder and all forms of lies can be used by the church in order to grow and or save the church. It means that forgiveness of sins comes from the church. The doctrine of the Nicolaitans is when the church leaders take authority over your salvation, the other half of this is you let them.

Let me restate that it is my belief that the above passage tells us that the foundation of the church is the spirit to spirit communication between man and God. Since I don't believe Peter represented the church then the keys were given him and not passed to the church. And just how do I know that the keys were not passed? I think there is another passage which seems strange to many but if viewed in this light it is revealing.

Acts 5:3-11

3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

11And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Here it is clear that Peter has some involvement in the killing of these two people. Some say it is not Peter but the Holy Ghost. To those I would say that over the last two thousand years many people have done the same as these two and were not killed. So what ever power Peter had did not pass to the next Bishop of Rome. I am sure that if the Popes over the last two thousand years had this power they would have used it. So the authority of Peter did not pass down. This means that a church which believes it has the power and authority to change scripture is apostate.

It is my belief that Peter is typical of many people in the Bible. He was not perfect and we are to find those imperfect areas and recognize them. If we do not then we are led to believe things that are not true. Let me lay this out so you can see my view.

Christ said to Peter

John 21:18

18Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

I think there is way more going on here than most would admit. I think that this is a warning for us reading scripture to look for areas where Peter is doing his own thing and not following the Holy Spirit. It is my belief that Peter was responsible for the killing of the husband and wife who failed to give the church what they said they would. If the Holy Ghost killed everyone who ever said one thing to God and did another we would all be dead. But this passage is a lesson for us. I think we are to see Peter in a critical light. Just as we see David in a critical light when he kills a man to gain access to the man’s wife. Now David shed innocent blood whereas Peter did not.

Now Peter is viewed by some as representing the church. The killing of the two people by Peter is justification for the future church to kill in order to promote or protect the church. It is obvious that Christ never taught to kill but to be an example and preach the good word. It is my opinion that Peter was chosen by Christ because he was a hot head. Peter did things on his own that we should examine in light of the rest of scripture. Are we to use the killing of the husband and wife as the standard and modify the rest of scripture or are we to look at the killings with a critical eye? In my mind the killings are not in line with the rest of scripture. So why are they there? I believe that they are there as a stumbling block. The early church saw these verses as a way to obtain power and justification to use the ways of the world to obtain wealth and power. Where in scripture does it say to obtain size in the church by using the ways of the world?

So was Christ warning us in John 21:18 that Peter would do things that were not God's will but his own? I think He was warning us.

So after the death of Peter the church of Rome decides to incorporate some of the aspects of Greek philosophy into its doctrine. They also decide to include some pagan holidays into the church as well. The doctrine of the Trinity came in as well with the Council of Nicea. The church becomes a civil State and makes laws to govern the people lives and their spirits. This continues until Napoleon strips their State authority. Of course Mussolini gave them back their State authority which they still hold today. Vatican City is its own country.

This drifting away from scripture became so bad that the members of the church divided. This was known as the Protestant Reformation. What is sad is the split did not fix the issues with doctrine or structure. The churches that split off did the same things. They changed scripture as well. We have the gap theory which tells us that the long ages of the earth are in gaps in scripture. We have replacement theology which states that the promises to the Jews are now given to the church. We have many people who feel that the theories of science are the ultimate truth and scripture must only deal with those places where man has not defined.

So it should not be surprising that the church had to be re-established on the earth.

There are additional scriptures which drive this point. And they are directed at Peter.

John 21:15-18

15So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

18Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Notice that Jesus did not say kill my sheep. Was Christ making a point? Of course He was. The message is to love the sheep as thyself and to love thy God. How do we show our love of God? By loving His sheep. By feeding His sheep. By visiting His sheep in prison.

It is not my goal to bring down Peter. My goal is to understand some history and make sure I do not make similar mistakes. If men can stumble on scripture once we can do it again. Only by following the Holy Spirit can we know if we are on the right track.

[Storm Rider]

The apostate church history

The apostate church started way before the Apostles died. We see evidence in the written letters of the Apostles which clearly shows a drift from the correct structure of the church and the doctrines taught by the Apostles. What I would like to show is the sequence of steps that led to the downfall. There were additional misreads of scripture which helped the downfall as well. I will describe them as well. With this history of a past downfall we should be able to prevent events such as these from creeping into the LDS Church.

I have found a real lack of in depth knowledge of the apostate church. When I have asked exactly what is an apostate church I get very weak answers. So I have done my own study using scripture and the early church fathers to obtain the ideas and decisions which led to the downfall.

For those who are just coming to this subject let me state that an apostate church is one that has drifted from what it should be. As we go through the detail many will see the current LDS Church and you will see how the Church has been restored. The fall of the church is a big priority for Satan. He uses the weaknesses of men to slowly move the church from one form to another. I can tell you that when a Church is led by members which are led by the Holy Ghost then that Church will not fall. But if any other idea, being, or process is used to run a church it is doomed.

There is some opinion mixed in the details that I will present. Feel free to disagree but please offer your own opinions and reasons to the discussion.

So to start with let us look at what was happening while the Apostles were still spreading the Word.

John 6:26

26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Here Christ is talking about the crowd that followed Him after they were fed by a miracle where a few fish and little bread was used to feed a large crowd. The point is that the Words of the Lord did not bring the crowd back, the miracle did not bring the crowd back. What brought the crowd was the free meal that was offered. It was the weakness of the flesh which motivated the crowd. So here with Christ standing in front of them and miracles being performed the world was still stronger.

Matthew 16:23

23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Here Peter an Apostle of Christ is called out by Christ because of his weak moment. So the influence of Satan is strong and will act against the will of God. So how else do these weaknesses show up in the church? Let us use the seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation to supply us with some detail. Remember that John was on the Island Patmos when he wrote this Book so it would be around 90 AD.

Revelation 2

1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; ……

4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love…..

12And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; ……

14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate….

18And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write;………

20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Revelation 3

1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; ……

I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;…..

15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

So what do we have here. We have people leaving their first love, that would be the love of God. The doctrine of Balaam is where you allow some worldly treats into the church. The doctrine of the Nicolaitanes is two fold where you allow a church leader to rule over you, it also applies to the leader who allows this to happen as well. The comment on Jezebel refers to allowing a member to openly do wrong yet not be kicked out of the church. We also see that those who lack a zeal for God are not doing well in the eyes of the Lord. Last we have people who wrap themselves with the riches of the world yet starve their soul.

Now in John 6 and Matthew 16 these events were before Pentecost. But the problems in the churches in Revelation were after Pentecost. Sadly much of the same. But the church was growing and even with some problems the Holy Ghost managed to help many into salvation. More on a personal level than one on a church level. We will see that soon after 90 AD the thoughts of men started to form doctrine just as the Pharisees had before Christ came.

For the individuals it seems that the following applies:

Matthew 13:18-23

18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

When skimming your edit, I noted that your interpretation of Rev. 2:2-4 is different from mine. It was not that they did not love God, but that they forgot WHY they were obedient. He is chastizing the those who are stalwart in the church; these are they who, "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars..." It is not that they did not love God, it is that they became obervers of the law and forgot the Spirit of it. They were living righteous lives, but they forgot why they acted this way. We must be careful about making broad brush strokes about doctrine or interpretation of scripture.

For me Apostasy is the act of ignoring the Spirit, creating the doctrines or spiritual laws of men. I have always thought that every time we create a new law or policy in the Church we take one step away from the gospel of Jesus. We can counsel, encourage, and guide our children (the Church its members), but as soon as we start creating wierd laws (one set of earrings, etc.) then we become more like the ancient Jews and we lose the value of Jesus' gospel.

[Franktalk]

When skimming your edit, I noted that your interpretation of Rev. 2:2-4 is different from mine. It was not that they did not love God, but that they forgot WHY they were obedient. He is chastizing the those who are stalwart in the church; these are they who, "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars..." It is not that they did not love God, it is that they became obervers of the law and forgot the Spirit of it. They were living righteous lives, but they forgot why they acted this way. We must be careful about making broad brush strokes about doctrine or interpretation of scripture.

For me Apostasy is the act of ignoring the Spirit, creating the doctrines or spiritual laws of men. I have always thought that every time we create a new law or policy in the Church we take one step away from the gospel of Jesus. We can counsel, encourage, and guide our children (the Church its members), but as soon as we start creating wierd laws (one set of earrings, etc.) then we become more like the ancient Jews and we lose the value of Jesus' gospel.

I understand your position. But let me cast it in the light of other scripture. The Jews under Moses became a people of the Book and not a people who loved God. They were so into the scriptures that they forgot who God was. But they did not read all the scriptures they picked and chose those they liked. So when Christ came to the earth they did not recognize Him. They instead were looking for a King that would conquer armies not hearts. The Jews did not hold to the prophecy of Daniel which told them to the day that the Messiah would arrive at the gates of Jerusalem. So losing your first love means more than just a change of focus. It means we see God through the lense of the world and our desires.

[CV75]

I have wondered why Christ was in such a hurry.Could He not have found a quieter time and lived about 80 years so as to establish a strong tradition and a firm organization before entering into the maelstrom of Jerusalem.

Of course He could have, but according to John 12:24, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.” The Apostasy was necessary for ushering in the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times just as death is necessary for ushering in immortality. Verses 23-36 describe why and how this is; essentially His kingdom is not of this world and for the meantime death, h***, and those who are of the world bear sway (bring death) until His wrath is full (bringeth forth much fruit).

[cinepro]

Whenever I contemplate the apostacy,I am always amazed that the church in its original form lasted as long as it did.Think about the history of the LDS church in the 180 years of its existence.Think of all the apostacy and split-offs etc. and that with relatively strong central control and quite good long distance communication.

Another way to look at it is to ask what the CoJCoLdS might look like 2,000 years from now. It's easy to look at the history of the Catholic Church and see how it went apostate, but I think that's only fair to do if you have a 2,000-year-old non-apostate church to compare it to.

Or, as someone said before, "apostasy" is when your church changes, "ongoing revelation" is when my church changes.

[jo1952]

For me Apostasy is the act of ignoring the Spirit, creating the doctrines or spiritual laws of men. I have always thought that every time we create a new law or policy in the Church we take one step away from the gospel of Jesus. We can counsel, encourage, and guide our children (the Church its members), but as soon as we start creating wierd laws (one set of earrings, etc.) then we become more like the ancient Jews and we lose the value of Jesus' gospel.

That certainly can become a tricky issue. The way I see it, though, is that I remember Jesus taught us that even He had not taught everything to His Apostles because they were not yet ready to bear it. He told us that the Comforter would be coming and that it would be the Holy Ghost who would lead us to all Truth. Inasmuch as John was also told in Revelation this:

Revelation 10:11

And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

I believe that this is a clear indication to me that prophesy was still going to continue. In fact this passage also confirms that more is yet to come:

Acts 2:17

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

This sounds to me like there will be information pouring down from Heaven, and it will most likely be received by peoples all over the Earth; regardless of their religious affiliation.

So, this is where we are left with the admonition to test what is being taught. I'm sure this subject has been covered quite a bit on these threads. That testing will be extremely important in these latter-days because Satan will also be using his false teachers and false prophets in great urgency.

Best regards,

jo

[jo1952]

Of course He could have, but according to John 12:24, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.” The Apostasy was necessary for ushering in the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times just as death is necessary for ushering in immortality. Verses 23-36 describe why and how this is; essentially His kingdom is not of this world and for the meantime death, h***, and those who are of the world bear sway (bring death) until His wrath is full (bringeth forth much fruit).

I especially find John 12:28-30 very interesting. Also, I cannot help but wonder that the word "thundered" is used. I wonder if there is a connection here to the seven thunders which John was forbidden to write about in Revelation.

Regards,

jo

[CV75]

I especially find John 12:28-30 very interesting. Also, I cannot help but wonder that the word "thundered" is used. I wonder if there is a connection here to the seven thunders which John was forbidden to write about in Revelation.

I can only guess that the term 'thunder" refers to an angel placed in authority for ordering and carrying out certain specific activities within a dispensation. They may serve as the "heaven" end of the work to bring heaven and earth together, and thus work closely with the Lord's anointed on earth.

[elguanteloko]

God is a respecter of free will.

this may be but this is quite irrelevant to the issue. That I respect my son's freewill doesn't say whether I'm going to send someone to help him or not or if I'm going to continue to stretch my hand to him whether he rejects me one time or many times. The point of the thread discussion I posted here is also so you can think about the said justifications of the Great Apostasy.

He gave us a great jewel with His Gospel. What we do with that jewel is up to us. But to a point. God does intervene all of the time in events in order to maintain a balance for our existence. The restrainer holds back the powers of evil and God does work inside and outside of us to allow us to experience the things necessary for the elect to come to Him. Those in His remnant or elect I am sure felt the power of God in their life but they were still free to choose.

same as above.

[jo1952]

I can only guess that the term 'thunder" refers to an angel placed in authority for ordering and carrying out certain specific activities within a dispensation. They may serve as the "heaven" end of the work to bring heaven and earth together, and thus work closely with the Lord's anointed on earth.

That would make sense. We have angels carrying out so many of the events in Revelation. We just aren't privy yet to what the specific duties of the seven thunders will be. Thanks!

Regards,

jo

[CV75]

That would make sense. We have angels carrying out so many of the events in Revelation. We just aren't privy yet to what the specific duties of the seven thunders will be. Thanks!

I'd be interested in what the scholars have to say about the religious use/meaning of the word/imagery of "thunder' in scripture vis-a-vis the early apostles. t might offer some insight into D&C 43:21 (beyond the idea of natural disasters as in verse 45). I'll give you a nickel if you start a thread about it!

[Franktalk]

Now I want to change gears a little before moving on. I want to examine a meeting that went on between the Apostles. In that meeting several issues were discussed that weighed heavily on the minds of the Apostles. But the Holy Spirit came through to show the direction they should go. I am referring to Acts 15:1-28

http://lds.org/scriptures/nt/acts/15.1-28?lang=eng#primary

Here we have Apostles and others disagreeing on the Law of Moses and whether the Law of Moses needs to be a requirement for the Gentiles who are becoming Christians. It seems that some in Jerusalem assumed that the Law was required and started to spread the word that the Gentiles would need to follow the Law of Moses. When Paul and Barnabas heard what was being told to the churches they went to Jerusalem to meet with the other Apostles. After some heated debates both Peter and James said that since the Holy Ghost had come to the Gentiles that only a few rules need be followed. It is important to note that in verse 28 it seems that the Holy Ghost confirmed what they had agreed to. But notice that there were no new Laws being discussed, there were no new doctrines being discussed. The discussion centered around existing scripture and doctrines that had already been revealed to the Apostles. They were not extending scripture to some new interpretation. Now these are the Apostles so they could have. But I think this meeting is showing us how a meeting can be led by the Holy Ghost. Peter had already received his vision of the unclean animals and been told to eat. The Centurion Cornelius had been told to send his people to Peter. Peter witnessed the Holy Ghost enter the Gentiles. These things in advance of the meeting with Paul. So the Holy Ghost led the way to the forgone conclusion of the meeting. It is interesting to note that after the meeting all could see the truth of the conclusion.

For me nothing is in scripture by accident. This meeting and all of the advance work done by the Holy Ghost is detailed for a reason. Can it be that this meeting is a template that we should use for any contention in the Church? I would suspect that if the members hold true to the Holy Ghost that the Holy Ghost will move them if a meeting is required. The key is and always has been to follow God and not try to led ourselves. God will do His work in us in His good time.

Next I want to compare this meeting with the meeting many years later. The Council of Nicea in 325 AD. If the church had fallen then we should be able to contrast this meeting with Paul and Peter with the men many years later.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Franktalk

[Franktalk]

In the lead up to the council of Nicea there are no recorded visions from the attending members. I am quite sure had there been any they would be recorded. I suspect that there may have been some promptings but I doubt if they supported the gathering.

Just what was to be accomplished in the meeting? Was the true nature of God going to be defined so we would all know or was it to make people accept a man’s view of God? What does scripture say about the nature of God?

Job 9:10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

When we go beyond what is in scripture we should do so very carefully. Scripture tells us in no uncertain terms that some mysteries of God will stay that way. Should we even try and go down this path? Today we have several views of scripture that relate to the way God deals with our free will and our salvation. These views seem to coexist without much problem. Why could the leaders in 325 just accept the nature of God as an unknown and allow for different views? I think the RCC at that time was in competition with many other beliefs and gods. Not much different than today’s world. I suspect they wanted a clear division between them (being Christian) and others. To say that the church did not know how the three in one relationship works was not acceptable to the men of the church.

Now in the meeting between Paul and Peter and the others the issue was how to apply an existing Law of Moses to the Gentiles. And following the promptings of the Holy Ghost they made the right decision. Contrast that with the council of Nicea where the very nature of God and the relationship between the Father and Son are being decided by men. You would think that the most important member at the meeting would be God. In the lead up to Paul’s meeting the Holy Ghost had laid down the ideas which would decide the outcome of the meeting. In Nicea men had been argueing with men for many years prior to the meeting. The ground work for the meeting was the work of men not of the Holy Ghost.

We must ask ourself the question: Are there stummbling blocks in scripture for us to fall on if we use our mind instead of our heart to interpret scripture? I say there are many and man has indeed stummbled on many.

1 Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Now the big issue. Was the RCC a top down run church? Did the members have the ability to remove the leaders? We find that the doctrine of the Nicolaitans had taken root before the meeting at Nicea. The fall of the church leadership was complete. The members could still pray to God but many handed over the control of their salvation to the church. This is the other half of the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. Just as the Jews had missed their day by not understanding and following Daniel the new church missed their opportunity to be God’s church on earth because they misread scripture and fell to the desires of men.

[Franktalk]

So what does a Church look like that is not apostate? I think if we ignore two thousand years of church and just look to scripture we can get an idea of what the Church is to be.

There was a time when man made an idol, it was a statue and the foot of the statue stuck out at the bottom of the idol. The big toe stuck out at just the right height. So when you went to worship the idol you bent down and kissed the toe of your idol. There are churches today that practice this same rite. People bend down and kiss the ring of a church leader. Does this seem right that some people act out what was a pagan rite? Are not the church leaders supposed to wash the feet of the members. If Christ showed us anything we are to be servants and not masters. We have but one master and one Father.

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

And just how many churches on the earth require the members to call the leaders father? And what of this command:

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Need I point out the churches which ignore this command from scripture.

Luk 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, also sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

Sounds like the number seventy is important.

1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Yet some do not.

Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Not infants.

I am tired. I will add more and write some comments later.

[Franktalk]

The Baptism of infants takes away the free choice of the individual. It also takes away an opportunity to receive the Holy Ghost in a formal way. Young children are like Adam and Eve in the garden. They know not right from wrong. They are sinless. Then there comes a day that they become accountable in this fallen world. The pressures of this world will make them sin. Then they have a choice to make. Do they follow the path of the world or do they follow the path of the spirit? Those who find God will follow His commandments. One of those is to be Baptized. An infant is not following the commandment from God. The parents are following the rules of their church. They are in essence taking away from their own child the act of Baptism.

I was Baptized as an infant. I have an old movie showing my proud parents returning from the church after my baptism. But in reading scripture I realized that what my parents did did not match the act found in scripture. I was to accept Christ and choose to become a Christian. I was to choose to wash off the world and become a new man.

There are several churches which Baptize infants.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

We are to gather together to pray. We should not gather together in front of an image to pray.

Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

There is a two fold lessen here. Those of faith would look to the brass serpent and live even knowing that a brass serpent could not cure them, they saw past the image to the power beyond the image, they were also following the words of Moses. But why a serpent? They were bitten by serpents so that makes some kind of sense but I think it was done for the future. Many years later some Jews would come to the brass serpent to pray to God. It got so bad that the leadership melted the brass serpent to destroy it. It had become a graven image that people would bow to. Notice also that to live you looked up to the image you did not bow down.

Today we can find some churches which parade graven images through the streets.

Exo 39:1 And of the blue, and purple, and scarlet, they made cloths of service, to do service in the holy place, and made the holy garments for Aaron; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Yet

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Many feel as do I that the leadership of the RCC is the woman who rides the beast. That is a different subject but the point here is that in the future someone who adorns them self with purple and scarlet will be the woman who rides the beast. But the big issue is that those who worked in the Holy place could wear the colors. It was to adorn the Holy place. The person is secondary. Yet today we see church leaders adorn them self with the colors. Then they parade them self around for all to see.

[The Nehor]

I have wondered why Christ was in such a hurry.Could He not have found a quieter time and lived about 80 years so as to establish a strong tradition and a firm organization before entering into the maelstrom of Jerusalem.Here's hoping your presentation can answer some of my questions.

I think the timing was ideal. You had a remarkably open world under the Roman Empire so missionaries could fan out everywhere. You had pretty much the closest thing to international religious freedom the ancient world had seen so far giving most hearers the ability to accept or reject the message freely.

Jesus probably could have done much more if he'd been quieter about it but that is almost never the way the gospel is spread. When the early saints of this dispensation suffered one of their worst setbacks and consolidation and hunkering down seemed like the prudent course we sent most of our leaders to Europe instead.

Also, I don't think Jesus or his followers expected the gospel to last. We are used to promises of continuity in our time. While the Church may fracture and suffer before the end the gospel will survive to see the Second Coming. When you read Isaiah's calling or Moses's closing discourses in Deuteronomy you get a taste of serious pessimism. No "field is white" for them. They expect things to fall apart. In this respect we have it easy.