Calm Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 No, I think they will be treated as they have treated others. Murderers shall be killed, people who kick hungry homeless dogs will go hungry (during the great tribulation)the powerful that abuse their power will serve the slave etc...Punishments that actually fit the crime so that those who have done wrong might perhaps learn how their victims felt...and perhaps learn remorse thereby....make much more sense to me than just a generic one size fits all 'let them burn'.
Questing Beast Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 Being "fundamental" toward beliefs is one thing; translated to actions, including speech, is quite another. We all need to be constantly on our guard against fundamentalism. The very first clear indicator that you are a dangerous fundamentalist is when you nourish an "us and them" attitude. In other words, we are all dangerous; especially those who do not think that they are, because they are "right"....
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 As I understand it God is going to baptize the earth with fire at the second coming of Jesus Christ. Do you believe this is true? I assume this will involve killing millions or billions of people. Does it bother you? Do you think God is capable of doing such a thing?Yes he will allow this, man will be the source. Does it bother me, using this logic "God" has been killing millions from the days of Adam.
zelder Posted March 25, 2011 Author Posted March 25, 2011 Yes he will allow this, man will be the source. Does it bother me, using this logic "God" has been killing millions from the days of Adam.Man will be the source of the fire? Please explain further.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 Man will be the source of the fire? Please explain further.Nuclear war
erichard Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 As I understand it God is going to baptize the earth with fire at the second coming of Jesus Christ. Do you believe this is true? I assume this will involve killing millions or billions of people. Does it bother you? Do you think God is capable of doing such a thing?People on this planet apparently have been complaining that "if" there is a God He is not making Himself known well enough.But the problem seems to be that if God does make Himself known, His presence destroys every corruptible thing.What do you think He should do? D&C 101 shows that He has decided to show up one day (the Millenium "day") to make everyone happy.Anyone unhappy with that plan?RichardD&C 101 22 Behold, it is my will, that all they who call on my name, and worship me according to mine everlasting gospel, should gather together, and stand in holy places; 23 And prepare for the revelation which is to come, when the veil of the covering of my temple, in my tabernacle, which hideth the earth, shall be taken off, and all flesh shall see me together. 24 And every corruptible thing, both of man, or of the beasts of the field, or of the fowls of the heavens, or of the fish of the sea, that dwells upon all the face of the earth, shall be consumed; 25 And also that of element shall melt with fervent heat; and all things shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the earth.
The Nehor Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Punishments that actually fit the crime so that those who have done wrong might perhaps learn how their victims felt...and perhaps learn remorse thereby....make much more sense to me than just a generic one size fits all 'let them burn'.That is sadly exactly what hell is and the 'one size fits all' gets people there. No fun.
The Nehor Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Being "fundamental" toward beliefs is one thing; translated to actions, including speech, is quite another. We all need to be constantly on our guard against fundamentalism.Why? Fundamentalism means a strict adherence to doctrines. That's a good thing. The very first clear indicator that you are a dangerous fundamentalist is when you nourish an "us and them" attitude.Then I'm safe. I know I'm with the sinners and everyone else. In other words, we are all dangerous; especially those who do not think that they are, because they are "right"....Being convinced you are right isn't bad but being dogmatic about it is because it cuts off further revelation.Religion is of course one of the most dangerous things ever invented. The easiest way to override our inbuilt revulsion at evil is to smack the label "God wills it!" on them. There's a reason brutal warrior cultures are very interested in religion.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Being "fundamental" toward beliefs is one thing; translated to actions, including speech, is quite another. We all need to be constantly on our guard against fundamentalism. The very first clear indicator that you are a dangerous fundamentalist is when you nourish an "us and them" attitude. In other words, we are all dangerous; especially those who do not think that they are, because they are "right"....Since when is expression of devout religious belief in a public forum a "dangerous thing", last time I checked it was a constitutionally protected right. IMHO, it's the people that advocate that devout belief in one's religion and discussing such beliefs in the public forum in a civil and peaceful manner, it the real danger here. Those who seek to limit or remove the free expression of thoughts especially religious belief from the public, are the real villains here, not those who are peacefully presenting the doctrine of there faith. Remember that one can also be a fundamentalist atheist and seek to repress and destroy the free speech and freedom OF religion of many, many, people if they get there fundamental way as well. I fought and my ancestors fought (and in a fee cases died) to ensure that all have equally protected and constitutionally guaranteeing access to the publicly express there thoughts and ideas freely and without fear of reprise or punishment, as long as they do it in a peaceful and civilized manner. Now today when I hear all this talk about the dangers of fundamentalism and how the public shouldn't have to hear what they don't want to hear, ect, ect. It scared me and troubles me deeply, a nation that seeks to limit the Constitutional rights of any group is one that is on the door steps of tyranny and destruction, unless actions are taken to correct such wickedness.
mapman Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 To us, fire is something that causes pain and destroys because we don't need to use it anymore. However, fire is also used for purification, keeping warm, and providing light. Prophets over the millenia have described the glory of God and angels as being like fire.Personally, I don't think that there is literally going to be fire burning up people.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 To us, fire is something that causes pain and destroys because we don't need to use it anymore. However, fire is also used for purification, keeping warm, and providing light. Prophets over the millenia have described the glory of God and angels as being like fire.Personally, I don't think that there is literally going to be fire burning up people.Do you believe that Christ will destroy the wicked of the Earth when he returns at the second coming?Added by Edit:The Church seems to think he will and will burn all unclean things with fire:[Jesus Christ] will cleanse the earth. When Jesus comes again, he will come in power and great glory. At that time the wicked will be destroyed. All things that are corrupt will be burned, and the earth will be cleansed by fire (see D&C 101:24-25).http://lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-54,00.html
Questing Beast Posted March 27, 2011 Posted March 27, 2011 @LDS Guy: You read all of that into what I wrote. Nowhere did I suggest that freedom of expression of beliefs or anything else be curtailed.Fundamentalism of the "US AND THEM" variety is what I am talking about: i.e. the mainly religious type. But as you point out, atheists can be fundamentalist and preach an "us and them" attitude vis-a-vis the religious people all around themselves. Dawkins is a good example of an atheist fundamentalist with a mad-on about religion. The humanistic movement toward eliminating all religious expression in public is every bit as dangerous as any religious fundamentalism which makes "them" inferior to "us"....
Steadfast Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 As I understand it God is going to baptize the earth with fire at the second coming of Jesus Christ. Do you believe this is true? I assume this will involve killing millions or billions of people. Does it bother you? Do you think God is capable of doing such a thing?It is true. The scriptures clearly teach that the wicked will be burned to stubble at His coming. It probably will involve millions of people--there are probably millions of wicked people on this Earth. I'm sad for them, but it won't be the first time that the judgments of God have come upon the wicked.Consider the flood in the times of Noah. All of the wicked were drowned.Just as the flood was a sort of baptism of the Earth, the baptism by fire of the Earth at Jesus' coming will be like a confirmation of the Earth. Kind of like how a person is baptized by water, and then by the Holy Ghost (the "baptism by fire").But as far as God "doing" that to the wicked, I don't see it quite that way. I think that Joseph Smith taught us that without the protection of the Holy Ghost, no man can see the face of God and live. I consider it possible that the very act of seeing the Lord's face will cause some people to be incinerated... they won't be able to withstand his glory. So, it might just kind of be a side effect of their wickedness, rather than a conscious, deliberate act on Jesus' part. Kind of like how if the people of Noah's time would have gotten on the ark, then they wouldn't have drowned. Their refusal to board the ark was the real cause of their demise, rather than the fact that the water covered the land.
bookofmormontruth Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 It is true. The scriptures clearly teach that the wicked will be burned to stubble at His coming. It probably will involve millions of people--there are probably millions of wicked people on this Earth. I'm sad for them, but it won't be the first time that the judgments of God have come upon the wicked.Consider the flood in the times of Noah. All of the wicked were drowned.Just as the flood was a sort of baptism of the Earth, the baptism by fire of the Earth at Jesus' coming will be like a confirmation of the Earth. Kind of like how a person is baptized by water, and then by the Holy Ghost (the "baptism by fire").But as far as God "doing" that to the wicked, I don't see it quite that way. I think that Joseph Smith taught us that without the protection of the Holy Ghost, no man can see the face of God and live. I consider it possible that the very act of seeing the Lord's face will cause some people to be incinerated... they won't be able to withstand his glory. So, it might just kind of be a side effect of their wickedness, rather than a conscious, deliberate act on Jesus' part. Kind of like how if the people of Noah's time would have gotten on the ark, then they wouldn't have drowned. Their refusal to board the ark was the real cause of their demise, rather than the fact that the water covered the land.100% agree.
Maidservant Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 For a long time, I have believed that the literal arrival of Jesus Christ with his glory would be so great that it could not be withstood and cause death in those unsanctified. However I have left it at that, and not taken it up again to rethink things, except I have been having some life experiences and whisperings lately and this thread is great to bring it to the fore in my mind. 9 And with righteousness shall the Lord God judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth. And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 10 For the time speedily cometh that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked will he destroy; and he will spare his people, yea, even if it so be that he must destroy the wicked by fire. 11 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.MILLENNIUM 12 And then shall the wolf dwell with the lamb; and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf, and the young lion, and the fatling, together; and a little child shall lead them. 13 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 14 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice
Cherubbish Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 It is interesting that you should choose this scripture where in v 24 he says "this is speaking after the manner of the Lord". In other words, whatever we might normally think this is, we might want to look deeper and get a fuller revelation.I believe the reference "this is speaking after the manner of the Lord" is referring to the Lord's definitions of "today" and "tomorrow", and the Lord defines how he uses the word "today" in verse 23 as now or anytime before the coming of the Son of Man, and then "tomorrow" would be at the time and after His coming. I love finding these definitions in the scriptures and I bet if you were to substitute these definitions for the words "today" and "tomorrow" anywhere they are found in the scriptures, they would still make sense or give new meaning to the verse. But I digress.By the way. To "kill" a wicked person does NOT destroy the wicked. A wicked person that has been killed (body removed from them) remains wicked, but now in a new place (spirit world). Their wickedness still affects their lives and those around them.I do like your take on this. This reminded me of Mosiah 27:26 where Mormon describes converted people as "new creatures".
Calm Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 As a hmmm....The symbol for the tribe of Judah was the lion. If Christ is the lamb....Play on words perhaps?
tana Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 If one thinks of "fiery execution" of something along the lines of pouring gasoline on someone and lighting them up.....I don't think that it going to happen.I can see how the very wicked who do not repent, who treasure their wickedness so to speak and therefore find themselves unable to endure the presence of God even in the muted form he takes in a Terrestrial world might be 'executed' by a very quick death where the "fire" is the glory of the Lord and they are not quickened so they can endure it. I see that aspect as likely instantaneous and likely painless as I do not see what purpose would be served by having them suffer in that way.Good point Cal. Who gains by "torch"ering someone for a few minutes? G-d? That doesn't seem likely. That would be like stepping on a bug and saying....that'll teach ya for crawling up on my porch. How does the person gain any eternal lesson from being physically torched, since they're bound for eternal hell anyway? Is justice somehow served? How could justice be served by causing temporary physical pain on a body?I can't remember the term, but this feels more like a policy carried over from days of old when the church "cleansed" people by torture before executing them.Even society has progressed to more humane ways of ridding itself of the chaff. I guess they've figured out that it doesn't teach the victim anything by burning, hanging shooting, electrocuting them, so they/we've come up with lethal injection. For some reason tho G-d feels a need to incinerate?
Cold Steel Posted April 2, 2011 Posted April 2, 2011 People will determine their own fate, as I see it. Those living a telestial glory will be destroyed at the Lord's coming. Those living a terrestrial glory will be spared. Some of the righteous will perish because they're in the wrong place at the wrong time and some will fall victim to illnesses and the frailty of the flesh. But death really doesn't mean much if you consider that we're all immortal beings. I have no personal desire to live through these times, but will take each day as it comes.Orson Pratt prophesied that the government would collapse and that entire cities would be destroyed. Also, civil wars would break out and Joseph Smith said that the saints will be targeted and chased from city to city. The saints will gather and those who want to become part of our society can do so, regardless of their religion (as long as they abide by our laws). Whether people live or die, it's the quality of their lives that's important. Judging God by the number of people who die is foolish, because death is not a cessation of existence. It's just a change to a better place.Elder Pratt said: "When that day shall come there shall be wars, not such wars as have come in centuries and years that are past and gone, but a desolating war. When I say desolating, I mean that it will lay these European nations in waste. Cities will be left vacated, without inhabitants. The people will be destroyed by the sword of their own hands. Not only this but many other cities will be burned; for when contending armies are wrought up with terrible anger, without the Spirit of God upon them, when they have not that spirit of humanity that now characterizes many of the wars amongst the nations, when they are left to themselves, there will be no quarter given, no prisoners taken, but a war of destruction, of desolation, of the burning of the cities and villages, until the land is laid desolate."But what of the United States? Pratt said: "The time is not very far distant in the future, when the Lord God will lay his hand heavily upon that nation. ... What then will be the condition of that people, when this great and terrible war shall come? It will be very different from the war between the North and the South. Do you wish me to describe it? I will do so. It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, town against town, county against county, state against state, and they will go forth destroying and being destroyed and manufacturing will, in a great measure, cease, for a time, among the American nation. Why? Because in these terrible wars, they will not be privileged to manufacture, there will be too much bloodshed-too much mobocracy-too much going forth in bands and destroying and pillaging the land to suffer people to pursue any local vocation with any degree of safety. What will become of millions of the farmers upon that land? They will leave their farms and they will remain uncultivated, and they will flee before the ravaging armies from place to place; and thus will they go forth burning and pillaging the whole country...."Ten years ago, this would have sounded ridiculous. But today we can see the seeds of contention growing between varying factions and hatred is growing. .
Sevenbak Posted April 2, 2011 Posted April 2, 2011 Thank you for that Cold Steel. I truly believe Orson Pratt was a great seer in many respects, and his words are often discarded... to our detriment I believe.Here's another from Wilford Woodruff on the same lines. "When I contemplate the condition of our nation, and see that wickedness and abominations are increasing, so much so that the whole heavens groan and weep over the abominations of this nation and the nations of the earth, I aks myself the question, can the American nation escape? The answer comes, No; its destruction, as well as the destruction of the world, is sure; just as sure as the Lord cut off and destroyed the two great nations that once inhabited this continent of North and South America because of their , so will he them destroy, and sooner or later they will reap the fruits of their own wicked acts, and be numbered among the past. I cannot help it; I would to God they would repent, that their eyes might be opened to see their condition; but the devil has power over them; he rules the children of men, he holds Babylon in his own hand, and leads the people withersoever he will. There are changes awaiting us, they are even nigh at our very doors, and I know it by the revelations of Jesus Christ; I know it by the visions of heaven, Iknow it by the administrations of angels, and I know it by the inspiration of heaven, that is given to all men who seek the Lord; and the hand of God will not stay these things. We have no time to lose." Wilford Woodruff:
Sevenbak Posted April 2, 2011 Posted April 2, 2011 And while we're at it, this warning published in the Millennial Star should give us pause.One thing that really stands out here for me is the specific reference to the BoM warnings about the Lamanites coming among us like a lion among the flocks, tearing us apart. That's a reference repeated 3 times in the BoM. Notice the bolded statement near the end of this. "This generation shall be visited by an overflowing scourge. Of the precise nature of it we are not informed. It shall pass over the nations night and day. The affect of this visitation will be so direful and calamitous that the reports of its terrible ravages will fill all people with vexation. The operations of this fear-inspiring and destructive agent will continue until the appearance of the Lord in his glory. Some of the judgment are definite as to locality. As an instance may be cited the approaching disruption of the Unites States of America. One of the horrors announced by the prophet upon that nation is now a matter of history the war of the Rebellion. Another and more appalling condition awaits that ill-fated people. It shall fall upon them like the visitation of a whirlwind, sweeping the country like a mighty flood. The populace will be divided into innumerable factions, and blood, carnage and woe will be rampant among them, filling the hearts of the more peacefully disposed with fear and dismay. Many will laugh at such a prediction, but, unless the people repent, it will come as surely as night follows day. Weakened and powerless from internal broils and disturbances, the nation will become a prey to the remnants left of the aboriginal inhabitants, who will be filled with vengeful rage at the wrongs that have been perpetrated upon them and furiously spread destruction in every direction."
Cherubbish Posted April 2, 2011 Posted April 2, 2011 So where's the hope? Make me feel better people.
Sevenbak Posted April 2, 2011 Posted April 2, 2011 So where's the hope? Make me feel better people.He has given us the hope. The protection will be had in staying close to the church.D&C 115:6"And that the gathering together upon the land of Zion, and upon her stakes, may be for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be epoured out without mixture upon the whole earth."
Sevenbak Posted April 2, 2011 Posted April 2, 2011 p.s. There is that other guy offering hope, in Washington, for those so inclined.
The Nehor Posted April 2, 2011 Posted April 2, 2011 So where's the hope? Make me feel better people.The whole point of the book of Revelation. Read and enjoy.
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