Hitler's Temple Work

[SeattleGhostWriter]

This posting on a FB Anti-Mormon group that goes by Challenging Mormon Apologetics states this:

The LDS church has baptized in LDS temples Hitler and company. The even sealed him (after their deaths by proxy) to his girlfriend Eve Braun.

SEE..http://nowscape.com/mormon/hitler_temple_records.htm (Along with many jews also).

Is there a FAIR Paper in response to this? I have looked at Wiki, and Topical Guide on Fair and the closest thing I could find is one about Anti-Mormon's in Finland.

Information and help needed for an adequate response to this.

The cited website has posted the actual paper showing Hitler's Proxy and endowment having been done.

[frankenstein]

this is an adequate response.

The LDS Church believes in life after death. The LDS also believes that ALL, who ever attained mortality on earth, must be given the opportunity for baptism and other ordinances. A person who has died, is given the choice to accept the proxy work done their behalf. That proxy work has been done for Hilter, does not mean the LDS considers Hilter a "Mormon" nor does it mean the LDS Church condones what Hilter did. What will happen "if" Hilter accepts the proxy done on his behalf, the LDS Church simply does not know. God, the Father of Heaven and Earth and all things thereon is the Judge. In His infinite wisdom, God, will Judge Hilter, not the LDS Church.

[SeattleGhostWriter]

this is an adequate response.

The LDS Church believes in life after death. The LDS also believes that ALL, who ever attained mortality on earth, must be given the opportunity for baptism and other ordinances. A person who has died, is given the choice to accept the proxy work done their behalf. That proxy work has been done for Hilter, does not mean the LDS considers Hilter a "Mormon" nor does it mean the LDS Church condones what Hilter did. What will happen "if" Hilter accepts the proxy done on his behalf, the LDS Church simply does not know. God, the Father of Heaven and Earth and all things thereon is the Judge. In His infinite wisdom, God, will Judge Hilter, not the LDS Church.

I am just curious of there is a FAIR article or response to this.

[rpn]

The simplest response is the one that the Church gives when Jewish groups protest finding holocast victims on the list. And that is: The Church's position is that its members should do work for their own kin and ask for permission of the next of kin where that person is living. While the church leaves up to God to do the judging, its theology does not exclude Hitler or any other person who behaves heinously from eventual resurrection, salvation or repentance (though it is plenty difficult to imagine what adequate repentance for someone like Hitler might look like.) The Church does believe that people who are not perfect themselves can be perfect in Christ through repentance and the Atonement. Doing someone's ordinances does not mean that Heavenly Father or the Church approves of in any way, what people did during their mortal lives. We wish our members who are not direct descendants would not do temple work for the famous or infamous. And we do the best we can to encourage church members not to, including requiring that church members affirmatively state that the names they submit for temple work are their ancestors. (You can probably find the statement the Church uses in the newsroom at lds.org.) As an aside,)

[Duncan]

This is from Elder George F. Richards of the Twelve,

"A few years ago, at the closing of a conference of the St. Johns Stake, we had had a wonderful conference I thought, and I was very happy on retiring. I was sleeping in the home of the president of the stake, Brother Levi Udall, and that night I had a remarkable dream. I have seldom mentioned this to other people, but I do not know why I should not. It seems to me appropriate in talking along this line. I dreamed that I and a group of my own associates found ourselves in a courtyard where, around the outer edge of it, were German soldiers

[SkepticTheist]

UMMM. actually I believe that it is against church policy to do temple work for known murderers... Or at least at some point it was.

This is one of those cases where some "Robin Hood" member of the church did some temple work for him.

this is an adequate response.

The LDS Church believes in life after death. The LDS also believes that ALL, who ever attained mortality on earth, must be given the opportunity for baptism and other ordinances. A person who has died, is given the choice to accept the proxy work done their behalf. That proxy work has been done for Hilter, does not mean the LDS considers Hilter a "Mormon" nor does it mean the LDS Church condones what Hilter did. What will happen "if" Hilter accepts the proxy done on his behalf, the LDS Church simply does not know. God, the Father of Heaven and Earth and all things thereon is the Judge. In His infinite wisdom, God, will Judge Hilter, not the LDS Church.

[Calm]

"A few years ago, at the closing of a conference of the St. Johns Stake, we had had a wonderful conference I thought, and I was very happy on retiring. I was sleeping in the home of the president of the stake, Brother Levi Udall, and that night I had a remarkable dream. I have seldom mentioned this to other people, but I do not know why I should not. It seems to me appropriate in talking along this line. I dreamed that I and a group of my own associates found ourselves in a courtyard where, around the outer edge of it, were German soldiers

[ELF1024]

This posting on a FB Anti-Mormon group that goes by Challenging Mormon Apologetics states this:

The LDS church has baptized in LDS temples Hitler and company. The even sealed him (after their deaths by proxy) to his girlfriend Eve Braun.

SEE..http://nowscape.com/...ple_records.htm (Along with many jews also).

Is there a FAIR Paper in response to this? I have looked at Wiki, and Topical Guide on Fair and the closest thing I could find is one about Anti-Mormon's in Finland.

Information and help needed for an adequate response to this.

The cited website has posted the actual paper showing Hitler's Proxy and endowment having been done.

I think a better question would be what are the chances of Hitler actually accepting the work done for him in proxy. As another person said, God will be the judge of that man. I have no problem with his work being done, but like Jeffery Dahmer, I don't think that it will be accepted.

[Duncan]

Rather remarkable for a talk given in 46. It likely made quite a few in the audience rethink their own positions.

I know eh! That is the thing too, the atonement covers Hitler as it does everyone else and hopefully people accept it

[elguanteloko]

can you imagine being the one getting baptized in behalf of Hitler?

I wonder if the water ended up all muddy after this.

[cinepro]

can you imagine being the one getting baptized in behalf of Hitler?

That was my thought as well.

While I can understand the theological reasoning behind doing proxy work for Hitler, I wouldn't want to be involved in being a "Savior on Mount Zion" for him.

[urroner]

There are people who are born without a conscience. That part of the brain just doesn't function properly. Will God hold that against them? Should we continue to hold that agaisnt them in the next life?

If I was baptized for some "wicked dictator/murderer," I would find that interesting, but not life altering in any way, but I would hope that that "wicked dictator/murderer" would accept the gospel and Christ in the next life.

[Duncan]

There are people who are born without a conscience. That part of the brain just doesn't function properly. Will God hold that against them? Should we continue to hold that agaisnt them in the next life?

If I was baptized for some "wicked dictator/murderer," I would find that interesting, but not life altering in any way, but I would hope that that "wicked dictator/murderer" would accept the gospel and Christ in the next life.

That is the thing with people like Hitler, we haven't walked a mile in his shoes, we just need to trust in God that he will judge righteously and right the wrongs on the events and experiences of mortality.

[frankenstein]

UMMM. actually I believe that it is against church policy to do temple work for known murderers... Or at least at some point it was.

This is one of those cases where some "Robin Hood" member of the church did some temple work for him.

do you have a reference?

A post I found on another site (look for valjean date 11/11/09 time 2:52am) from 2009, claimed per the CHI that Temple work for murderers was not restricted, and that some notorious names were removed because the work was not done by permission or by a family member.

A saintsalive blog, indicates Ted Bundy's work was done just a few years ago.

[USU78]

this is an adequate response.

The LDS Church believes in life after death. The LDS also believes that ALL, who ever attained mortality on earth, must be given the opportunity for baptism and other ordinances. A person who has died, is given the choice to accept the proxy work done their behalf. That proxy work has been done for Hilter, does not mean the LDS considers Hilter a "Mormon" nor does it mean the LDS Church condones what Hilter did. What will happen "if" Hilter accepts the proxy done on his behalf, the LDS Church simply does not know. God, the Father of Heaven and Earth and all things thereon is the Judge. In His infinite wisdom, God, will Judge Hilter, not the LDS Church.

Bravely said.

[erichard]

this is an adequate response.

...

Hi,

What you said may seem like a good answer, and yet it presupposes that God truly desires that the members of His church in these times do Temple work for everyone that ever lived.

There is no written revelation teaching such an idea however.

And such a plan places an enourmous burden on the LDS people at a time when calamities and destructions are predicted to come upon the earth. Should not the saints be preparing for the storm ahead rather than doing temple work for endless people unrelated to themselves?

Why would it be the economy of heaven to do temple work for someone unless it is revealed that they qualified and desired it in the spirit world? If there truly is a heaven, then truly revelation can come from heaven before Temple work is performed.

It is taught that in the millenium temples will dot the world for a thousand years. And at that time revelation between heaven and earth will be given to virtually all the Saints. How can there be a need now to do Temple work for someone unless their direct ancestor requests it?

Richard

[TAO]

Hi,

What you said may seem like a good answer, and yet it presupposes that God truly desires that the members of His church in these times do Temple work for everyone that ever lived.

There is no written revelation teaching such an idea however.

And such a plan places an enourmous burden on the LDS people at a time when calamities and destructions are predicted to come upon the earth. Should not the saints be preparing for the storm ahead rather than doing temple work for endless people unrelated to themselves?

Why would it be the economy of heaven to do temple work for someone unless it is revealed that they qualified and desired it in the spirit world? If there truly is a heaven, then truly revelation can come from heaven before Temple work is performed.

It is taught that in the millenium temples will dot the world for a thousand years. And at that time revelation between heaven and earth will be given to virtually all the Saints. How can there be a need now to do Temple work for someone unless their direct ancestor requests it?

Richard

It's here: http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/128.15-18?lang=eng#14 and here: http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/138?lang=eng

If the temple work is not done for everyone, the world will be smitten with a curse, I believe. There could be another interpretation, but that would be concerning when Christ comes.

These two revelations tell us though that much temple work is for our time also, it is "Foreshadowing the great work to be done in the ^atemples of the Lord in the ^bdispensation of the fulness of times, for the redemption of the dead, and the ^csealing of the children to their parents, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse and utterly wasted at his coming." This dispensation is a time the Lord wishes us to do temple work, I guess.

[Bob Crockett]

Even non-members can submit names. The program to redeem the dead is driven by patrons. There are repeated efforts to embarrass the church through the mocking submission of names. In the past control mechanisms haven't worked. Altering spellings and dates can avoid software restrictions. There are also people who patrol the records to look for the mockery to publicize it. The church reacts by removing them. But they keep popping up. The church has undertaken discipline of good members who do this. In one case I know a disciplined member asked innocent family members to resubmit Holocaust names with slight deviations to evade filters.

[erichard]

...

Hi ?

I remain unconvinced that the Lord expects His church to do Temple work for "everyone that ever lived". Ever.

Baptism and the Endowment and sealings are only for those who gain the Celestial Kingdom. They are not necessary for those who inherit the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdoms.

I consider Hitler a victim of the corrupt European mindset that war is inevitable and glorious. He then became a victimizer and perpetuated war. War is still murder. Without revelation it makes no sense to believe he will not end up in the Telestial kingdom. There is no need to do Temple work for him.

I do accept that Elijah had to come and "turn the hearts of the children to the fathers, and the fathers to the children -- least the earth be struck by a curse". This does apply to Temple work of one's own ancestors.

But it applies to the return of real Patriarchy in the family also.

Richard

[TAO]

Baptism and the Endowment and sealings are only for those who gain the Celestial Kingdom.

Sorry, I am going to need a reference for this one, I am not so sure it is correct.

Thanks, and sorry for the hassle,

Best Wishes,

TAO

[erichard]

Even non-members can submit names. ...

That is an interesting idea. Kinda like deathbed repentance.

"Maybe those Mormons might be right. Hmm. I guess I will get my ancestor's Temple work done just in case."

Richard

[erichard]

Sorry, I am going to need a reference for this one, I am not so sure it is correct.

Thanks, and sorry for the hassle,

Best Wishes,

TAO

First read D&C 76. Verse 51 speaks of baptism for those who gain the Celestial Kingdom, but nowhere does it speak of baptism for the other kingdoms.

Then you can read online things that Joseph and others said.

Richard

[SeattleGhostWriter]

Thank you for everyone who responded. As I was pondering this as an attempt to further understand and appropriately defend the doctrine of the Restored Gospel - and that of temple work. This thought came to mind.

A serial murder who had committed a heinous crime is serving a life sentence. He attends a church service. In this church service, there are Christian ministers who ask people to receive Christ, and that it is not too late for them to receive Christ. This serial murder is convicted by the Holy Spirit. He realizes that he is guilty of his crimes, and that our Heavenly Father is disappointed in the things that he has done. He participates in the alter call and receives Christ as his personal Lord and savior. While he can't make restitution for the things he has done, he comes across the Book of Mormon and then begins to read it. He is further convicted and stands in need. However, he is in prison and can't very well be baptized since it would require him to be released from Prison. Yet, his testimony grows, he doesn't hold the priesthood. He is only able to attend an evangelical Christian service. He lives his life behind bars knowing that His Father in Heaven loves him. He also knows that He must serve out his time and beings to do so honestly and faithfully.

When he dies, where will he go? It is the question that I am not able to answer. However, when I asked this to those who condemn and mock the Church's position, they said that this gentleman goes to hell because of his sinful nature and crime. I then asked them - are you in the position to know the intimate heart and mind of a person? They said no, I responded back, then how can you judge in such a manner as if you truly know the very intimate heart and mind of an individual. How do you know for sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that the serial murder will go to Hell and be condemned to a life of torment? They only mocked and jeered at me, but it is the thought that comforts me knowing that we do not honestly know exactly what happens beyond the veil. We only know that what God reveals to us today is enough for us to walk in obedience, faith, hope, and charity.

We do not know if Hitler is saved and redeemed. We won't know until we pass from this life to the next and we stand at the judgment seat of Christ. Why? Because it is not our duty and obligation to condemn people in such a matter because that authority is reserved for God only.

[TAO]

First read D&C 76. Verse 51 speaks of baptism for those who gain the Celestial Kingdom, but nowhere does it speak of baptism for the other kingdoms.

Then you can read online things that Joseph and others said.

Richard

...I must disagree richard. If we read D&C 138:30-37, it says

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he ^aorganized his forces and appointed ^bmessengers, ^cclothed with power and authority, and ^dcommissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in ^edarkness, even to ^fall the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the ^aacceptable day of the Lord and proclaim ^bliberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would ^crepent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had ^adied in their sins, without a ^bknowledge of the truth, or in ^ctransgression, having ^drejected the prophets.

33 These were taught ^afaith in God, repentance from sin, ^bvicarious baptism for the ^cremission of sins, the ^dgift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be ^ajudged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the ^asacrifice of the Son of God upon the ^bcross.

36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of ^aspirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the ^bprophets who had testified of him in the flesh;

37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their ^arebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words.

It states that the gospel will be given unto all the spirits of men who are dead (verse 30). That gospel includes "faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sin, and the Holy Ghost" (verse 33). All men are taught this, even those "in transgression having rejected the prophets" (verse 32) ... "both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of teh Son of God upon the cross" (verse 35). And just as the dead here, so also shall they have the choice to listen and be a partaker of it, if they so choose.

Those links you provide, they say it is needed to get into the celestial, but this says it is needed for all, I believe, if I understood it right.

Sorry about the hassle,

Best Wishes,

TAO

[frankenstein]

Because it is not our duty and obligation to condemn people in such a matter because that authority is reserved for God only.

an excellent statement, and similarly it is our duty to do the proxy work for all those we can do the work for.

It is not our place to say "Well, Thomas Jefferson, was a womanizing whore monger who is not worthy of the Celestial Kingdom, therefore as his descendant I have no obligation to do Temple work for him or his whores, of whom I might be a ******* of."

TAO, I think erichard is possibly correct about entrance to the Celestial Kingdom. However, his implication that we do not do certain people work because he (erichard) has passed judgment on their final place in the afterlife is completely off base.