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Lds Restoration Theology


Mudcat

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Seems the main push of the LDS Restoration was to reestablish a mortal Church leader(Prophet), Apostles, the Priesthood, Church governance through revelation, Salvific ordinances and so forth. All this came about through revelation by God to JS and then others.. and so on. (this is a summary, and misses much, but hopefully it isn't a mischaracerization)

Here is the issue I have.

Assuming that most of the LDS posters I have heard here are correct that the apostasy occurred 1st or 2nd century. Then that leaves at least 1,600 year gap between anyone Christian having a baptism or any other ritual that was effective for that time.

Joseph Smith's starting point on restoring all this, seems to be a prayer related James 1:5 and the subsequent answer he posited he received.

I am doubtful that similar prayers weren't uttered by many under the same auspices across that time. Why did God wait 1,600 years or so to give a good answer?

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If I am not mistaken, the timing is tied in with the establishment of a democracy here in the United States. Freedom from religious persecution (idealistically, anyway) which created a fertile environment for spreading the gospel.

That's what I heard from various LDS. Not sure if that is an official explanation or not?

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I agree with the others that in my mind God worked through the conditions as they were and prepared men to receive the Gospel. If Parley P. and Orson were running around England or Germany in the 16th century they would have been dead inside of a week. I think the conditions had to be so that the Gospel would have grown on fertile soil and as it was the restoration wasn't exactley easy given the timing, with mobs and all that business. I have heard people say that satan inspired the various religious people before Joseph Smith and I think that is complete nonsense, I think Satan has been inspiring before and since Joseph Smith!

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If God had to wait so much time for a fertile ground for mormonism... why did he send Christ in such a hostile environment? I don't get how God sends prophets to incredibly hostile lands (if we believe the stories) but decides that mormonism has to wait about 1600 years. Rather odd, don't you guys think?

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If God had to wait so much time for a fertile ground for mormonism... why did he send Christ in such a hostile environment? I don't get how God sends prophets to incredibly hostile lands (if we believe the stories) but decides that mormonism has to wait about 1600 years. Rather odd, don't you guys think?

I would agree with that, seems extremely odd, that mormonism needed the right ground, but Christ and every other prophet got tossed into the Lions den

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Just speculation here, but perhaps God's first attempt at restoration was through Michael Servetus.

See how that worked out?

Does God attempt to do things Vance?

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If God had to wait so much time for a fertile ground for mormonism... why did he send Christ in such a hostile environment? I don't get how God sends prophets to incredibly hostile lands (if we believe the stories) but decides that mormonism has to wait about 1600 years. Rather odd, don't you guys think?

Maybe because the Lord needed to fulfill the Atonement and be crucified? What an odd concept huh?

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If God had to wait so much time for a fertile ground for mormonism... why did he send Christ in such a hostile environment? I don't get how God sends prophets to incredibly hostile lands (if we believe the stories) but decides that mormonism has to wait about 1600 years. Rather odd, don't you guys think?

Some ground is more fertile then others and other times are better then others, would you prefer Christ had not come?

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Maybe because the Lord needed to fulfill the Atonement and be crucified? What an odd concept huh?

Begs the question. God (or his prophets) could have prophesied something very different if God's plan would have been, since the beginning, to send Christ and many prophets somewhere else.

ETA: The Atonement could have been any suffering, though. All Christ needed for the Atonement was to pray and suffer a lot... but that wasn't God's plan, of course...

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Yeah, it's not like Joseph Smith was brutally murdered or anything.

You are missing the point, BMT. When does the Lord stop protecting his servants so as to say that in one situation he can't protect them and has to wait and in another situation he sends them and protects them?

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Christ could have just as easily came to the Democratic US, since that is what the "restoration" had to wait for

Not being an American! I would say that it had to become democratic first before the restoration happened or Christ had come, although I can't imagine Christ living in the US without a summer home in Canada!

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Begs the question. God (or his prophets) could have prophesied something very different if God's plan would have been, since the beginning, to send Christ and many prophets somewhere else.

You are right, He should have sent them to the moon.

You were correct earlier. You don't get it (G-d or His ways) which understandably makes your questions very odd.

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Seems the main push of the LDS Restoration was to reestablish a mortal Church leader(Prophet), Apostles, the Priesthood, Church governance through revelation, Salvific ordinances and so forth. All this came about through revelation by God to JS and then others.. and so on. (this is a summary, and misses much, but hopefully it isn't a mischaracerization)

Here is the issue I have.

Assuming that most of the LDS posters I have heard here are correct that the apostasy occurred 1st or 2nd century. Then that leaves at least 1,600 year gap between anyone Christian having a baptism or any other ritual that was effective for that time.

Joseph Smith's starting point on restoring all this, seems to be a prayer related James 1:5 and the subsequent answer he posited he received.

I am doubtful that similar prayers weren't uttered by many under the same auspices across that time. Why did God wait 1,600 years or so to give a good answer?

Joseph received an answer that was precisely commensurate with:

1. Joseph’s faith and ability to be obedient to the commandments he received (1 Corinthians 10:13);

2. Joseph’s calling and foreordination to be the Prophet of the restoration (Jeremiah 1:5); and

3. The Lord’s timing for the beginning of the “dispensation of the fullness of times.” (Acts 2:17.)

Those who offered up similar prayers in the preceding 1600 years, received answers consistent with the same principles.

I doubt I am the only person (or the first or last) who has prayed to hasten the day of His 2nd Coming—an event that will happen in the Lord’s own time. It may be hundreds of years yet; nevertheless, I do not believe my prayers (nor any of those offered before or after mine) go unanswered.

“…Even so, come, Lord Jesus.” (Revelation 22:20)

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Does God attempt to do things Vance?

Touche'.

BUT you missed the point! For the restoration to occur AND SURVIVE the right conditions had to be in play. Religious freedom was a must. The execution of Michael Servetus demonstrates that the right conditions did NOT exist in the 1500's.

The Ancient Church couldn't/didn't survive and the same basic conditions existed until 1830. And even then the Church barely survived. I think it is rather obvious that the restoration occurred immediately upon the right conditions being set.

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...

Joseph Smith's starting point on restoring all this, seems to be a prayer related James 1:5 and the subsequent answer he posited he received.

I am doubtful that similar prayers weren't uttered by many under the same auspices across that time. Why did God wait 1,600 years or so to give a good answer?

The problem I always had was, "Why would there be an apostasy in the first place?" I see no evidence for it outside of Mormonism's assertions that such took place. I see religious "evolution" throughout the history of our species. One borrows from its predecessors. Sometimes, but rarely, a new religion emerges that transcends all previous efforts; making full use of their insights and eschewing their errors in the main. Such is Mormonism: the fourth of the great "Abrahamic" religions to come along.

But the original problem remains: Mormonism cannot be the exclusive "revelation" meant to save the entire world. It is for a limited or even "select" group of people, not for everybody throughout eternity as it claims.

I see no reason why "God", an infinite being, would limit billions of souls to one paradigm of religious thought. It makes no sense. If the one paradigm resulted in a demonstrably better lifestyle; a better and higher morality; an enlightenment superior to all others, then I would begin to be convinced. But rather, we see Mormonism as merely one in a myriad of previous and ongoing religions, clearly taking its contents from them and adding nothing new or even essential.

I don't even see religious people as superior in their moral compasses to the so-called non religious. It seem to me, rather, that for the most part religious people NEED religion in order to "fly straight". Often, most of the time in fact (from my experience), non religious people, untroubled by dogma and the "needs" of religion imposed upon its devotees, are more free to enjoy life simply and foster a "live and let live" charity toward others and their differences distinctly lacking in many religious creeds and their adherents.

"Religion will make bad men good and good men better." But also, dogmatic and organized religion is not a necessary ingredient in making a person better. If it is felt to be needful then by all means include religion; even the organized and dogmatic kind. But if it seems spurious or even detrimental to a relationship, then shuck religion altogether, says I. The choice is that of each individual.

And judgment is only possible for acts, not thoughts or desires: ergo, none of us can look upon a religious or non religious person and say they need to be otherwise....

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The problem I always had was, "Why would there be an apostasy in the first place?" I see no evidence for it outside of Mormonism's assertions that such took place.

So, does ignoring all of the New Testament evidence for it, make all that evidence go away?

The old head in the sand approach.

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If God had to wait so much time for a fertile ground for mormonism... why did he send Christ in such a hostile environment? I don't get how God sends prophets to incredibly hostile lands (if we believe the stories) but decides that mormonism has to wait about 1600 years. Rather odd, don't you guys think?

Christ's mission was to complete the Atonement. He was sent to the time and the environment which would help that to be possible. Joseph Smith's mission was to restore the Gospel. He was sent to the time and the environment which would help that to be possible.

There is nothing odd about it, except that you didn't get this yourself and that it had to be explained.

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