Does God Make Allowances For Losing Heart And Faith…

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

From the words of a poem…

Hear me Father as I cry,

Once again the question; Why!

Hold in thine, my trembling hand,

As now I seek to understand?

I wrote these words after a friend of ours lost their 15 year old son, and when she had asked me to bless him in the hospital room after he had died. That experience left me confused and angry, punching at walls.

Currently, there is thread running questioning the methods God employs; or “does not”. A very good soul who had sought higher education of the word of God now find himself in what I define as an “agnostic anger” (been there too many times), at (again) God “action or in-action”.

Some of the greatest scripture ever pinned by the Prophet Joseph Smith came as a result of this prayer…

D&C 121: 1-6

O God, where art thou? And where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place?

How long shall thy hand be stayed, and thine eye, yea thy pure eye, behold from the eternal heavens the wrongs of thy people and of thy servants, and thine ear be penetrated with their cries?

Yea, O Lord, how long shall they suffer these wrongs and unlawful oppressions, before thine heart shall be softened toward them, and thy bowels be moved with compassion toward them?

O Lord God Almighty, maker of heaven, earth, and seas, and of all things that in them are, and who controllest and subjectest the devil, and the dark and benighted dominion of Sheol—stretch forth thy hand; let thine eye pierce; let thy pavilion be taken up; let thy hiding place no longer be covered; let thine ear be inclined; let thine heart be softened, and thy bowels moved with compassion toward us.

Let thine anger be kindled against our enemies; and, in the fury of thine heart, with thy sword avenge us of our wrongs.

Remember thy suffering saints, O our God; and thy servants will rejoice in thy name forever.

How many times have you asked (all who care to answer)… O God, where art thou?

(and)

How do you think God “our Father” judges such moments?

Answer to Joseph’s prayer

Answer Continued

Edited July 13, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[rpn]

There aren't any consequences, ever, for asking Heavenly Father something.

[HeatherAnn]

Papa,

I imagine that was a really difficult experience for all involved.

How kind of you to be there for them when they needed you.

I have asked "O God where art thou"... unfortunately, it took so much emotional & physical pain to ask, but when I finally did, I had a beautiful experience.

"Be still and know that I am God." Sometimes it just takes being still.

We don't see the big picture, but we know that God does & trust in that.

I can't imagine losing a child - - it's my greatest fear & I don't know what I'd do or how I'd feel.

I've lost a baby in mid-pregnancy, which was difficult, so I got a sense of it - still brings tears to my eyes.

Then I remember beautiful spiritual experiences & feel comfort, hope & courage.

As for God judging us for questioning - I think it's the opposite.

God want us to SEEK... to question, to learn & progress - that's what God's purpose for us is, IMO.

Line-upon-line... being born again & again... to the gospel (good news).

Edited July 13, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Papa,

I imagine that was a really difficult experience for all involved.

How kind of you to be there for them when they needed you.

I have asked "O God where art thou"... unfortunately, it took so much emotional & physical pain to ask, but when I finally did, I had a beautiful experience.

"Be still and know that I am God." Sometimes it just takes being still.

We don't see the big picture, but we know that God does & trust in that.

I can't imagine losing a child - - it's my greatest fear & I don't know what I'd do or how I'd feel.

I've lost a baby in mid-pregnancy, which was difficult, so I got a sense of it - still brings tears to my eyes.

Then I remember beautiful spiritual experiences & feel comfort, hope & courage.

As for God judging us for questioning - I think it's the opposite.

God want us to SEEK... to question, to learn & progress - that's what God's purpose for us is, IMO.

Line-upon-line... being born again & again... to the gospel (good news).

Here is the entire poem that came out of that horrible night...

Thy Wondrous Plan

Hear me Father as I cry,

Once again the question; Why?

Hold in Thine my trembling hand

As now I seek to understand.

My once secure and sound belief,

Now shaken in this hour of grief

Hide not Thy face on yonder throne,

Draw near and leave me, not alone.

From this darkness, set me free,

With mortal eyes that cannot see.

A smaller part of a greater plan

Known to Thee, believed by man.

In whispered voice, we seek to bless

This precious child, now at rest.

Who more than us now understands

The mysteries of, Thy wondrous plan.

Oh my Father, I believe!

But questions come when we must grieve.

Hear me Father, as I pray.

Why this child? Why this day?

A still small voice, I now can hear

"Cheer up your heart and do not fear,

Hold in thine hand the iron rod

Be still and know that I am God"!

A child has brought me to this place

Where love and faith my fears erase.

Known to Thee, now known to man

The mysteries of, Thy wondrous plan.

Dedicated to: Brett Thomas Clarke

William E. Lee

[altersteve]

Beautiful poem, Pa Pa.

I've always thought that losing or struggling with faith is, for some people, a necessary experience. It happened to me and I'm sure it has happened to many others on this board. I believe that if it happens to you, then that means that Heavenly Father trusts you a lot more than you probably care to realize, because He "will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able" (1 Corinthians 10:13). Sometimes, unfortunately, people give in, even though the purpose of struggling with faith is to come out on the other side stronger than you were before.

I also believe that God will not judge us for questioning. I agree with HeatherAnn, that He wants us to sincerely question and learn. That's why we were put on this earth.

[KevinG]

There aren't any consequences, ever, for asking Heavenly Father something.

I don't know about that. He answered my prayers and ever since its been work, work, work!

Seriously on the OP. Christ's atonement is sufficient for our doubts and struggles. Having doubts is part of the natural course of life. What we are able to do in spite of them is a testament to our faithfullness.

I have had my share of petulant moments when God's revelations did not match my desires. God has been kind and patient with me.

I have a good Winston Churchill quote on my refrigerator. "If you are going through h***, keep going!"

Edited July 13, 2011 by DaddyG

[thesometimesaint]

Pa Pa:

All very natural and human emotions. It takes all of us time to become reconsiled to a loss of such magnituded. Though we will always remember the loved one who has passed. The feelings of abandoment do pass with time, and the healing the Lord does provide.

[CV75]

How do you think God “our Father” judges such moments?

I think He judges these moments according to the thoughts and intents of our hearts, and answers the question according to the spirit in which it is asked. Losing heart and faith are not the only motivators for this question.I think the question is an indicator that there is some faith working on some level.

Edited July 13, 2011 by CV75

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I don't know about that. He answered my prayers and ever since its been work, work, work!

Seriously on the OP. Christ's atonement is sufficient for our doubts and struggles. Having doubts is part of the natural course of life. What we are able to do in spite of them is a testament to our faithfullness.

I have had my share of petulant moments when God's revelations did not match my desires. God has been kind and patient with me.

I have a good Winston Churchill quote on my refrigerator. "If you are going through h***, keep going!"

Good point, even Christ himself asked this question of his Father; "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me".

[seriously honestly]

I have a good Winston Churchill quote on my refrigerator. "If you are going through h***, keep going!"

That's also a really good country song

[seriously honestly]

From the words of a poem…

I wrote these words after a friend of ours lost their 15 year old son, and when she had asked me to bless him in the hospital room after he had died. That experience left me confused and angry, punching at walls.

Currently, there is thread running questioning the methods God employs; or “does not”. A very good soul who had sought higher education of the word of God now find himself in what I define as an “agnostic anger” (been there too many times), at (again) God “action or in-action”.

Some of the greatest scripture ever pinned by the Prophet Joseph Smith came as a result of this prayer…

How many times have you asked (all who care to answer)… O God, where art thou?

(and)

How do you think God “our Father” judges such moments?

Answer to Joseph’s prayer

Answer Continued

With great understanding and love (remember, even Chrit cried out to Him).

[HeatherAnn]

Here is the entire poem that came out of that horrible night...

Thy Wondrous Plan

Hear me Father as I cry,

Once again the question; Why?

Hold in Thine my trembling hand

As now I seek to understand.

My once secure and sound belief,

Now shaken in this hour of grief

Hide not Thy face on yonder throne,

Draw near and leave me, not alone.

From this darkness, set me free,

With mortal eyes that cannot see.

A smaller part of a greater plan

Known to Thee, believed by man.

In whispered voice, we seek to bless

This precious child, now at rest.

Who more than us now understands

The mysteries of, Thy wondrous plan.

Oh my Father, I believe!

But questions come when we must grieve.

Hear me Father, as I pray.

Why this child? Why this day?

A still small voice, I now can hear

"Cheer up your heart and do not fear,

Hold in thine hand the iron rod

Be still and know that I am God"!

A child has brought me to this place

Where love and faith my fears erase.

Known to Thee, now known to man

The mysteries of, Thy wondrous plan.

Dedicated to: Brett Thomas Clarke

William E. Lee

I like that poem - a lot of feeling & perspective comes through!

Thanks for sharing it.

One part that stood out to me is "I believe, but questions come when we must grieve."

I think we naturally want to avoid pain, so maybe a part of us tries to deny or question why we & others suffer.

I also like how you included, "Be still and know that I am God" - awesome!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I like that poem - a lot of feeling & perspective comes through!

Thanks for sharing it.

One part that stood out to me is "I believe, but questions come when we must grieve."

I think we naturally want to avoid pain, so maybe a part of us tries to deny or question why we & others suffer.

I also like how you included, "Be still and know that I am God" - awesome!

I remember a line in a Star Trek (by far not the best one) when someone offered to take Captain Kirk’s pain. He replied; “I want my pain, I need my pain”; pain and suffering are without a doubt are character builders. But you are correct; it is natural (or the desire of the “Natural Man” to avoid these character building experiences. But when we put off the Natural man and embrace the Spiritual we too realize that we need our pain to grow. But we also need to know when to give that pain unto Christ. Oh the paradox of mortality.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

With great understanding and love (remember, even Chrit cried out to Him).

That brings up a serious theological question, how did “God” keep information from himself; kind of messes with the whole Trinitarian model. The prayer in John 17 where Christ prays too whom…his God?

“Go and tell my brethren that I go unto my father and your father, my God and your God” (too paraphrase).

Then in Christ absence he sends another to bring all things to our remembrance (again from John)…in the same book, Christ speaks only what the Father speaks and the Holy Spirit speaks only what Christ speaks. There is without a doubt a chain of subordination here. Christ had a will other than the Father’s. How could “one God” be in conflict, withhold information from himself, etc?

He cried out to his Father because that is who Elohiem is; in every way his Father and ours. He even cried Abba at one point, the equivalent of Daddy in our culture.

[Ares]

Becuase of the direction of this thread I've moved it to the social hall. Thanks!

[HeatherAnn]

I remember a line in a Star Trek (by far not the best one) when someone offered to take Captain Kirk’s pain. He replied; “I want my pain, I need my pain”; pain and suffering are without a doubt are character builders. But you are correct; it is natural (or the desire of the “Natural Man” to avoid these character building experiences. But when we put off the Natural man and embrace the Spiritual we too realize that we need our pain to grow. But we also need to know when to give that pain unto Christ. Oh the paradox of mortality.

I never was a huge Star Trek fan, but when I hear quotes like that, it makes me want to get the series!

That is a paradox... we need pain, yet we avoid it, which is healthy only to an extent.

I've heard that there's "clean pain" & "dirty pain."

Clean pain is that which is the necessary part of spiritual growth...that character builds, as you mentioned.

Dirty pain is that extra, unnecessary & even counter-productive pain.

I grew up with a lot of shame... too much, which became discouraging.

Yet, some shame is necessary to feel the desire to do better, so we feel more proud of our efforts in relation to our potential.

Edited July 14, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[seriously honestly]

That brings up a serious theological question, how did “God” keep information from himself; kind of messes with the whole Trinitarian model. The prayer in John 17 where Christ prays too whom…his God?

“Go and tell my brethren that I go unto my father and your father, my God and your God” (too paraphrase).

Then in Christ absence he sends another to bring all things to our remembrance (again from John)…in the same book, Christ speaks only what the Father speaks and the Holy Spirit speaks only what Christ speaks. There is without a doubt a chain of subordination here. Christ had a will other than the Father’s. How could “one God” be in conflict, withhold information from himself, etc?

He cried out to his Father because that is who Elohiem is; in every way his Father and ours. He even cried Abba at one point, the equivalent of Daddy in our culture.

Why the change of direction towards the Trinity? I was responding to the question of how God responds to our questioning, not discussing nature of God.

[bluebell]

That brings up a serious theological question, how did “God” keep information from himself; kind of messes with the whole Trinitarian model. The prayer in John 17 where Christ prays too whom…his God?

Modalism is the belief system that God and Christ are one person which existed in different 'modes'. Trinitariams, as far as i am aware, believe that modalism is a heresy.

Anytime anyone uses the 'was God praying to Himself?' arguement they are actually confusing modalism with Trinitarianism.

So, unless SeriouslyHonestly is a modalist (which i don't think she is), then you're asking the wrong person to explain how modalists work with the scriptures in question.

Edited July 14, 2011 by bluebell

[seriously honestly]

Modalism is the belief system that God and Christ are one person which existed in different 'modes'. Trinitariams, as far as i am aware, believe that modalism is a heresy.

Anytime anyone uses the 'was God paying to Himself?' arguement they are actually confusing modalism with Trinitarianism.

So, unless SeriouslyHonestly is a modalist (which i don't think she is), then you're asking the wrong person to explain how modalists work with the scriptures in question.

Nope, not a modalist

[Hughes]

That brings up a serious theological question, how did “God” keep information from himself; kind of messes with the whole Trinitarian model. The prayer in John 17 where Christ prays too whom…his God?

“Go and tell my brethren that I go unto my father and your father, my God and your God” (too paraphrase).

Then in Christ absence he sends another to bring all things to our remembrance (again from John)…in the same book, Christ speaks only what the Father speaks and the Holy Spirit speaks only what Christ speaks. There is without a doubt a chain of subordination here. Christ had a will other than the Father’s. How could “one God” be in conflict, withhold information from himself, etc?

He cried out to his Father because that is who Elohiem is; in every way his Father and ours. He even cried Abba at one point, the equivalent of Daddy in our culture.

And of course this isn't a problem for the Trinitarian view, rather exemplifies it.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

And of course this isn't a problem for the Trinitarian view, rather exemplifies it.

The idea that “one God manifest in three persons”…of course “one mind” can conceal information from “Himself”, or that this “one God manifest in three persons”, could have different wills, or learn; when he is supposed to know everything?

Yes it is a problem.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Modalism is the belief system that God and Christ are one person which existed in different 'modes'. Trinitariams, as far as i am aware, believe that modalism is a heresy.

Anytime anyone uses the 'was God praying to Himself?' arguement they are actually confusing modalism with Trinitarianism.

So, unless SeriouslyHonestly is a modalist (which i don't think she is), then you're asking the wrong person to explain how modalists work with the scriptures in question.

I am aware and she is not a modelist. The Book of Mormon suggests a Modelest, model (if that is not redundant).

Edited July 15, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Calm]

The Book of Mormon suggests a Modelest, model (if that is not redundant).

Not really. There are numerous passages that distinguish between the Father and the Son.

See for example: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=13&num=2&id=392

Edited July 15, 2011 by calmoriah

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Not really. There are numerous passages that distinguish between the Father and the Son.

See for example: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=13&num=2&id=392

Overall yes...but there is one specific that smacks of Modelism.

[Hughes]

The idea that “one God manifest in three persons”…of course “one mind” can conceal information from “Himself”, or that this “one God manifest in three persons”, could have different wills, or learn; when he is supposed to know everything?

Yes it is a problem.

If it's possible to walk around with our eyes closed, and not see things, even though we have eyes, it's not hard to understand the same principle at work with Jesus, as he "humbled himself and took on the form of a servant."

No problem.