The Apostate Church - The History

[Alan]

Although I concur that the apostacy began during the time of the Apostles, I believe that it was not complete until around 570 AD.

I do not find the argument compelling that the passing of the apostles resulted in an immediate apostacy, just as it wouldn't now. There were still Seventy's, Pariatch's (remember, a Pariarch is a prophet), and the apostles left instructions for the perpetuation of the office of Bishop as evidenced in Nibley's research. Apostacy crept into the church quite slowly in certain locations, more quickly elswhere. The Celtic Church in Britain benefitted from it's isolation and was, in my view, able to function with priesthood authority for many years. By 570 AD the church eventually died as to pristhood authority in both hemispheres and the dark ages commenced.

We have to remember that the church can be less than "full" in terms of authority, structure and offices, and still be authoritative. At the organisation of the church in 1830 there were no Quorums and no real structure, no keys, and only a handful of members. Yet is was the Lord's church and was able to operate with his authority.

Both the Apostolic Fathers and the later Church Fathers (as well as others) report miracles, visions, miraculous conversions and so on. So while is is true that some false teaching had infiltrated the church (as they do today) the church's integrity survived for some time. I have never felt the view that a first or second century total apostacy stood up to scutiny when all the evidence is considered.

[Franktalk]

Although I concur that the apostacy began during the time of the Apostles, I believe that it was not complete until around 570 AD.

I do not find the argument compelling that the passing of the apostles resulted in an immediate apostacy, just as it wouldn't now. There were still Seventy's, Pariatch's (remember, a Pariarch is a prophet), and the apostles left instructions for the perpetuation of the office of Bishop as evidenced in Nibley's research. Apostacy crept into the church quite slowly in certain locations, more quickly elswhere. The Celtic Church in Britain benefitted from it's isolation and was, in my view, able to function with priesthood authority for many years. By 570 AD the church eventually died as to pristhood authority in both hemispheres and the dark ages commenced.

We have to remember that the church can be less than "full" in terms of authority, structure and offices, and still be authoritative. At the organisation of the church in 1830 there were no Quorums and no real structure, no keys, and only a handful of members. Yet is was the Lord's church and was able to operate with his authority.

Both the Apostolic Fathers and the later Church Fathers (as well as others) report miracles, visions, miraculous conversions and so on. So while is is true that some false teaching had infiltrated the church (as they do today) the church's integrity survived for some time. I have never felt the view that a first or second century total apostacy stood up to scutiny when all the evidence is considered.

My focus is on Rome. You are very correct that pockets of the true Church could have survived for many years. Even in Rome there may have been pockets. God has a habit of keeping a remnant. The believing Christians in the Americas could be looked at as that remnant. Will we find additional remnants that will fill in the time lost in the Americas? Time will tell but I would not be surprised if they did indeed exist.

I think it is pretty safe to say that without God's help man falls pretty quickly. So in the Americas did God withdraw or did the level of faith fail? In some cases the faith of one person is enough for God to replant the ground. If indeed that is true then why did the believers in the Americas die off? Could it be that if they were there with an independent knowledge of Christ it would have provided too much evidence of God so man could come to God by evidence instead of faith? The rule of faith may be the guiding rule that rearranges events. To me that makes sense.

[LeSellers]

Although I concur that the apostacy began during the time of the Apostles, I believe that it was not complete until around 570 AD.

My focus is on Rome. You are very correct that pockets of the true Church could have survived for many years. Even in Rome there may have been pockets.

The fact is that the apostasy was not about doctrine, but about Priesthood keys. There could have been several "remnants" of truth vis-à-vis the Gospel, they could have existed into the XVIII, but they did not have the keys of the Priesthood, and could not have provided salvific ordinances to the people, irrespective of their fidelity to true doctrine.

We know, for example, that both Simeon and Anna (not to mention Zachariah and Elizabeth) lived surrounded by a state of total apostasy in 1 bc. Yet they were righteous enough to have received personal and individual revelation concerning the coming of Jesus and that they would see Him in the Temple. Their adherence to the Gospel (under the Law of Moses) is not proof there was no apostasy in Judah at the time. But there were not Priesthood keys, the High Priest was appointed by the Roman puppet Herod, the Pharisees and the Sadducees were corrupt. It took a restoration of those keys (on the Mount of Transfiguration) some 32~33 years later to change that. (John the Baptist had limited keys, but he did not have those of the Melchizedek Priesthood. He could not, e.g., ordain other Priests, nor could he bestow the Gift of the Holy Ghost.)

Just so, "pockets" of righteousness in Europe or Asia or Africa (or America) did not mean that there was no Apostasy, nor even that the apostasy was not total. When the keys are gone, they are gone: by this we may know assuredly that there was a total Apostasy.

Lehi

[zscipio]

The Baptism of infants takes away the free choice of the individual. It also takes away an opportunity to receive the Holy Ghost in a formal way. Young children are like Adam and Eve in the garden. They know not right from wrong. They are sinless. Then there comes a day that they become accountable in this fallen world. The pressures of this world will make them sin. Then they have a choice to make. Do they follow the path of the world or do they follow the path of the spirit? Those who find God will follow His commandments. One of those is to be Baptized. An infant is not following the commandment from God. The parents are following the rules of their church. They are in essence taking away from their own child the act of Baptism.

I was Baptized as an infant. I have an old movie showing my proud parents returning from the church after my baptism. But in reading scripture I realized that what my parents did did not match the act found in scripture. I was to accept Christ and choose to become a Christian. I was to choose to wash off the world and become a new man.

There are several churches which Baptize infants.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

We are to gather together to pray. We should not gather together in front of an image to pray.

Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

There is a two fold lessen here. Those of faith would look to the brass serpent and live even knowing that a brass serpent could not cure them, they saw past the image to the power beyond the image, they were also following the words of Moses. But why a serpent? They were bitten by serpents so that makes some kind of sense but I think it was done for the future. Many years later some Jews would come to the brass serpent to pray to God. It got so bad that the leadership melted the brass serpent to destroy it. It had become a graven image that people would bow to. Notice also that to live you looked up to the image you did not bow down.

Today we can find some churches which parade graven images through the streets.

Exo 39:1 And of the blue, and purple, and scarlet, they made cloths of service, to do service in the holy place, and made the holy garments for Aaron; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Yet

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Many feel as do I that the leadership of the RCC is the woman who rides the beast. That is a different subject but the point here is that in the future someone who adorns them self with purple and scarlet will be the woman who rides the beast. But the big issue is that those who worked in the Holy place could wear the colors. It was to adorn the Holy place. The person is secondary. Yet today we see church leaders adorn them self with the colors. Then they parade them self around for all to see.

[zscipio]

The apostate church history

The apostate church started way before the Apostles died. We see evidence in the written letters of the Apostles which clearly shows a drift from the correct structure of the church and the doctrines taught by the Apostles. What I would like to show is the sequence of steps that led to the downfall. There were additional misreads of scripture which helped the downfall as well. I will describe them as well. With this history of a past downfall we should be able to prevent events such as these from creeping into the LDS Church.

I have found a real lack of in depth knowledge of the apostate church. When I have asked exactly what is an apostate church I get very weak answers. So I have done my own study using scripture and the early church fathers to obtain the ideas and decisions which led to the downfall.

For those who are just coming to this subject let me state that an apostate church is one that has drifted from what it should be. As we go through the detail many will see the current LDS Church and you will see how the Church has been restored. The fall of the church is a big priority for Satan. He uses the weaknesses of men to slowly move the church from one form to another. I can tell you that when a Church is led by members which are led by the Holy Ghost then that Church will not fall. But if any other idea, being, or process is used to run a church it is doomed.

There is some opinion mixed in the details that I will present. Feel free to disagree but please offer your own opinions and reasons to the discussion.

So to start with let us look at what was happening while the Apostles were still spreading the Word.

John 6:26

26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Here Christ is talking about the crowd that followed Him after they were fed by a miracle where a few fish and little bread was used to feed a large crowd. The point is that the Words of the Lord did not bring the crowd back, the miracle did not bring the crowd back. What brought the crowd was the free meal that was offered. It was the weakness of the flesh which motivated the crowd. So here with Christ standing in front of them and miracles being performed the world was still stronger.

Matthew 16:23

23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Here Peter an Apostle of Christ is called out by Christ because of his weak moment. So the influence of Satan is strong and will act against the will of God. So how else do these weaknesses show up in the church? Let us use the seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation to supply us with some detail. Remember that John was on the Island Patmos when he wrote this Book so it would be around 90 AD.

Revelation 2

1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; ……

4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love…..

12And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; ……

14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate….

18And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write;………

20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Revelation 3

1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; ……

I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;…..

15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

So what do we have here. We have people leaving their first love, that would be the love of God. The doctrine of Balaam is where you allow some worldly treats into the church. The doctrine of the Nicolaitanes is two fold where you allow a church leader to rule over you, it also applies to the leader who allows this to happen as well. The comment on Jezebel refers to allowing a member to openly do wrong yet not be kicked out of the church. We also see that those who lack a zeal for God are not doing well in the eyes of the Lord. Last we have people who wrap themselves with the riches of the world yet starve their soul.

Now in John 6 and Matthew 16 these events were before Pentecost. But the problems in the churches in Revelation were after Pentecost. Sadly much of the same. But the church was growing and even with some problems the Holy Ghost managed to help many into salvation. More on a personal level than one on a church level. We will see that soon after 90 AD the thoughts of men started to form doctrine just as the Pharisees had before Christ came.

For the individuals it seems that the following applies:

Matthew 13:18-23

18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Hello Everyone,<br><br>Speaking of graven images.  The second commandment has 2 parts except for Roman Catholics. Which don't have this one at all.<br><br>1 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any  thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that  is in the water under the earth.<br>2 Thou shalt not bow down  thyself to them, nor serve them for I the LORD thy God am a jealous  God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the  third and fourth generation of them that hate me.<br><br>A graven image is a 3-D representation of a physical thing as opposed to a 2-D representation which is an  image or picture. <br><br>The LDS Church does not obey the first part as we make statues of the Christus  and put them in our visitor's centers and most bishops & stake leaders have them in their offices.  Also the angel Moroni is on our temples.<br><br>The LDS Church does obey the second part.  I am glad I am not a sculptor as that would be a big conflict.<br><br>When I was young, I'm 74,  the church had a ban on statuary except for the angel Moroni. I remember sitting in a church wide priesthood meeting and over the radio the LDS leaders changed the policy. What a surprise.<br><br>The way I have dealt with this contradiction is that the LDS Church is wrong on this point and some day it will change its mind & go back the way it was.  When I go for my recommend I always tell the interviewer that I believe the church is wrong & I have never been turned down for a recommend. <br><br>It is very black & white for me on graven images so I stay away from parts of the visitors' center and just feel uncomfortable in a church officials office where there is a graven image.<br><br>The problem I am having is with "or any likeness of any  thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that  is in the water under the earth'.   That seems to ban all graven images.  and I am still mulling that over.<br><br>Will someone give me their opinion?

[Franktalk]

Hello Everyone,<br><br>Speaking of graven images.  The second commandment has 2 parts except for Roman Catholics. Which don't have this one at all.<br><br>1 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any  thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that  is in the water under the earth.<br>2 Thou shalt not bow down  thyself to them, nor serve them for I the LORD thy God am a jealous  God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the  third and fourth generation of them that hate me.<br><br>A graven image is a 3-D representation of a physical thing as opposed to a 2-D representation which is an  image or picture. <br><br>The LDS Church does not obey the first part as we make statues of the Christus  and put them in our visitor's centers and most bishops & stake leaders have them in their offices.  Also the angel Moroni is on our temples.<br><br>The LDS Church does obey the second part.  I am glad I am not a sculptor as that would be a big conflict.<br><br>When I was young, I'm 74,  the church had a ban on statuary except for the angel Moroni. I remember sitting in a church wide priesthood meeting and over the radio the LDS leaders changed the policy. What a surprise.<br><br>The way I have dealt with this contradiction is that the LDS Church is wrong on this point and some day it will change its mind & go back the way it was.  When I go for my recommend I always tell the interviewer that I believe the church is wrong & I have never been turned down for a recommend. <br><br>It is very black & white for me on graven images so I stay away from parts of the visitors' center and just feel uncomfortable in a church officials office where there is a graven image.<br><br>The problem I am having is with "or any likeness of any  thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that  is in the water under the earth'.   That seems to ban all graven images.  and I am still mulling that over.<br><br>Will someone give me their opinion?

I believe the same as you. I bring up these issues and I am told that later leaders said it is OK. I have a problem with that. Is the world creeping into the Church? This is supposed to be a bottom up Church where the first step is the Holy Ghost. The next step are spirit filled members.

[zscipio]

I believe the same as you. I bring up these issues and I am told that later leaders said it is OK. I have a problem with that. Is the world creeping into the Church? This is supposed to be a bottom up Church where the first step is the Holy Ghost. The next step are spirit filled members.

Thanks for answering. By the way do you know why my last reply was unformatted and had a lot of HTML tags in it?

The people who want to just be told what to believe by their leaders and do not want to think about those things seem quite happy doing so. This is a very large % of the LDS church and one of the great strengths of the church. This attitude is fine if the leaders of the church are good men, which the current leaders of the LDS Church are. The problems occur when the leaders are not good men. For example the leaders of the Mormon sect known as the FLDS are not good men.

Any members of the any of the Mormon sects who are intellectuals are going to have a hard time because we will question what our leaders say. For the church to function well the % of members who are intellectuals can't be too large. I don't know what the best ratio of the 2 groups is but I suspect it's something like 10% vs 90%. When ever I am confronted by a "I-just-believer" I am very grateful for them because they are taking up one of the 9 out of 10 slots of the "I-just-believe" group and I have a better chance of staying in the 1 out of 10 group. For me it would be no fun being in the "I-just-believe" group.

Back to what seems to be the the second commandment's ban on all graven images. For me religious statuary is forbidden but I still have not made my peace with non-religious statuary. What are your thoughts on the subject?

[jo1952]

Hello Everyone,<br><br>Speaking of graven images.  The second commandment has 2 parts except for Roman Catholics. Which don't have this one at all.<br><br>1 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any  thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that  is in the water under the earth.<br>2 Thou shalt not bow down  thyself to them, nor serve them for I the LORD thy God am a jealous  God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the  third and fourth generation of them that hate me.<br><br>A graven image is a 3-D representation of a physical thing as opposed to a 2-D representation which is an  image or picture. <br><br>The LDS Church does not obey the first part as we make statues of the Christus  and put them in our visitor's centers and most bishops & stake leaders have them in their offices.  Also the angel Moroni is on our temples.<br><br>The LDS Church does obey the second part.  I am glad I am not a sculptor as that would be a big conflict.<br><br>When I was young, I'm 74,  the church had a ban on statuary except for the angel Moroni. I remember sitting in a church wide priesthood meeting and over the radio the LDS leaders changed the policy. What a surprise.<br><br>The way I have dealt with this contradiction is that the LDS Church is wrong on this point and some day it will change its mind & go back the way it was.  When I go for my recommend I always tell the interviewer that I believe the church is wrong & I have never been turned down for a recommend. <br><br>It is very black & white for me on graven images so I stay away from parts of the visitors' center and just feel uncomfortable in a church officials office where there is a graven image.<br><br>The problem I am having is with "or any likeness of any  thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that  is in the water under the earth'.   That seems to ban all graven images.  and I am still mulling that over.<br><br>Will someone give me their opinion?

I believe your concerns are warranted in accordance with your interpretation. I would wonder if any type of artwork created by man might possibly fall under the category of graven image - even when the purpose of that art is not supposed to be intended to be religious in nature, or to be worshipped. I would offer that the graven images being discussed in scripture are connected to the next verses - IOW, any graven image that is supposed to represent a "god" to us should never be made; especially, it should never be bowed down to or worshipped. Now, I would have to question therefore, statues which are made which represent Christ, as they are obviously representative of our Savior. However, inasmuch as we do not bow down to these images, or pray to them, perhaps we have avoided the second portion of the passages. Maybe I am just looking for an excuse; but we the LDS truly don't venerate these statues. I hope to never see an LDS mistakenly do so. As far as Moroni goes, we don't bow down and worship him, either. I think the purpose and intent of his statue is to point toward the location of the future New Jerusalem.

Protestants and Catholics, OTOH, DO wear crosses and/or or crucifixes to show their affiliation, belief and connection to God. To me this does cross the line. Protestants display crosses on the tops of their buildings and inside their chapels above their alters. The RCC buildings have statues, crosses, and crucifixes everywhere - which statues represent not only saints who they pray to, or are in the images of their venerated Popes, but also the Crucified Christ. They DO kneel and genuflect when they cross the path of the crucifix above their alters. The RCC Priests and nuns also prostrate themselves in front of the Pope (and possibly whomever is their ranking superior--though I admit ignorance as to the accuracy of my take on this), and kiss the ring of that superior. As I understand it, when a Priest takes his vows, he actually makes his promises to his superior, and not to Christ Himself. In fact, the Pope is considered to be the Vicar of Christ. IOW, the Pope represents the very Christ on the earth; even though the Bible clearly teaches us that Christ returned to be at the right hand of the Father, and that the Holy Ghost is the witness for Christ on the Earth.

So, is it the intent that is more important? I can't really say; but it does nag at me. I hope that the reason we have statues of Christ in our Visitor's Centers is not for the purpose of pleasing the world and trying to prove to the world that we DO believe in Christ. If that is the purpose, then we have crossed the line as well; because it was not done for a spiritual reason, but to please man.

Just some of my thoughts....

Best regards,

jo

[jo1952]

Thanks for answering. By the way do you know why my last reply was unformatted and had a lot of HTML tags in it?

I'm thinking it may be related to the problems that the Mormon Dialogue website has been experiencing.....

Regards,

jo

[Franktalk]

Back to what seems to be the the second commandment's ban on all graven images. For me religious statuary is forbidden but I still have not made my peace with non-religious statuary. What are your thoughts on the subject?

No statue is going to be an idol for me. No tree or rock, or the sun or a planet. They can all exist but they are just a thing. The problem comes if the Church allows a graven image. There will be some who will take the position that since the Church allows it it must mean something. These people may place more worth or value on the image than the Church intended. There is no reason to go down this path. We should just say no.