Sevenbak Posted April 2, 2011 Posted April 2, 2011 I think Elder Nelson just put to bed any doubt as to the reality of this principle.
tana Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 Please forgive me if this has already been brought up, but, how exactly would G-d go about incinerating a portion of the population (the bad) from among the rest, without some form of "rapture"? It would be like picking out an anthill and burning only the the ones pointed west.If one attempts to write off burning innocents as "collateral damage", it seems to bring up all sort of issues, in my mind anyway.
LeSellers Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 Please forgive me if this has already been brought up, but, how exactly would G-d go about incinerating a portion of the population (the bad) from among the rest, without some form of "rapture"? It would be like picking out an anthill and burning only the the ones pointed west.That's what "gathering" is all about. We'll be in General Conference, at the stake centers or something. Maybe it will be Easter, and everyone not in church (even if it's not an LDS building). Who knows. I suspect that Father has a good plan, and I won't try to second guess what He has in mind. Lehi
HiJolly Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 I have a feeling that the fire at the second coming will be as literal as the fires of hell. Take that as you will.Bingo. What happened when Christ appeared to Joseph? There *was* a fire at His coming, and so it will be for each of us. HiJolly
BookofMormonLuvr Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 Please forgive me if this has already been brought up, but, how exactly would G-d go about incinerating a portion of the population (the bad) from among the rest, without some form of "rapture"? It would be like picking out an anthill and burning only the the ones pointed west.If one attempts to write off burning innocents as "collateral damage", it seems to bring up all sort of issues, in my mind anyway.Awesome question...That is one of the messages of hope the Restoration offers... We know that in the last days a city will be built that will be a place of refuge from the horrors of the last days and violence fills the earth...D&C 45:68And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.
Questing Beast Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 If this "burning" is literally, empirically going to occur, then this "city of refuge" is literal, and there is literal, physical fleeing required. But if Jesus' "two in a field", etc., is metaphorical (and I maintain that ALL of this "last days" destruction stuff is metaphorical), then this separation into believers and the wicked is not a physically understood event or condition; but rather a state of mind, a perceptional difference: and this has always been the case.We have hyper and hypo spiritual people, and the great mass in between, including yours truly. There is no convenient polarizing going on now, or any other time. The BoM conveniently labels the Lehites and Jaredites into "wicked and righteous"; there is never any middle ground; yet we in the real world see this huge mass of "middle ground" people all the time. To assert that this is somehow vanishing away in this day and age - yet it has never happened before - is to place a huge assertion upon the scriptures. Isaiah, et al. the prophets of the apocalypse are somehow talking about several different fulfillment epochs using the same words: yet we are to understand that in "the last days" before the 1,000 year Millennium all of humanity is, for the first and only time, supposed to become polarized into clearly defined "righteous and wicked" camps? I don't believe it. And there is nothing in historical evidence that shows this to have ever happened before."Burning" is evocatively applied to inner feelings of turmoil and mental distress. Such states of emotion and mind are brought on by extreme challenges; but more often, continuously exacerbated by bad choices, lying to oneself and injustice as a lifestyle over one of living justly. "Hell on earth" is the result of a life of lies. And any "two in a field" can be one or the other: a liar or a person of truth and peace....
BookofMormonLuvr Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 QB, your posts remind me of this scripture...2 Nephi 28:22And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none
Questing Beast Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 QB, your posts remind me of this scripture...2 Nephi 28:22And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none
Questing Beast Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 That last bit rang a bell. I have always loved this: "If by my life or death I can protect you, I will." How exactly is that the attitude of any antichrist? Or how is it any less scripture than the characterization of "Captain Moroni"?...
BookofMormonLuvr Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 And if you read carefully, you will see that the people being described are in "an awful state of wickedness"; not trying their best to always choose truth over error, ministering to the poor, declaring the goodness of God in their lives, etc and etc. The BoM "wicked" are the ones being deceived, because they want excuses to live as hedonists and predators, etc. Do you recall that Jesus said "by that judgment shall you also be judged"?I say that there is no literal place that we could call "hell". There is no devil, by which I mean there is no literal Lucifer/Satan/devil of singular identity as interpreted by many with the scriptures. We have quite enough evil within our dual natures to create quite enough "devils" to plague each of us for a lifetime. We do not require legions of the "damned", swirling unembodied all around us, whispering in our spiritual ears of the enticements of sin. We already know sufficiently of the consequences of wrong choices. Many of us require experiences to pound home the lessons of misery that prevent us from having Joy. And that is enough. All the rest of the dogma is fear-mongering: inherited from generations and thousands of years of religious traditions.Now, you can take what I just said out of context easily enough: you could quote only that paragraph elsewhere and portray me as a Sherem, Nehor or Korihor. But it would be a lie. Because I tell you that the desire of my heart is to deal justly with every person; to preach against sin - which is putting the self above "the others"; to live at peace with my brothers and sisters; and to offend no one in the truth. If by my life I can make this world a better place than I found it, then I shall be satisfied....So...If you are a "good guy" it is alright to teach that there is no devil or hell? Doesn't teaching falehoods and giving people a false sense of security that there really is no punishment for disobeying God's commandments disqualify you from the "good guy" category?You flattering words are no different and no more true then when satan inspired the first man to say them years ago.
Cherubbish Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 That last bit rang a bell. I have always loved this: "If by my life or death I can protect you, I will." Isn't that the the Lord of the Rings? Not sure how that fits in. And I'd have to say you're wrong - there is a literal son of the morning, Lucifer, even Satan, the devil, for the scriptures tell me so.
Cherubbish Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 Awesome question...That is one of the messages of hope the Restoration offers... We know that in the last days a city will be built that will be a place of refuge from the horrors of the last days and violence fills the earth...Isn't Zion defined as the people of the Lord who are one heart and one mind? (Moses 7) There is also a literal city Zion described in the scriptures, but I like the metaphorical sense better because I think it would be logistically impossible for all the righteous of the world to be gathered into one geographical area. That's what stakes are for.
Sevenbak Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 That's what "gathering" is all about. We'll be in General Conference, at the stake centers or something. Maybe it will be Easter, and everyone not in church (even if it's not an LDS building). Who knows. I suspect that Father has a good plan, and I won't try to second guess what He has in mind. LehiI've wondered about this, and think it will be much more than just the gathering places of Zion. The Church teaches that millions of nonmembers will survive into the millennium, those from all faiths who live the terrestrial law. That's a lot of people to put in our buildings if they are the only source of safety. There surely will be protection for them as well.
saemo Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 As I understand it God is going to baptize the earth with fire at the second coming of Jesus Christ. Do you believe this is true? No.
Biz Posted April 8, 2011 Posted April 8, 2011 As I understand it God is going to baptize the earth with fire at the second coming of Jesus Christ. Do you believe this is true? I assume this will involve killing millions or billions of people. Does it bother you? Do you think God is capable of doing such a thing?The Second Coming shut down our family home evening when I was a child. My brother and I were so scared we refused to read the scriptures anymore and would not participate in family home evening. As an adult it doe not bother me as much. But personally I do not think that primary kids should be taught this.Biz
tana Posted April 8, 2011 Posted April 8, 2011 The Second Coming shut down our family home evening when I was a child. My brother and I were so scared we refused to read the scriptures anymore and would not participate in family home evening. As an adult it doe not bother me as much. But personally I do not think that primary kids should be taught this.BizI concur, and for that matter, seminary kids. My seminary teacher used to draw it like a gun....."Don't pay your tithing.....burned like the stubble", "kissing on your girlfriend...burned like the stubble", "late for seminary.....blah blah blah". Just for fun, I thought about setting my hair on fire and walking into class late....but decided against it at the last minute.
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