Lds Restoration Theology

[elguanteloko]

Christ's mission was to complete the Atonement. He was sent to the time and the environment which would help that to be possible. Joseph Smith's mission was to restore the Gospel. He was sent to the time and the environment which would help that to be possible.

There is nothing odd about it, except that you didn't get this yourself and that it had to be explained.

Go back to page 1 where those problems are addressed by me and fatherofone.

[Doctor Steuss]

Why did God wait 1,600 years or so to give a good answer?

Hi Mudcat. I hope you’ll forgive my curmudgeonly response (I usually try to keep this stuff to myself), but I think the answer (if there is one) would possibly be along similar lines as the answers (if there are any) to these (potentially salvation and prayer related) questions:

Why did G-d wait as long as He did prior to speaking to Moses?

Why did G-d wait as long as He did prior to giving the world the writings of Isaiah?

Why did G-d wait as long as He did prior to giving the world a Savior?

Why has G-d waited so long for the Second Coming (and why didn't He mention that there would be a Second Coming to any of His prophets that foretold of the Messiah)?

Why did G-d wait as long as He did prior to inspiring the creation of nougat?

Hopefully you can find, or already have satisfactory answers to these questions, because they have certainly eluded me (in particular, the parenthetical question/statement of the fourth question).

Hope you've been rockin' and rollin',

Stu

[bluebell]

Go back to page 1 where those problems are addressed by me and fatherofone.

I read them.

[elguanteloko]

I read them.

Then, why say something I already responded to? If you have problems with what I'm saying at least say something different or clarify something.

[Kiviuq]

The Protestant Reformation at the time of Martin Luther could be seen as successful in correcting many of the problems with Catholicism at that time. You could see it as necessary preparation to the LDS Restoration, or ask the same question as the OP. It could have been a good time to restore the gospel. Evidently the people were open and ready for a “correction”.

Buddha spent his entire life seeking spiritual enlightenment. Imagine what the world would be like today if God had directed him to proclaim a true gospel.

[bluebell]

Then, why say something I already responded to? If you have problems with what I'm saying at least say something different or clarify something.

Mostly because i didn't have the time to do more than simply respond to your first point. Since your subsequent posts didn't seem to be a valid arguement against my statement, i figured i didn't need to address them for my point to be relevant.

[elguanteloko]

Mostly because i didn't have the time to do more than simply respond to your first point. Since your subsequent posts didn't seem to be a valid arguement against my statement, i figured i didn't need to address them for my point to be relevant.

You could explain why they are not valid or good. I'm waiting for you.

[cdowis]

If God had to wait so much time for a fertile ground for mormonism... why did he send Christ in such a hostile environment?

Those who have an understanding of the atonement of Christ understand the answer to that question.

There is no quickie answer to the unbeliever, but you might start your search for an answer by reading "Jesus the Christ" by Talmadge, especially the first few chapters. That is, if you really want an answer.

I don't get how God sends prophets to incredibly hostile lands (if we believe the stories) but decides that mormonism has to wait about 1600 years. Rather odd, don't you guys think?

I could try to give you an answer, but, frankly, you probably would not make the effort to understand it.

[fatherofone]

Those who have an understanding of the atonement of Christ understand the answer to that question.

There is no quickie answer to the unbeliever, but you might start your search for an answer by reading "Jesus the Christ" by Talmadge, especially the first few chapters. That is, if you really want an answer.

I could try to give you an answer, but, frankly, you probably would not make the effort to understand it.

I would definitely make the effort to understand the answer, I have read "Jesus the Christ" several times, and I still do not understand. That being said every attempt to introduce Christianity has failed except one....I will definitely make the effort tho, if you are willing to explain

[cdowis]

The problem I always had was, "Why would there be an apostasy in the first place?" I see no evidence for it outside of Mormonism's assertions that such took place.

1. May I suggest that you read Nibley's "The World and the Prophets". He gives excellent insights on the "why" with an interesting historical perspective.

2. It is really an issue of becoming intimately familiar with the history of the Christian church. Compare what Paul tells us in Ephesians about the church, with what happened to the church shortly before his death.

[elguanteloko]

Those who have an understanding of the atonement of Christ understand the answer to that question.

There is no quickie answer to the unbeliever, but you might start your search for an answer by reading "Jesus the Christ" by Talmadge, especially the first few chapters. That is, if you really want an answer.

I've read "Jesus the Christ" but that's a rather long book. What about it do you think is an answer to my objections?

I could try to give you an answer, but, frankly, you probably would not make the effort to understand it.

Well, I can only give you my word that I will put my best effort in understanding and thinking about the answer you give me. That's all I can do against a cynic, really.

[Calm]

living in the US without a summer home in Canada!

My dream....but only because it's too dark up north during winter, don't mind the cold and snow.

[cdowis]

You are missing the point, BMT. When does the Lord stop protecting his servants so as to say that in one situation he can't protect them and has to wait and in another situation he sends them and protects them?

Search Alma 14, and think carefully on what it says..... you will begin to find an answer, if you are really interested in the answer.

The BOM has the answer to your questions, but you have to pay the price to find it.

[elguanteloko]

Search Alma 14, and think carefully on what it says..... you will begin to find an answer, if you are really interested in the answer.

The BOM has the answer to your questions, but you have to pay the price to find it.

I just read Alma 14. The point of my question, however, is with regards to "the field being ready" and "God protecting his servants" (BOTH situations in contrast with one another). What I'm asking goes beyond the question "Why does the Lord let his servants suffer?" which is what that chapter seems to talk about (it talks about other things but they don't seem relevant).

I hope the focus of my question is clearer now. If it isn't please let me know and I'll explain some more.

[Duncan]

My dream....but only because it's too dark up north during winter, don't mind the cold and snow.

Northern Ontario, Lake of the Woods! course it a touch expensive!! Golden, BC is nice too, but not close to anything and who wants to like the Vancouver Canucks anyways? but that is another matter!

[Calm]

Northern Ontario, Lake of the Woods! course it a touch expensive!! Golden, BC is nice too, but not close to anything and who wants to like the Vancouver Canucks anyways? but that is another matter!

Good suggestion. Found the spot I want: http://www.amazingho..._photo_1438.jpg

(sorry for the derail...bored tonight, think I'll go get a good book.)

[Duncan]

Good suggestion. Found the spot I want: http://www.amazinghomesandproperties.com/_wdp_images/properties/imagefile/225/prop_photo_1438.jpg

ha! Looks like where I am! with all our flooding...

[Mudcat]

Joseph received an answer that was precisely commensurate with:

1. Joseph’s faith and ability to be obedient to the commandments he received (1 Corinthians 10:13);

2. Joseph’s calling and foreordination to be the Prophet of the restoration (Jeremiah 1:5); and

3. The Lord’s timing for the beginning of the “dispensation of the fullness of times.” (Acts 2:17.)

Those who offered up similar prayers in the preceding 1600 years, received answers consistent with the same principles.

Hi Okrahomer,

First off... welcome to the forum. Secondly, thanks for your thoughts on this.

I would question your first point a bit as it interplays with your statement about those who prayed similarly over the preceding 1600 years. For one, you seem to placing JS on a pedestal of obedience that others fell perhaps fell short of. I think that is speculation and I think there are fair examples that JS wasn't completely obedient.

On point 2, I do take a different look at Jer 1:5 than the interpretation you have posited. However, assuming you are correct for the moment, I want to toss out an option... If the LDS paradigm is correct and as it relates to the notion that our physical bodies are vessels of the spirit that God implants in them, then it stands to reason that JS could have come along well before the point he did.

If a restoration needed to occur, why not bring JS into play right after the Diocletian persecutions. He could have potentially shifted the focus of the Council of Nicaea and cut 14-1500 years out of the loop, as well.

On point 3, I think you should take a look at that verse again. It makes explicit statements about the prophecy of women.. I don't think the CoJCoLDS has canonized any statements of women that have prophesied. If the prophecy of women is a qualifier for the fullness of times, then what do you think it means?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[CV75]

I am doubtful that similar prayers weren't uttered by many under the same auspices across that time. Why did God wait 1,600 years or so to give a good answer?

The push for the restoration was to prepare for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ by restoring the priesthood keys that had been removed from mortals.

Yes, it makes sense that many prayed for such a day, and with faith. It makes sense that many prayed about which Church to join.

The reason God waited to answer these prayers in the same way He answered Joseph’s is that only He knows the day and the hour of Christ’s coming; Joseph was foreordained to perform his role at the strategically expedient time and place; Joseph exercised the faith necessary at that time and place to receive the answer.

[Okrahomer]

Hi Okrahomer,

First off... welcome to the forum. Secondly, thanks for your thoughts on this.

I would question your first point a bit as it interplays with your statement about those who prayed similarly over the preceding 1600 years. For one, you seem to placing JS on a pedestal of obedience that others fell perhaps fell short of. I think that is speculation and I think there are fair examples that JS wasn't completely obedient.

On point 2, I do take a different look at Jer 1:5 than the interpretation you have posited. However, assuming you are correct for the moment, I want to toss out an option... If the LDS paradigm is correct and as it relates to the notion that our physical bodies are vessels of the spirit that God implants in them, then it stands to reason that JS could have come along well before the point he did.

If a restoration needed to occur, why not bring JS into play right after the Diocletian persecutions. He could have potentially shifted the focus of the Council of Nicaea and cut 14-1500 years out of the loop, as well.

On point 3, I think you should take a look at that verse again. It makes explicit statements about the prophecy of women.. I don't think the CoJCoLDS has canonized any statements of women that have prophesied. If the prophecy of women is a qualifier for the fullness of times, then what do you think it means?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Hi Mudcat:

Thanks for the greeting and response. I am more of a "lurker" here than a poster, but I did appreciate your original post (OP?) and felt motivated to attempt a response (halting as it was.) With respect to your specifics:

1.

[Questing Beast]

1. May I suggest that you read Nibley's "The World and the Prophets". He gives excellent insights on the "why" with an interesting historical perspective.

2. It is really an issue of becoming intimately familiar with the history of the Christian church. Compare what Paul tells us in Ephesians about the church, with what happened to the church shortly before his death.

I have the Nibley collection and have read all of the original set (plus one; if there are subsequent volumes, I have not bothered).

I am "familiar" with Christian history. And the verses in the Epistles that (we) missionaries use(d) to show a prophesied apostasy. But I just don't see a fulfillment of any of them in the history that unfolded. "Grievous wolves", et al. the apostates were already manifesting during the first generation of Primitive Christianity. As limited as they were in their travel capability, and thus their control, over the spreading new religion, it was only to be expected that the apostles would be pessimistic about the fate of their efforts to hold a united church together. Impossible, in fact, and they knew it; thus we have the few references warning about bad/apostasy times to come.

Nibley, et al. the believers in "the great apostasy" (a plank doctrine of the Restored Church) of course see history in that light. But to one who has shared that same religious historical world view, but now accepts a different one, the "doctrine" of the great apostasy is nothing more than an interpretation of history. Other views are just as valid (or invalid as the case may be). And my view today says that history is largely comprised of agenda-driven manipulation. We cannot easily or even possibly know what actually occurred in the distant and receding past. All we can go on is the world as it is around us (confusing enough!); and that world shows me that Christianity is largely an individual matter: each person is required to mold their personal religion separate from all historical, religious dogmatic claims.

Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, each have their spin on what happened and why. If there ever was a great apostasy it is correctable by individual communication with "God". I don't believe that religion where "God" is concerned has ever been different than what we see today, and I include paganism and all other religious paradigms down the ages....

[Okrahomer]

Hi Okrahomer,

First off... welcome to the forum. Secondly, thanks for your thoughts on this.

I would question your first point a bit as it interplays with your statement about those who prayed similarly over the preceding 1600 years. For one, you seem to placing JS on a pedestal of obedience that others fell perhaps fell short of. I think that is speculation and I think there are fair examples that JS wasn't completely obedient.

On point 2, I do take a different look at Jer 1:5 than the interpretation you have posited. However, assuming you are correct for the moment, I want to toss out an option... If the LDS paradigm is correct and as it relates to the notion that our physical bodies are vessels of the spirit that God implants in them, then it stands to reason that JS could have come along well before the point he did.

If a restoration needed to occur, why not bring JS into play right after the Diocletian persecutions. He could have potentially shifted the focus of the Council of Nicaea and cut 14-1500 years out of the loop, as well.

On point 3, I think you should take a look at that verse again. It makes explicit statements about the prophecy of women.. I don't think the CoJCoLDS has canonized any statements of women that have prophesied. If the prophecy of women is a qualifier for the fullness of times, then what do you think it means?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Mudcat, sorry for the previous "half-baked" post. (I'm afraid I don't know how to edit or delete anything here.)

Back to your specifics:

1. I agree with your criticism: my poorly worded statement #1 does seem to place Joseph on a bit of a pedestal, and there are fair examples of his imperfections. I should have stated my beliefs in more general terms. Perhaps this will make a bit more sense: My belief is that the Lord will give His children answers to prayer to which their subsequent obedience is at least possible. An individual's "capability" for obedience is as much dependent upon external conditions (such as the point in human history during which the answer is given) as it is personal righteousness. I did not mean to imply that Joseph was more righteous than others who offerred up similar prayers.

2. My understanding of Jeremiah 1:5 is that it is an example of "foreordination." For me, the Lord is telling the prophet Jeremiah, that He ordained Jeremiah "before he was born" to fulfill a particular prophetic calling at a specific time in the course of human history. I believe Joseph Smith was similarly "foreordained." I believe the Lord foreordained both Jeremiah and Joseph, according to His "foreknowledge" of human events. I don't know if this particular Baptist guide carries any weight with you, but I think its explanation of the relationship between "foreordination, foreknowledge, and moral freedom" (free agency) comes close to my own beliefs: My link

3. Thank you for noticing the reference error under statement #3. I should have referred to Ephesians 1:10, which mentions "the fulness of times" specifically. I apologize for the error. Nevertheless, I am interested in your understanding of Acts 2:17:

First: Are you sure it is referring only to the "prophecy of women"?

“And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.”

I looked at several versions online, but none of them seem to limit this event to women. Did you perhaps have another scripture in mind?

Second: I think your question about the implications of prophetic women in the last days would make for quite an interesting discussion.

[mercyngrace]

ETA: The Atonement could have been any suffering, though. All Christ needed for the Atonement was to pray and suffer a lot... but that wasn't God's plan, of course...

Whose doctrine is this? It certainly isn't LDS theology.

[elguanteloko]

Whhose doctrie is this? It certainly isn't LDS theology.

Not LDS "theology", but doctrine certainly. Christ came to suffer for the sins of this world. If you bring up, like others here, that he came to fulfill the prophesies, I'll tell you that the prophesies weren't necessary, really. Prophesies were bound to say anything God's plan was going to be. The only thing necessary (supposedly) was Christ's suffering.

[elguanteloko]

The push for the restoration was to prepare for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ by restoring the priesthood keys that had been removed from mortals.

Yes, it makes sense that many prayed for such a day, and with faith. It makes sense that many prayed about which Church to join.

The reason God waited to answer these prayers in the same way He answered Joseph’s is that only He knows the day and the hour of Christ’s coming; Joseph was foreordained to perform his role at the strategically expedient time and place; Joseph exercised the faith necessary at that time and place to receive the answer.

all this says is that "God chose it to be at that time". not that helpful of an answer.