Thoughts On Ritual Secrecy

[mfbukowski]

I think you are mixed up if you are reading the story on the endowment site as Mauss'. Here Mauss tells his own story and he is third generation LDS and likely went on a mission (and thus was endowed) at the usual age: http://mormonscholar.../armand-l-mauss

In the quote given in a footnote on the endowment website, Mauss states:

There is no discretion in posting the endowment on the internet. The individual doing so is fooling himself if he thinks Mauss' comment is justifying his actions.

OK I stand corrected, and I fully apologize.

I hope I sufficiently hedged my earlier comments- I was never sure it was Mauss' site, but could definitely have given that impression. Again, I apologize.

And thanks Calmoriah for pointing that out!

Gervin- what were you talking about??

Nosing around the internet I noticed a site operated by an endowed LDS with the complete texts for the initiatory and endowment, with footnotes explaining the rite's historical development. It also includes a quote by LDS sociologist Armand Mauss:

[T]here is no real reason that even devout Church members could not talk more about the temple ceremonies than they do, with appropriate discretion about time and place, since the oaths of secrecy attach only to the new names, signs, tokens, and penalties. Indeed, more open talk about the temple would not only facilitate understanding among both Mormons and non-Mormons in certain historical and scholarly respects, but would also infinitely improve the preparedness of initiates, almost all of whom now enter the temple with only the vaguest idea of what to expect or of the obligations they will be asked to assume.

Perhaps the indignation expressed here is more appropriately directed to the Mormon Scholars Testify-worthy LDS who suggests more open talk about the temple ceremonies and the endowed LDS who posts the complete texts and other information comparing changes to the endowment.

I thought you were saying that the "Scholar" was the same person who was the "endowed LDS who posts the complete texts".

Perhaps I put two and two together and came up with 7.

[Calm]

Doing a search on the site, the only time Duffy's name comes up is in a reference. As far as the domain info, using Domain Whois, this comes up: Registrant Name:John-Charles Duffy

While I did not look all through the website, in the explanations of the purpose of the website...where one would assume the name of the individual creating the site would be listed,

there is no name given that I could tell. So much for full disclosure.

[Calm]

If it is Duffy and he is just not covering for someone else, then the information that he is a member is way out of date.

[mfbukowski]

Doing a search on the site, the only time Duffy's name comes up is in a reference. As far as the domain info, using Domain Whois, this comes up: Registrant Name:John-Charles Duffy

While I did not look all through the website, in the explanations of the purpose of the website...where one would assume the name of the individual creating the site would be listed,

there is no name given that I could tell. So much for full disclosure.

Thanks for straightening me out!

I guess I read Gervin's post too quickly, and was too quick on the draw in misunderstanding him. Again, apologies all around.

[Calm]

Okay, he does claim to be creator of the site:

About Me

John-Charles Duffy I'm a gay Mormon intellectual—voluntarily separated from LDS church life since 1995, excommunicated in 2007—who retains a testimony that God transforms people's lives through Latter-day Saint scripture and tradition. During a retreat at a Trappist monastery in 2001, I realized that despite the unexpected turns my life has taken and my frustration with the LDS Church, Mormonism remains my "first language" for communicating with God. Ever since, I have been committed to finding ways to live out the principles of the Restoration outside the institutional church. Through discerning, ongoing engagement with LDS teachings and spiritual disciplines, I seek to be guided by the Spirit, to practice Christian discipleship, and to help build up God's kingdom on earth. I am also the creator of the websites [the site that posts the endowment] and[another one]

[Calm]

Thanks for straightening me out!

I guess I read Gervin's post too quickly, and was too quick on the draw in misunderstanding him. Again, apologies all around.

No problem, it led me to more fully research the source of Gervin's claim.

[Skylla]

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This topic has been closed by a moderator.

Reason: Thread is still off course after warnings.

Kind regards,

Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board Staff