Nathair/|\ Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 It has recently been emphasized in connection with Brother Joseph that "By their fruits ye shall know them." I thought it would be fun to try to find out what fruits the Prophet has produced.Here is what I have come up with so far, in no particular order.He turned a tiny frontier hick town in a swamp into one of the largest, most prosperous and healthiest cities in the country.He established the Relief Society, one of the first women's service organizations in America--now one of the oldest, largest and most effective.He returned to the mainstream the concept of human nobility.His teachings have directly led to an increase in ethical behavior.The Word of Wisdom has led to many people having a healthier lifestyle than they otherwise would.He is indirectly one of the major influences in opening up the west.He made everyone he came in contact with feel valued.He always made time for the youth and children.He routinely gave away more than he could afford to those he thought needed it more.He always stood up for justice and against tyranny.He patronized education and the arts--commissioning a hymnbook and encouraging it's wide spread use.Yours under the well fed oaks,Nathair /|\
Rivers Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 I wonder what kind of fruits he would have produced had he been elected president.
LeSellers Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 I wonder what kind of fruits he would have produced had he been elected president.There would have been no slavery because he'd have purchased the slaves from their owners using the monies from the sales of government lands. There probably would have been no War Between the States. The annual floods in the upper Midwest would not be occurring as we write because there would have been dams on the Upper Mississippi and other rivers (the Red, inter allia). Lehi
Magyar Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 As one in whom the tree of doubt grows beside the tree of faith, neither one agreeing to fully yield ...... I wonder what I am going to tell the little Black child in my Primary class to whom I just gave a Book of Mormon when he comes across the chapter in Alma about a cursed skin of darkness. How would I feel if I was him and read those passages for the first time?I know the long, convoluted apologetic answer -- interbreeding of Lamanites with American aboriginal populations, huge difference between people of African descent and the aforementioned Lamanites, etc. But how do you explain it to an eight year old?Joseph Smith gave us so many beautiful fruits. But to what purpose for our modern day spiritual edification, was this whole Nephite-Lamanite white skin vs. dark skin -- could he not have left that part in the sealed portion?
CV75 Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 But how do you explain it to an eight year old?As an eight-year old, he has probably heard about the complexion complex well before now. So if being moved to proactively explain it to him, I would check in with his parents first.If answering a question in class, I would explain that the Lord used skin color as a way of teaching lessons to people who for some reason were unable to learn it in any other way. One lesson is that obedience brings a blessing and disobedience brings a curse. Another lesson is to separate ourselves from those who teach us bad influences until we can influence them for good instead.The Lord helped them understand these lessons through skin color. We see that he helped the Jaredites learn this lesson through a change in their language. He could have used eye color or hair color or height or weight just as easily, but this is what He chose to teach the Lamanites and Nephites. To each their own.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 It has recently been emphasized in connection with Brother Joseph that "By their fruits ye shall know them." I thought it would be fun to try to find out what fruits the Prophet has produced.Here is what I have come up with so far, in no particular order.He turned a tiny frontier hick town in a swamp into one of the largest, most prosperous and healthiest cities in the country.He established the Relief Society, one of the first women's service organizations in America--now one of the oldest, largest and most effective.He returned to the mainstream the concept of human nobility.His teachings have directly led to an increase in ethical behavior.The Word of Wisdom has led to many people having a healthier lifestyle than they otherwise would.He is indirectly one of the major influences in opening up the west.He made everyone he came in contact with feel valued.He always made time for the youth and children.He routinely gave away more than he could afford to those he thought needed it more.He always stood up for justice and against tyranny.He patronized education and the arts--commissioning a hymnbook and encouraging it's wide spread use.Yours under the well fed oaks,Nathair /|\You forget his most important fruit, the translation of the Book of Mormon, these other fruits attest to Smith's gentle nature and his wisdom as a man. But only the Book of Mormon is the fruit that proves that his is more than just a great man, he is also a prophet of the living God.
Nathair/|\ Posted March 21, 2011 Author Posted March 21, 2011 You forget his most important fruit, the translation of the Book of Mormon, these other fruits attest to Smith's gentle nature and his wisdom as a man. But only the Book of Mormon is the fruit that proves that his is more than just a great man, he is also a prophet of the living God.I didn't forget it, I was trying to focus on things most reasonable people would agree are good fruits. While I personally have a firm testimony of the Book of Mormon and believe it is the most valuable book in the world, many others, even ethical and rational people, have been known to oppose it. Yours under the oaks of discussion,Nathair /|\
Hughes Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 It has recently been emphasized in connection with Brother Joseph that "By their fruits ye shall know them." I thought it would be fun to try to find out what fruits the Prophet has produced.Here is what I have come up with so far, in no particular order.He turned a tiny frontier hick town in a swamp into one of the largest, most prosperous and healthiest cities in the country.He established the Relief Society, one of the first women's service organizations in America--now one of the oldest, largest and most effective.He returned to the mainstream the concept of human nobility.His teachings have directly led to an increase in ethical behavior.The Word of Wisdom has led to many people having a healthier lifestyle than they otherwise would.He is indirectly one of the major influences in opening up the west.He made everyone he came in contact with feel valued.He always made time for the youth and children.He routinely gave away more than he could afford to those he thought needed it more.He always stood up for justice and against tyranny.He patronized education and the arts--commissioning a hymnbook and encouraging it's wide spread use.Yours under the well fed oaks,Nathair /|\First, what are fruits? Jesus said in Matt.12:33
Nathair/|\ Posted March 21, 2011 Author Posted March 21, 2011 First, what are fruits? Jesus said in Matt.12:33
Hughes Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 i think by your definition, I have produced legitimate examples of fruit. It didn't occur to me to include bad fruits, but since you mention it, I can think of two. He had a temper and he wasn't much of a businessman. Oh, and he could be impetuous at times.Honestly? That is the only thing you can think of that were bad fruits? Why do you think that he was in a trial before he supposedly saw a vision? Why do you think many opposed him when he was held in Jail before his death?
TAO Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 Honestly? That is the only thing you can think of that were bad fruits? Why do you think that he was in a trial before he supposedly saw a vision? Why do you think many opposed him when he was held in Jail before his death?Hughes, there are people who are put in trials who are innocent.There are also people who oppose people who are nice.It's the way the world works... stinky, yah... but it's the way the world works =/.
Deborah Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 Why do you think that he was in a trial before he supposedly saw a vision? Because Satan was using everything in his power to stop Joseph from doing God's work and used evil men for such purposes.
Hughes Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 Hughes, there are people who are put in trials who are innocent.There are also people who oppose people who are nice.It's the way the world works... stinky, yah... but it's the way the world works =/.unfortunately that doesn't apply to Joseph Smith. Because Satan was using everything in his power to stop Joseph from doing God's work and used evil men for such purposes.Satan didn't oppose Joseph Smith, since he used him.
cinepro Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 It has recently been emphasized in connection with Brother Joseph that "By their fruits ye shall know them." I thought it would be fun to try to find out what fruits the Prophet has produced.But then, you already have a pair.
LeSellers Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 Why do you think that he was in a trial before he supposedly saw a vision? Because of the greed of the sons of his employer. "On trial" is hardly the same thing as "being guilty", or have you forgotten one Jesus Christ Who was "on trial" at one point? Why do you think many opposed him when he was held in Jail before his death?Why "Jail"? Is it some sort of holy place in your mind?For the answer to your question, let's turn to scripture:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. His words as recorded above, were directed to His Apostles, and, since Joseph Smith was an Apostle of Jesus Christ, they apply to him just as much as they did to Peter & Co. Satan is incapable of inventing anything new. He attacked Jesus as a traitor, he attacked Joseph as traitor. He charged Jesus with blasphemy, he charges Joseph with blasphemy. He told those of the I that Jesus was a magician, doing tricks He'd learned in Egypt, he tells us today that Joseph was a magician using peep stones and finding buried treasure. He ended up having Jesus murdered by the government, and he ended up having Joseph murdered by the government. What the adversary did to the Lord, he has done to His servant, just as Jesus prophesied. Does that answer your question?Lehi
TAO Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 unfortunately that doesn't apply to Joseph Smith. Call for Proof Satan didn't oppose Joseph Smith, since he used him.Another call for Proof ...?
Deborah Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 Satan didn't oppose Joseph Smith, since he used him.And Satan is still using his servants to persecute the Prophet, though long dead.
Nathair/|\ Posted March 22, 2011 Author Posted March 22, 2011 Honestly? That is the only thing you can think of that were bad fruits? I'm sure there were others, but they are equally insignificant.Why do you think that he was in a trial before he supposedly saw a vision? Why do you think many opposed him when he was held in Jail before his death?By that logic, his Master, Jesus, also produced bad fruit when he was put on trial, condemned by the mob and crucified.
Pahoran Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 Honestly? That is the only thing you can think of that were bad fruits? Why do you think that he was in a trial before he supposedly saw a vision?Your chronology is off."Supposed" First Vision: 1820Bainbridge "trial," which was actually an examination: 1826.What came before what?Why do you think many opposed him when he was held in Jail before his death?Many what? You mean, many murderers?The question rather answers itself, doesn't it?Regards,Pahoran
Pahoran Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 And Satan is still using his servants to persecute the Prophet, though long dead.There's a beautiful line from a hymn that covers that nicely:"Let fiends now rage in their dark hourNo matter; no matter; he is beyond their pow'r."Regards,Pahoran
Nathair/|\ Posted March 22, 2011 Author Posted March 22, 2011 unfortunately that doesn't apply to Joseph Smith. Satan didn't oppose Joseph Smith, since he used him.Are you familiar with the logical fallacies of "begging the question" and "shifting the burden of proof?" You may find this tutorial on logical fallacies helpful.
sunstoned Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 It has recently been emphasized in connection with Brother Joseph that "By their fruits ye shall know them." I thought it would be fun to try to find out what fruits the Prophet has produced.The heart break of Polygamy. Then and now.
TAO Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 The heart break of Polygamy. Then and now.I would propose that polygamy is oftentimes only heartbreaking because people make it so ;-).Either way, that isn't Joseph's works. That's other people's, I believe.Very muddled world out there. XD
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 The heart break of Polygamy. Then and now.By 'heart break' do you mean something like the following from Elizabeth Ann Whitney?My husband revealed these things to me; we had always been united, and had the utmost faith and confidence in each other. We pondered upon them continually, and our prayers were unceasing that the Lord would grant us some special manifestation concerning this new and strange doctrine. The Lord was very merciful to us; He revealed unto us His power and glory. We were seemingly wrapt in a heavenly vision, a halo of light encircled us, and we were convinced in our own minds that God had heard and answered our prayers and intercedings before Him.Or maybe you meant something more like this, written by D Michael Quinn about one of Elizabeth Ann's husband's polygamous wives?Newel extended his protection to the grief-stricken seventeen-year-old girl, not only as a bishop but as a husband, and Emmeline in turn loved the Whitneys without measure. She frequently expressed that love for Elizabeth Ann Whitney in poetry and prose, and she penned the tribute cited at Elizabeth Ann
staccato Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 Are you really trying to convince us polygamy is all about roses and kitty cats?
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