Rob Bowman Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 Brant,You wrote:So your only position is that your belief system differs from my belief system? We knew that. If you are suggesting something that is testable in human populations, such as what ritual secrecy in religion does, you will get a better perspective if you do engage in some anthropology of religion. It could move you away from statements whose validity depends solely upon your assertion of them.I made no statement about "what ritual secrecy in religion does." So again, your criticism of my position misses entirely.
Rob Bowman Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 All,There are a lot of you on the LDS side of the argument here, and only one of me. I am happy to answer as many of you as much as I can, but I am laboring under some personal difficulties, not the least of which is a torn rotator cuff in my right shoulder (positively identified as such just this morning, after days of pain). Please do not construe a lack of response to a particular post or point as avoidance. I'm very much run down physically, have a lot of other things going on, and am engaged in a rather thankless task by participating in this particular discussion--so please bear with me.
Calm Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 All,There are a lot of you on the LDS side of the argument here, and only one of me. I am happy to answer as many of you as much as I can, but I am laboring under some personal difficulties, not the least of which is a torn rotator cuff in my right shoulder (positively identified as such just this morning, after days of pain). Please do not construe a lack of response to a particular post or point as avoidance. I'm very much run down physically, have a lot of other things going on, and am engaged in a rather thankless task by participating in this particular discussion--so please bear with me.Just remember that the reason you are in this discussion at all is that you chose to join it so the only one you should be expecting thanks from is yourself, if you are finding it too difficult to address the main issues of a thread (and I would say the direction the OPer wants the thread to go is the main issue) than perhaps it would be best to limit yourself to one thread at a time or even take breaks from the board for a couple of days between threads.
Brant Gardner Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 I made no statement about "what ritual secrecy in religion does." So again, your criticism of my position misses entirely.Is it possible that I read so poorly as to totally misunderstand the intent of the following (from above)Rob Bowman:My position is that alleged ritual secrets that show something to be fundamentally wrong with a religion, or that show the religion to be something other than what it claims to be, are fair game for exposure and critique. You have said that secrets show "something to be fundamentally wrong with a religion. . . ." That tells me that you have no understanding at all of how ritual secrecy actually functions in a religion, or why it can be an important aspect of the religion. I base my statement on the work anthropologists have done with many religions, finding that there are important aspects that ritual secrecy can fulfill.On the other hand, the only evidence I know showing why "something [is] fundamentally wrong" is your opinion. Your opinion does not appear to be informed.So, since I have missed it before, please clarify for me the basis on which you may assert that this shows that there is something "fundamentally wrong." To this point in the discussion, I have yet to see any clear indication that you understand the fundamental difference between a secret and ritual secrets. They are very different (again, anthropological literature would assist you in understanding).
Hayds Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 Right, force them to shell out a bunch of cash just when they need it most....The bride's parents usually pay for the wedding unless the couple are older and living on there own.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 (edited by mod for temple content)Just my two cents, sorry.
Nathair/|\ Posted May 7, 2011 Author Posted May 7, 2011 Just my two cents, sorry.Pretty sure you misunderstood, but I can't go into more detail without violating board rules. It goes to the question of why we don't talk about it even with other endowed persons outside of the temple.
Helorum Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 "the more I have thought over my experience with the LDS Endowment, in its past and present form, the more concerned I have become about the idea of God that it presents"From your other comments my 'concern' is that you really don't understand the meaning of the referenced ritual elements in their proper (i.e., ancient Israelite) context. The descriptive term you use is non-existent in the ritual, which means your interpretation is highly questionable.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 From your other comments my 'concern' is that you really don't understand the meaning of the referenced ritual elements in their proper (i.e., ancient Israelite) context. The descriptive term you use is non-existent in the ritual, which means your interpretation is highly questionable.Super. Isn't it great we can all have our own opinions? At least you didn't accuse me of not understanding because I must be a drug addicted fornicator.
Bernard Gui Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 Super. Isn't it great we can all have our own opinions? It's usually best to base opinions on reality. What you described is notan accurate depiction of the temple endowment. Bernard
ELF1024 Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 Super. Isn't it great we can all have our own opinions? At least you didn't accuse me of not understanding because I must be a drug addicted fornicator. If it would make you feel better, I could call you one...
mfbukowski Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 Just my two cents, sorry.This reflects an extremely shallow and fundamentalistic understanding, or should I say, lack of understanding.
Calm Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 If it would make you feel better, I could call you one...What a good guy, always willing to step up and help if needed.
Sleeper Cell Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 Whoever that SP is, he's a jerk. Unrighteous dominion at its finest. Guys like him are usually peons at their day jobs so they get absolutely drunk with authority. Whatever ceremony they were having outside of the temple ceremony is purely secular and no need to inject the church into it. He should have felt honored he was asked to perform the ceremony. Sure the bride and groom prolly should have spoke to him in advance, but on the flipside why would you expect someone to tell you how things were to going to go down at YOUR wedding? I could go on forever. Its guys like this that give the church a black eye yet somehow they keep promoting people like him through the ranks.[Emphasis added]If you don’t want to “inject the church into it,” don’t ask a church leader to perform the ceremony. Sure the bride and groom prolly should have spoke to him in advance, but on the flipside why would you expect someone to tell you how things were to going to go down at YOUR wedding? The couple had the right to decide “how things were going to go down” at their own wedding. They did not have the right to expect a church official to go along with something that he felt was contrary to church policy.
Calm Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 This reflects an extremely shallow and fundamentalistic understanding, or should I say, lack of understanding.It always surprises me when people who have had such significant negative reactions to the temple ceremony respond to that reaction by condemning the temple ceremony as wrong rather than taking the opportunity to maybe consider the possibility that their interpretation of the temple ceremony just might be wrong, especially when there are plenty of examples of people around them who find the ceremony extremely uplifting and inspiring and one that draws them closer to God.If after my first encounter with a ceremony presented to be a blessing and gift from God...especially if taught this by people who had proved their love and concern for me and others over and over again, I felt confused and troubled by that ceremony, my first thought would not be "gosh, God really screwed up with this one" (and therefore what was being taught was automatically a false picture of God), but rather "I must be missing something, I should be looking closer and paying more attention to everything, not just what stuck out the first time through".
mfbukowski Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 It always surprises me when people who have had such significant negative reactions to the temple ceremony respond to that reaction condemning the temple ceremony as wrong rather than taking the opportunity to maybe consider the possibility that their interpretation of the temple ceremony just might be wrong, especially when there is plenty of examples of people around them who find the ceremony extremely uplifting and inspiring and one that draws them closer to God.In my experience, it takes experiencing the Endowment a many many times - attentively- before you even get a glimmer of what is there.I recall the quote of President MacKay (I think) at an advanced age telling the 12 that he is "just beginning to understand" the Endowment.There are layers upon layers of complexity there when you start to see it.
Calm Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 In my experience, it takes experiencing the Endowment a many many times - attentively- before you even get a glimmer of what is there.I recall the quote of President MacKay (I think) at an advanced age telling the 12 that he is "just beginning to understand" the Endowment.There are layers upon layers of complexity there when you start to see it.What I love about symbolic teaching systems is that there is never a time when one can say "I have nothing more to learn here".And certainly any system that is designed to bring us face to face with God will never reach an end to its usefulness nor do they have limits to what knowledge they contain for us (since it is God with his unlimited knowledge who becomes our teacher when we submit ourselves to him).
Anijen Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 There have been many studies on secret rituals in anthropology. The LDS certainly do not have a monopoly on it. I think BookofMormonLuvr probably needs to attend the temple more often. I would be willing to bet that Bokovoy or Makelan could give us some wonderful lectures of Old Testament language where faith is extended. One of my favorite non LDS studies of a secret ritual is of the Hopi and of their Kiva, there are many others. A symbolic teaching is the best way I know that can represent and teach a spiritual truth. Symbolism can penetrate language barriers and time barriers. Symbolism does not have to be the exact same method 25 years ago nor 2500 years ago but can still teach the same truthful principal. I would suggest to those who are uncomfortable with what they perceive that symbolism to represent to then find a different truth it can represent. Ponder deeper than what the bare surface is saying. Like a parable it can be heard for a simple thing or it can have a more deeper meaning. Does the seed whither away and die because it is not in good soil, does it only mean that it was planted in the wrong place?
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 It seems to present a God who is unable to determine whether you are able to enter his kingdom....No offence, but I used to work for a Protestant church which required me to attend a worship service every week, and the more I have thought over my experience with what they call the Lord's supper, the more concerned I have become about the idea of God that it presents. It seems to present a God who is unable to determine whether one is able to enter His kingdom unless one eats and drinks prescribed, ritually blessed bread and wine and Who, at least as presented in the Bible, is paranoid about letting those outside of His followers partake of those same foodstuffs--going so far as to threaten with damnation those who allow the unworthy to partake of the bread and wine. Perhaps because, by eating and drinking them, a person could trick his/her way into His kingdom?
Hestia Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 How many times do we need to remind people that temple content is not to be used, whether you agree with it or not.
mfbukowski Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 How many times do we need to remind people that temple content is not to be used, whether you agree with it or not.I am not aware of any temple content being exposed on this thread.Perhaps it would be useful to indicate which post was incorrect so we could at least better define the boundaries of what constitutes "temple content" to the mods?
Nathair/|\ Posted May 7, 2011 Author Posted May 7, 2011 I am not aware of any temple content being exposed on this thread.Perhaps it would be useful to indicate which post was incorrect so we could at least better define the boundaries of what constitutes "temple content" to the mods?#106
mfbukowski Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 #106OK- well I definitely missed whatever was there, so I stand corrected.I understand it is impossible to say what we can't say, without saying it, so I suppose further instruction about that is not really possible.I guess I restrict "temple content" to more specific items than others. It drives my wife crazy too, so I guess I have to be more sensitive to the whole issue.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 I did NOT, in fact, use or reveal any Temple content. I am VERY careful about not discussing those things in a manner to reveal anything not to be revealed, because I respect the feelings the LDS hold for it.
mfbukowski Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 I did NOT, in fact, use or reveal any Temple content. I am VERY careful about not discussing those things in a manner to reveal anything not to be revealed, because I respect the feelings the LDS hold for it."The LDS"?Oh, I guess that tells the tail then. You don't have a clue why it is sacred then unless you have attended a hundred or two Endowments.Let's see- 12 a year- ten years- yeah, that's about right....
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