Evangelizing At Lds Sites

[Doctor Ninja]

I would guess that about 80% of the doors i knocked on on my mission had those signs (they were prolific) and only twice did the person who answered the door get angry about us not heeding theirs.

We sometimes ended up inside the home sharing a first discussion with people who didn't think twice about us ignoring their signs and we did end up teaching a few people who were very interested in our message, that had the signs as well.

It does make it difficult to navigate such signs since the people who have them on their homes don't seem to agree about who they want to prevent coming to their door.

Good memories!

Funny how as missionaries where we would go. I look back now and wonder why we went down that drug infested street that had a murder the night before, dark alley with shady people, beware of the dog and firearms house and etc.. It was probably not the best idea to randomly drop by churches and seek out the leader to "talk to". Maybe the "deer in the headlights" look kept making us do it.

But in all seriousness, when we were bold and led by the Spirit, we ended up in places we never imagined that we would be. Good times!

[Doctor Ninja]

While I love my LDS wife........I won't be doing that one either.....lol

No longer "former"?

[blueadept]

No longer "former"?

She's never been "former" and will always be my wife, but the state of Calif has us as civilly divorced. Details...details. My church and I (and God IMO) recognize the marriage. That's all that matters.

[blueadept]

Good memories!

Funny how as missionaries where we would go. I look back now and wonder why we went down that drug infested street that had a murder the night before, dark alley with shady people, beware of the dog and firearms house and etc.. It was probably not the best idea to randomly drop by churches and seek out the leader to "talk to". Maybe the "deer in the headlights" look kept making us do it.

But in all seriousness, when we were bold and led by the Spirit, we ended up in places we never imagined that we would be. Good times!

From my experience, the best evangelizing efforts occurs in these runned down neighborhoods. At least that's been my Catholic experience in doing door-to-door evangelizing.

[Doctor Ninja]

She's never been "former" and will always be my wife, but the state of Calif has us as civilly divorced. Details...details. My church and I (and God IMO) recognize the marriage. That's all that matters.

Good! Well, I am glad you are here, look forward to your posts.

[AddamS]

Well, normally when there is a "no solicitation" sign then that means they aren't supposed to knock.

Also, if you want total privacy, you should move to the woods. What you are asking is unreasonable.

Are you saying if a neighbor knocked on your door to ask you something or invite you to dinner, you would think they are "bothering" you?

How is what a Missionary does any different?

I know my neighbors, we have an established relationship via meeting in public or having to resolve property issues that directly affect both of us. If my neighbors knock on my door it is either because we have a personal relationship or business to attend to. Do you really not see any difference between that and an uninvited stranger coming to your door to preach?

Yet, if you had a million dollars that you wanted to give away to people, you would most certainly go knock on their doors.

Please don't misrepresent yourself in order to try and win the argument. You know very well that if someone you know, especially someone you liked or was famous, you would not at all be upset that they knocked at your door. Are you really trying to tell us that if "Publishers ClearingHouse" knocked on your door to give you a million dollars, you would say "why are you bothering me"? Just like the Gospel, it's worth a million dollars to many people. You are free to be not interested in the million dollars, for maybe you already have your own million, such as your own ideology. But, that doesn't make it unreasonable to people to come to your home and ASK you something, and introduce themselves.

Strawman argument, you're setting up a hypothetical circustance and attacking it instead of the actual issue. As to if a celebrity I enjoyed or Publisher's Clearinghouse for came knocking my door goes; I can only say that if they just came by to say hi or had a check in hand I wouldn't look at it as an inconvenient interruption. However, if they showed up with the agenda of selling a tangible product or idea, it is just as rude. It's like spiritual panhandling, except they knock on your door instead of waiting for you to cross their paths in the street.

This is the real world, not Vampire stories. In the real world, people "interrupt" you and introduce themselves to you for MANY different kinds of things and reasons.

Yet, you don't have a cow that they do this. Thus, the ultimate conclusion is that you simply don't want to even have to deal with a pluralistic society that has religion in it. You don't want to see it, hear it, or anything unless YOU want to, on your own terms, etc. You've said as much yourself already.

I don't know what axe you have to grind here, but I can't see how a sensible person would argue that you shouldn't have the right to privacy and to not be disturbed in your own home for issues that don't pertain to invited business or an established personal relationship. I have no problem with churches of whatever denomination preaching within their walls. I have bit of a problem when people stand on the street and preach, but realize it is a PUBLIC forum and it is their right to do so. I'm all for whatever makes people happy but doesn't disturb others.

How about I come to your house to discuss how you should switch to Heinz Ketchup is next Sunday when you're trying to relax and spend time with your family? Then next Sunday I come by and talk about how I believe the three Star Wars prequels were substandard compared to the rest of the series so you should really only watch the original trilogy? Then the next week I came by to tell you about how Rachel Maddow is attractive in an odd way I just can't quite figure out and it would greatly benefit you to consider the same question? And so on... Would you consider this rude?

Yes, by nature that is true, but that is not what you said, and it's also not what missionary's do.

Well, which is it? Do missionaries try to present a way of life they believe is correct or not? I'm assuming they do

Missionary's teach a pro-message, not a negative one. You said they were teaching a negative one, similar to how anti-mormons go around teaching a negative one about whatever "cult" is their current target. Thus, you factually misrepresented the actions of LDS Missionary's. You should be more careful in your words.

I don't care what their message is, which is why I included JWs in my original post and Richard Dawkins in my second. I just don't want to be molested in the privacy of my own home for a non-tangible, subjective belief system. No matter how well mannered the person knocking at the door is, the action is plain rude.

I really think you're just arguing for the sake of arguing here. Sometimes people are unable to consider that a point of view coming from someone who doesn't hold dear what they do is automatically an attack instead of a different choice in lifestyle. So they get defensive and go on the attack with irrational arguments. I think this is what is happening here. I haven't posted anything about the LDS church being a bad thing, religion being a bad thing, or Missionaries being bad people. I just said that act of purposefully arriving at someone's private home and disturbing them to present a way of living is a rude activity. Even if it is done in a polite way. If you want to argue for the sake of arguing, at least argue against the crux of my point instead of accusing me of being unable of living in a society that allows for religion or telling me I don't have a right to privacy in my own home.

[bluebell]

Good memories!

Funny how as missionaries where we would go. I look back now and wonder why we went down that drug infested street that had a murder the night before, dark alley with shady people, beware of the dog and firearms house and etc.. It was probably not the best idea to randomly drop by churches and seek out the leader to "talk to". Maybe the "deer in the headlights" look kept making us do it.

But in all seriousness, when we were bold and led by the Spirit, we ended up in places we never imagined that we would be. Good times!

So true! We had this one street in one of my areas that was 'ghetto' and fairly dangerous, though not bad enough that we weren't allowed there. Of course, we had a lot of contacts and members that lived on that street so we were there often. One day, while trying to find a less active in an apartment complex, we ran into a group of what i can only describe as medium-core gang members hanging out in the parking lot. My companion-who was from new york and not one to be shy-walked right up to the group and asked them if they knew the person we were looking for. When they didn't, we ended up teaching them a first. They were very respectful and though none of them were interested, every time we were on that street after that and we saw someone from the group, they would always wave and tell us hello.

There's just something about being a missionary that get's you to be braver than you otherwise would be.

Edited July 1, 2011 by bluebell

[AddamS]

It does make it difficult to navigate such signs since the people who have them on their homes don't seem to agree about who they want to prevent coming to their door.

Perhaps I should make mine clear:

No Solicitation of goods, services, or Gods.

If you're here for these puposes you have been advised to leave the property.

If you do not leave, you are trespassing and will be reported to the police and charges filed.

Would that work?

I'm going to need a bigger door!

[Jeff K.]

I was just trying to be funny which I miserably failed at.

Truth be told. Just like you, we need antis, they do more good for the LDS Church than they realize or will admit. Plus it is sick entertainment on my end to work them up in a frenzy.

Kind of an intellectual post morten.

[bluebell]

Perhaps I should make mine clear:

No Solicitation of goods, services, or Gods.

If you're here for these puposes you have been advised to leave the property.

If you do not leave, you are trespassing and will be reported to the police and charges filed.

Would that work?

I'm going to need a bigger door!

Yep, i think that would definitely work!

[ERMD]

I know many of you have mentioned the method (the screechers and some who are rude and disrespectful) as being the main problem, so I was wondering if that is the main complaint...or is it just, generally, not a good idea to proseltyze at Temples and other LDS places.

Would it be as bad, to, simply, have people standing outside the gates quietly handing out tracts or CD's that people can take or leave? (and read or watch, later, if they care to?) Or is it just an inappropriate thing to do, no matter how it's done?

I served my mission in a very Catholic country. On P-day we would go do the tourist thing on occasion and would sometimes go to some of the beautiful, historic cathedrals and basilicas.

I would never have considered proselyting there, and there were mission guidelines that prohibited it, out of respect for the believers.

[blueadept]

Good! Well, I am glad you are here, look forward to your posts.

FYI. Even though I've always been raised a Catholic, I'm also, technically, a 6th generation Mormon on my father's side. I have closer ties to the LDS church than my wife IMO who is the only LDS member (temple-worthy) in a large Catholic family.

[Libs]

I served my mission in a very Catholic country. On P-day we would go do the tourist thing on occasion and would sometimes go to some of the beautiful, historic cathedrals and basilicas.

I would never have considered proselyting there, and there were mission guidelines that prohibited it, out of respect for the believers.

I am glad to hear that and not surprised, at all, that the LDS Church has that policy. I wish that kind of respect would be, more often, returned.

[Yirgacheffe]

I would say yes – as long as they keep off of private, church-owned property.

Even if while on church-owned property they are courteous and just ask people if they want to learn more about their beliefs?

[Mark Beesley]

What do you think about the evangelizing, done by critics of Mormonism, at various LDS sites, like Manti or the SLC Temple gates?

-Do they have a constitutional right to be there, in your opinion?

-Should they be there? Are they fulfilling the "Great Commission" or, possibly, missing the mark, by turning people off to their message?

-Do you see the evangelizing as a threat to the church?

-Have you ever had an encounter with an evangelist, at one of these locations? If so, how did it go?

The first time I encountered an anti-Mormon evangelist was just outside Temple Square when I was about 16 years old (yeah, they were active 40 years ago). The thrust of the discussion was polygamy, and he was trying to show me that the Book of Mormon condemned polygamy. I came away singlularly impressed with ability of the anti-Mormon to read a portion of the Book of Jacob to suppport his argument while ignoring the clear caveat included in the Book that would allow for polygamy. Unfortunately, I have not found that anti-Mormons arguments have changed much over the years.

[LeSellers]

Even if while on church-owned property they are courteous and just ask people if they want to learn more about their beliefs?

I have never run into any of them (nor heard of any) who operate in this manner.

But, even were that to happen (not holding my breath, mind you), it would still be wrong. Would you say it was reasonable for a car salesman to go onto another company's lot and try to convince a shopper that the Dodges they offer here are not as good as the Fords he sells across the street?

Furthermore, any property owner has the legitimate (but all too frequently ignored or crushed) right to control the content of any speech on his property. So, even were you to assert that the Ford guy had the right to sell his product on the Dodge dealer's lot, the Church still has the right to deny an Evangelical (or anyone else) the privilege of "evangelizing" on property she owns or controls.

Lehi

[thesometimesaint]

Yirgacheffe:

I don't see the point no matter how courteous they were.

Say you're interested in hearing what the Ford salesman has to say. You go to a Ford sales lot to hear the Ford sales pitch.

Would you really appreciate a Chevy salesman to come up to you, no matter how courteous they are, and start giving you the Chevy sales pitch?

[Yirgacheffe]

I don't see why a church should be granted a special private property no proselytizing unless the same is given to all private property.

[Hamba Tuhan]

-Do they have a constitutional right to be there, in your opinion?

In America, yes.

-Should they be there? Are they fulfilling the "Great Commission" or, possibly, missing the mark, by turning people off to their message?

I served in a district on my mission with an older couple who had earlier served at the Hill Cumorah Visitors Centre. They related to us once how they had noticed one particular day that fewer people had come into the centre and that those who had come in had fewer quetions and seemed less interested. Then, when they drove away to get some lunch, they noticed that the man who normally stood across the road handing out anti-Mormon fliers was missing that day. He was missing the next day as well, with seemingly similar impacts noticed in the visitors centre. On the third morning, the missionaries all joked that the 'evangelist' must have returned because there were so many more visitors and they were quite noticeably more interested than they had been the previous two days. Sure enough, on their way to lunch, this couple saw the regular man standing across the road handing out his fliers, so they stopped and chatted with him.

They asked him where he'd been, afraid that he'd been sick. It turned out, however, that he'd simply run out of money with which to pay for photocopies, and he'd had to wait til more funds arrived at his 'ministry' to allow him to proceed. Having discussed it over lunch, the missionary couple, when they returned to the visitors centre, stopped to talk to the man again. If he ever ran out of money for photocopies again, they suggested, he should come find them in the visitors centre since they'd be happy to given him whatever money he needed.

I later noticed something similar in the same district. My companion, a brand-new missionary, and I had been working with all our might with no success. We couldn't even give a Book of Mormon away for months on end. (We did give one to a lady one day at the doorstep, but, when we returned for the arranged follow-up visit, she'd placed the book in a plastic shopping bag with a note explaining that she didn't want to rock the boat with her family and hung it on the door handle.) Then one P-day, whilst doing our washing at a laundromat, we noticed a large ad in the local newspaper announcing that a 'counter-cult specialist' had moved into our small town and would start offering information seminars about the evils of 'Mormonism.' During the next two months, we not only gave away a number of Book of Mormons, but we also taught and baptised two families.

-Do you see the evangelizing as a threat to the church?

No, see above.

Edited July 2, 2011 by Hamba Tuhan

[LeSellers]

I don't see why a church should be granted a special private property no proselytizing unless the same is given to all private property.

It was never "given". It is inherent in the ownsership of property. Anyone can control speech one property he owns or controls (absent the owner's express will on the mattrer).

That does not mean that I cannot go a a person's house, for instance, and offer to speak on a subject he has not notified me as being off-limits. I have the right to go to his house propose to speak. He has the right to tell me no.

However, there is an implicit assertion of a right to deny certain types of speech, i.e., speech specifically against my interests, ipso facto.

Lehi

[Hamba Tuhan]

No Solicitation of goods, services, or Gods.

If you're here for these puposes you have been advised to leave the property.

If you do not leave, you are trespassing and will be reported to the police and charges filed.

I served my mission in America. When we arrived, my mission president, who'd worked as a lawyer, issued us all with a shrunk-down copy of the US Supreme Court ruling which established that there exists a constitutional right for religious persons to take their message to people's homes. I don't remember the full text of what was on the paper, naturally, but I remember that two points it made was that front doors were an open invitation for people, including strangers, to visit and that sharing a religious message did not fit any definition of soliciting as long as reading materials or other goods were not being sold.

Thankfully, I served in possibly the most polite corner of the entire country, and I can literally count only on the fingers of one hand the number of times in two years that anyone was unkind to me in any way. One of those was a cranky old man who opened the door and informed us that we had no legal right to be bothering him at his home. We politely apologised for 'bothering' him and just as politely pointed out to him that we did indeed have a protected right to attempt to share our message house-to-house. This infuriated him, and he said he had half a mind to ring the local police chief and report us.

He was surprised when I told him that I thought that was a very good idea. He then told us to wait there til he got back, and he stepped inside to make the phone call. About five minutes later he came back and invited us to leave, which we happily did, but not before I asked him what the chief of police had told him. At least he was honest; he told us that he'd been advised to let us in and listen to our message.

The police chief just happened to be our bishop.

[BCSpace]

What do you think about the evangelizing, done by critics of Mormonism, at various LDS sites, like Manti or the SLC Temple gates?

Parable of the Sower. It's part of the plan and a necessary evil.

-Do they have a constitutional right to be there, in your opinion?

Generally no.

-Should they be there?

If they are interested in a higher degree of salvation, no.

Are they fulfilling the "Great Commission"

No. There are two churches only and only LDS are part of the body of Christ.

or, possibly, missing the mark, by turning people off to their message?

Yes, except for the few who will fall as per the Parable of the Sower.

-Do you see the evangelizing as a threat to the church?

No. It makes the Church stronger, both as indivual members being subjected to it and by the publicity it brings to the Church as a whole.

-Have you ever had an encounter with an evangelist, at one of these locations? If so, how did it go?

I destroy them in debate. One knows this has occured when they change the subject.

Edited July 1, 2011 by BCSpace

[AddamS]

I served my mission in America. When we arrived, my mission president, who'd worked as a lawyer, issued us all with a shrunk-down copy of the US Supreme Court ruling which established that there exists a constitutional right for religious persons to take their message to people's homes.

Thank you for the information.

I'd be interested in what that ruling was.

Maybe I need to get rid of my front door?

[Libs]

In America, yes.

I served in a district on my mission with an older couple who had earlier served at the Hill Cumorah Visitors Centre. They related to us once how they had noticed one particular day that fewer people had come into the centre and that those who had come in had fewer quetions and seemed less interested. Then, when they drove away to get some lunch, they noticed that the man who normally stood across the road handing out anti-Mormon fliers was missing that day. He was missing the next day as well, with seemingly similar impacts noticed in the visitors centre. On the third morning, the missionaries all joked that the 'evangelist' must have returned because there were so many more visitors and they were quite noticeably more interested than they had been the previous two days. Sure enough, on their way to lunch, this couple saw the regular man standing across the road handing out his fliers, so they stopped and chatted with him.

They asked him where he'd been, afraid that he'd been sick. It turned out, however, that he's simply run out of money with which to pay for photocopies, and he'd had to wait til more funds arrived at his 'ministry' to allow him to proceed. Having discussed it over lunch, the missionary couple, when they returned to the visitors centre, stopped to talk to the man again. If he ever ran out of money for photocopies again, they suggested, he should come find them in the visitors centre since they'd be happy to given him whatever money he needed.

I later noticed something similar in the same district. My companion, a brand-new missionary, and I had been working with all our might with no success. We couldn't even give a Book of Mormon away for months on end. (We did give one to a lady one day at the doorstep, but, when we returned for the arranged follow-up visit, she'd placed the book in a plastic shopping bag with a note explaining that she didn't want to rock the boat with her family and hung it on the door handle.) Then one P-day, whilst doing our washing at a laundromat, we noticed a large ad in the local newspaper announcing that a 'counter-cult specialist' had moved into our small town and would start offering information seminars about the evils of 'Mormonism.' During the next two months, we not only gave away a number of Book of Mormons, but we also taught and baptised two families.

No, see above.

Interesting stories, HT. Thanks for sharing those.

[thesometimesaint]

Expositor:

Keep your front door. Who knows it may even stop something from getting in that you don't want. We have the right to speak, you have the right not to listen.

"I disagree with what you say but, I would defend to the death, your right to say it".

Attributed to Voltair.