Applied mormonism: To tithe or not to tithe?

[Maidservant]

I want to start by saying to the OP, that I appreciate your challenges to God, and I think he does too. Challenging God is going to lead you to some interesting spiritual and life places and you will come to praise :) .

I have been sitting here thinking how my tithing could possibly cover my debts and my car repair bill either this month or over time. I want her job!! In other words, I'm never going to win that game, tithing or no tithing.

One thing I had to learn a long time ago is that God is not a vending machine. You don't stick "obey commandment" in the slot and get out "great blessing" out the other end. It's not a cause and effect, linear situation.

Also "Mormonism" isn't only about belonging to a particular church or subscribing to a particular ideology--in other words, not sure "applied mormonism" is the best angle to understand the point to the church or the gospel.

What I have come to understand is the reality of the covenant.

I am being created by my covenant with the Godhead. And in my humble opinion, that process is BRUTAL, at least it has been for me. My difficulties are not ONE THING, and my blessings ANOTHER. I am finding that my DIFFICULTIES AND MY BLESSINGS ARE THE SAME THING. I could say sooooo much about this, but maybe I will start another thread.

I personally don't think God is interested in condemning Maria for doing what she believes is best for her family. But as Tao said, it's between her and the Lord. It she says things are better, I believe her.

My understanding of what the blessing of tithing is, is the opportunity to receive our priesthood covenants. Tithing has funded temple building all over the earth, bringing the covenant to many, and in connection with that idea, tithing paying is an essential eligibility to receiving our own covenant.

[mbh26]

Ok, but let's say she does pay that last wage. Most people who don't really believe in Catholicism still have their children baptized. After all, what can it hurt? And if by some slim chance what the Catholic Church is saying was true, you're covered.

She'd have to learn that skill and become that person in the hereafter, and it is much more difficult there. Since it would take her longer to become a tithing person, she'd miss many time periods of not being exalted. Even though no longer guilty of failure to tithe, she'd have to wait until the characteristic became ingrained in her spirit before qualifying for whatever blessing she merited by writing that last check.

This I can agree with completely. But many would argue that this contradicts the parable of the laborers.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Ok, but let's say she does pay that last wage. Most people who don't really believe in Catholicism still have their children baptized. After all, what can it hurt? And if by some slim chance what the Catholic Church is saying was true, you're covered.

Yes, but we're not Catholics. Deathbed tithing just to cover one's bases is an act of cynical desperation, not faith, and it's genuine faith in Christ that saves a person, not hoop jumping. As Elder Robbins pointed out in General Conference, doing without being just makes one a hypocrite, like the ancient Pharisees.

My elderly neighbour, on the other hand, genuinely repented and became a disciple of Christ at the end of his life. That's a different thing altogether. And, as I pointed out above, though he harboured no worries about his place in the next life, his regret focussed on all the blessings he and his family had missed in this one.

[mbh26]

One thing I had to learn a long time ago is that God is not a vending machine. You don't stick "obey commandment" in the slot and get out "great blessing" out the other end. It's not a cause and effect, linear situation.

Maybe not God, but tithing is a principle, correct? I get a different impression when I read D&C 82:10 or when the bishop quotes Malachi at tithing settlement. But based on real life experience it sure seems like you're right on the money that God is not a cosmic vending machine.

My understanding of what the blessing of tithing is, is the opportunity to receive our priesthood covenants. Tithing has funded temple building all over the earth, bringing the covenant to many, and in connection with that idea, tithing paying is an essential eligibility to receiving our own covenant.

You can make your covenant when you're 21, possibly before you ever even have a real job. You live an entire life of work, getting fired, mortgages, debt, and interest payments etc. for 40-50 long years after that. Isn't that really where the test of this life is? I agree with your point, but it doesn't explain everything.

[USU78]

On one occasion, I visited a family in the ward the same night, and they sent me home with plate of food. I lived off that plate of food for the rest of the week. On another occasion, I came home in the evening to find a bag of bread and cheese hanging on my doorknob.

How'd the oil get in the kruse and flour in the crock during the famine?

[TAO]

If I may say so, the blessings of tithing, at least to some degree, are having more tender mercies in one's life.

I would say that isn't worth giving up for anything... at least for me XD.

[mbh26]

his regret focussed on all the blessings he and his family had missed in this one.

And that's where we disagree. Not to be negative but I don't believe that being a member of the Church and scrupulously living the gospel is a blessing in this life.

Perhaps it's all just a matter of what you tell yourself and choose to believe. I suppose I could make myself believe living the gospel "makes a person happier in this life" if I wanted to and perhaps it would become my perception and my reality. But that seems a bit disingenuine to deliberately condition oneself based on something that isn't true. But who am I to say that one might not obtain happiness this way. The philosopher called religion the opiate of the people. Perhaps it could be like a "high," that you never have to come down from like a chemical drug. And you could perpetually create it by ignoring reality and only allowing in information that supported this "perception." It doesn't seem right to me to do this, but I can see how it could work.

[USU78]

Is the choice really between paying tithing and incurring debt?

If we incur debt in order not to miss a meal while paying our tithing, are we really keeping the law of the tithe?

[Hamba Tuhan]

Not to be negative but I don't believe that being a member of the Church and scrupulously living the gospel is a blessing in this life.

Then you're really missing out, mate.

Perhaps it's all just a matter of what you tell yourself and choose to believe.

Or maybe it's a matter of what one actually experiences. I wish I could share my experiences with you, but I can't. You could, however, choose to have your own.

[Hamba Tuhan]

The next step for many, it seems, is to insist that those of us whose experiences have been radically different are just relying uncritically on some enabling fiction or are afraid to acknowledge that the emperor really has no clothes. <sigh>

I suppose I could make myself believe living the gospel "makes a person happier in this life" if I wanted to and perhaps it would become my perception and my reality. But that seems a bit disingenuine to deliberately condition oneself based on something that isn't true. ... And you could perpetually create it by ignoring reality and only allowing in information that supported this "perception."

Do I get some kind of prize for this?

[mbh26]

Do I get some kind of prize for this?

Yes you do. I have to applaud you on that. You've obviously been down this line of thought before.

For me it was a first to consider the idea that I could make my own reality. Just to be clear I wasn't accusing you of doing that. I was saying that was the only way I personally could buy into some of the axioms that have been presented when from my perspective and the evidence I've seen, they contradict real world experience.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Just to be clear I wasn't accusing you of doing that. I was saying that was the only way I personally could buy into some of the axioms that have been presented when from my perspective and the evidence I've seen, they contradict real world experience.

Fair enough. Best of luck, mate!

[TAO]

And that's where we disagree. Not to be negative but I don't believe that being a member of the Church and scrupulously living the gospel is a blessing in this life.

True perhaps. But it is necessary to receive blessings in the future. Which is far worth it XD.

Also, the sense of peace and purpose from the gospel does make it rather worthwhile in this life, I have to say. At least for me. I would have a hard time living a life without a sense of purpose... otherwise it seems just pointless XD.

Best Wishes,

TAO

[awesome0]

Here's what I have to say.

There are two important principles tithing relates to, as does saving and debt management. Sacrifice and stewardship.

Tithing as given in D & C 119 carries only one specific promise, to sanctify the saints. No free bee material blessings. Nothing. Santification. Tithing does that because we sacrifice material things, and it helps build churches, and temples.

The law of tithing as given in the old testament is an entirely different law, and so Malachi is really being quoted out of context. In general conference, we were also recently told, don't count on material blessings to come out of tithing.

Stewardship is a key principle of life. It is up to us to manage our finances in an optimal manner. As such, we should be saving for the short-run and long run.

I think for tithing, the thing is, we have no clear guidance on what is to be tithed. Is it income, gross income, net income, disposable income, or net increase. I used to pay tithing on my net income after taxes. Then a high councilman gave a

fire and brimstone talk about tithing being gross (gross vs. net blessings and all of that crap). I did a lot of reading, research and prayer. Since then, I came to a different conclusion. I do a yearly accounting of my assets, and pay tithing on my net increase

in assets. Since doing so, I have promoted a couple of times, paid off a lot of debt, donated to several charities, and saved a lot.

I think each individual needs to prayerfully come to their own conclusion about what the Lord wants them to tithe. Personally, I think if the choice is does one default on a debt or pay tithing, I would pay the debt. Both tithing and being honest in ones dealing are TR

questions, so you just have to pick your poisson. To rob your fellow man and take food off his plate while paying a full tithe is totally hypcrytical in my view.

[cinepro]

This brings up some interesting questions:

1) Would the car have broken down if my friend had paid tithing faithfully? That is, was she cursed for not paying her tithing?

While it's possible to associate good things with obedience to the commandments, and to associate bad things with disobedience to the commandments, it gets socially awkward to start associating specific bad things with specific disobedience. Because, after all, bad things happen all the time to everybody, so it's statistically impossible to separate the regular misfortunes with the God-sent ones.

So, unless a Prophet specifically identifies a misfortune as being divine in origin, we just can't know.

2) Is the extra money a blessing, in the LDS sense? That is, how much should she attribute her good fortune to God, given that she attained this money by disobedience to a commandment?

That would depend on how we define "blessing". But since the LDS belief on tithing says that everything we have comes from God, then Maria's extra money must be a blessing, because it came from God. Granted, God wanted her to give the 10% back, but that would explain the car trouble.

I don't think we can say that disobedience can never result in a blessing.

3) Why does Maria feel happiness in her disobedience, while a few years ago, this trial would have brought much unhappiness? Is this not counter-intuitive - shouldn't she feel miserable in her disobedience, and full of joy as a full tithe payer?

Sounds to me like Maria is "past feeling" Were she in-tune with the spirit, she would feel guilt and sorrow over not having paid her tithing.

In discussing tithing, we need to keep in mind that the Church isn't just a Church. It's also a corporation. It has bills to pay. Hopefully, the goals and aims of the corporation would always align with the goals and aims of the Church, but if the day ever came where this wasn't the case, I wonder which would have priority?

As a side note, I get to teach the lesson in EQ next month on Tithing. And it's going to be a great lesson...

[ERayR]

And that's where we disagree. Not to be negative but I don't believe that being a member of the Church and scrupulously living the gospel is a blessing in this life.

To you it may not be because you will not allow it to be. To him it is because he recognizes the difference between the two parts of his life.

[mbh26]

To you it may not be because you will not allow it to be. To him it is because he recognizes the difference between the two parts of his life.

So whatever Maria is missing out on by not paying it would have to be something right now, correct? And if she doesn't feel like she is missing out on anything, it can only be because of her own failure to recognize the blessings that she received right now when she was paying? She may feel like she is happy right now, but she could be even happier right now if she were paying. The only thing she loses is right now, not in eternity.

I guess one fact that you can't get around is that no matter how great the consequences might be in eternity, they still must diminish in present day value for every year in the future they actually are. In other words, if I give you $100 today, that's certainly worth a lot more than $100 10 years from now, right?

[TAO]

So whatever Maria is missing out on by not paying it would have to be something right now, correct? And if she doesn't feel like she is missing out on anything, it can only be because of her own failure to recognize the blessings that she received right now when she was paying? She may feel like she is happy right now, but she could be even happier right now if she were paying. The only thing she loses is right now, not in eternity.

I guess one fact that you can't get around is that no matter how great the consequences might be in eternity, they still must diminish in present day value for every year in the future they actually are. In other words, if I give you $100 today, that's certainly worth a lot more than $100 10 years from now, right?

It depends how the economy goes. If all the world's banks magically disappear in 100 years, that $100 might be worth a whole ton more then than it is now.

[why me]

Interesting scenario came up today:

A close friend of mine (let's call her Maria) had stopped paying tithing a couple of years ago for various reasons. Today, on the way home from her yoga class, Maria's car broke down on the roadside, and she had to get it towed to the mechanic. The repairs will cost a bit more than a modest amount.

I went and picked Maria up from the mechanic (she lives close by) and on the way home, Maria said she was grateful that she didn't pay tithing. As Maria explained it, without the burden of tithing, she is blessed to have money in the bank to cover the cost of the repair. Not only that, by not paying tithing over the years, Maria has managed to get out of debt that she carried while paying tithing.

A couple of years ago, a car breaking down would have been a major setback for Maria, and would have brought her extra stress. Today, she took the setback in stride, and all because, as she said, some extra money was in the bank, and she could cover the repairs with little impact.

This brings up some interesting questions:

1) Would the car have broken down if my friend had paid tithing faithfully? That is, was she cursed for not paying her tithing?

2) Is the extra money a blessing, in the LDS sense? That is, how much should she attribute her good fortune to God, given that she attained this money by disobedience to a commandment?

3) Why does Maria feel happiness in her disobedience, while a few years ago, this trial would have brought much unhappiness? Is this not counter-intuitive - shouldn't she feel miserable in her disobedience, and full of joy as a full tithe payer?

Interested in all perspectives.

H.

As I informed you on the other board, the purpose of tithing is simple: to support the kingdom of god on earth. Paying tithing is a communal act of supporting the church that one belongs to. It allows the church to function as a church and it allows its functions to be adequate in supporting the members. And through the act of tithing one may or may not receive blessings.

Now what happens to many members who become negative about tithing is that they tend to forget the communal aspect of tithing and see it more as a personal issue. No GA gets rich on tithing money. They are not sifting out the creame for their own personal use to build mansions etc. But the money is used to build churches and temples in poor countries such as the Ukraine etc.

[MorningStar]

Does the church teach that Mormons receive blessings and non-Mormons don't?

We don't know what Maria's life would be like now if she had paid her tithing. There's an assumption that tithing blessings are always financial and it's not true. Members of the church will go through financial struggles like anyone else. We all have lessons to learn in life. During our worst times, I was able to see how the Lord was helping us through it. One day I felt prompted to send a struggling friend away with a bunch of food. She has diabetes, no medical insurance, asthma, etc., and has been looking for a good job for 4 years. She told me she had only had a Coke that day. I knew that if I followed through, I would be blessed. Less than a week later, a neighbor was moving out of the country and gave us a lot of food - more than we could even fit in our pantry.

Would it have happened if I weren't paying my tithing? I don't know. What I do know is that it's a commandment and that God won't let me down if I'm doing what I'm supposed to. We also felt inspired for my husband to take the job he is in now even though it had lower pay. It has been worth the struggle because he is way less stressed in this position, works four 10 hour days, and it has opened the way for me to teach piano on his extra day off. Not only is this helpful financially, I am loving it. No matter what happens to us financially, I am sure I will teach from now on just because I love it. I love my students, I love helping them realize what they can do, and making them laugh.

[mbh26]

Not only is this helpful financially, but I am loving it

And to me that is what a blessing is. You didn't train or condition yourself to love it. You just loved it. If you were mentally strong enough to completley manipulate your senses, you wouldn't need any help from anyone. I can't see myself ever being capable of doing that. I honestly believe my father is addicted to cutting firewood. I can't see how he was born liking to do it that much. It must have been drudgery at some point. But now, I honestly believe he would pay you good money to allow him to cut firewood.

I believe I've been blessed at times when I have paid my tithing as well. But I've always wondered what was really fair to say for tithing when I taught it. They say every sacrifice brings blessings but I've seen cases where I can't see how that would be true. I would have felt bad promising someone that only to find out later that it wasn't quite true.

[Questing Beast]

Interesting scenario came up today:

A close friend of mine (let's call her Maria) had stopped paying tithing a couple of years ago for various reasons. Today, on the way home from her yoga class, Maria's car broke down on the roadside, and she had to get it towed to the mechanic. The repairs will cost a bit more than a modest amount.

I went and picked Maria up from the mechanic (she lives close by) and on the way home, Maria said she was grateful that she didn't pay tithing. As Maria explained it, without the burden of tithing, she is blessed to have money in the bank to cover the cost of the repair. Not only that, by not paying tithing over the years, Maria has managed to get out of debt that she carried while paying tithing.

A couple of years ago, a car breaking down would have been a major setback for Maria, and would have brought her extra stress. Today, she took the setback in stride, and all because, as she said, some extra money was in the bank, and she could cover the repairs with little impact.

This brings up some interesting questions:

1) Would the car have broken down if my friend had paid tithing faithfully? That is, was she cursed for not paying her tithing?

2) Is the extra money a blessing, in the LDS sense? That is, how much should she attribute her good fortune to God, given that she attained this money by disobedience to a commandment?

3) Why does Maria feel happiness in her disobedience, while a few years ago, this trial would have brought much unhappiness? Is this not counter-intuitive - shouldn't she feel miserable in her disobedience, and full of joy as a full tithe payer?

Interested in all perspectives.

H.

We cannot know the other events that were avoided (or given up) by paying or not paying tithing. Or even if there is any correlation at all.

I tend to think that there is no correlation between tithing paying and monetary blessings. It is all serendipity, which seems to generally be the lot of our species across the board. Even in times of extreme turmoil and destruction, e.g. during wars, people get along well enough in the main part. The majority do not die or even suffer permanent disabilities. So serendipity abounds for all of us. We only notice the "bad stuff" because it breaks from the norm.

What I DO believe paying tithing causes to happen is the acquiring of disciplined thinking about money. This is invaluable. A person who learns to get by on 90% can get by on 80%. And the person who saves 10% (or more) is going to have a good retirement. It's as simple as that.

The other benefit from paying tithes and offerings (donating to charity) is the change in attitude toward money and material things: when we regularly give back of what we have to benefit others, our attitude toward material things becomes enlightened: we do not get attached quite so much to our "stuff", and the problem of eminence (better "stuff" compared with everyone else) diminishes and eventually vanishes altogether with age/experience (i.e. getting wisdom). And when we are actively engaged in bettering others with our substance, such a widespread attitude will change that civilization into a paradisiacal society through process of time....

[cinepro]

As I informed you on the other board, the purpose of tithing is simple: to support the kingdom of god on earth. Paying tithing is a communal act of supporting the church that one belongs to. It allows the church to function as a church and it allows its functions to be adequate in supporting the members. And through the act of tithing one may or may not receive blessings.

I look at tithing the way I look at a gym membership. I'm paying to be a part of the group, but whether or not I get anything out of it is up to me.