consiglieri Posted March 5, 2011 Author Posted March 5, 2011 Like Consig, you are confusing the inevitability of sin with the necessity of sin. They are not the same. We inevitably sin because of the Fall; but that does not mean that we need to, required to, or expected to sin in order to learn good an evil, or for any other reason.You could be correct in your argument if you were not a Mormon.Mormonism proclaims a key difference from other faiths in that God intended for Adam and Eve to fall.That was part of the plan.Because it was part of God's plan, the difference between "inevitability" and "necessity" collapses.In Mormonism, sin is inevitable precisely because it is necessary.All the Best!--Consiglieri
zerinus Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 Yep. Paul, Lehi, Consig, and I... we're just confused.You and Consig yes, Paul and Lehi no!
consiglieri Posted March 5, 2011 Author Posted March 5, 2011 Feel free to PM me with your submission.I'd be interested to know if your thinking what I'm thinking.Heck, I'll just say it flat out.Jesus is an exalted being from a prior world.It was there that he sinned and learned the difference between good and evil the same as all of us must.There. I said it.Now, back to your regularly scheduled zerinus thrashing.All the Best!--Consiglieri
zerinus Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 Even sinful thoughts are sins, Zerinus.That does not mean "sinful thoughts". Temptation to sin is not equivalent to committing sin.
consiglieri Posted March 5, 2011 Author Posted March 5, 2011 That does not mean that we need to sin in order to appreciate good and evil.We must be careful to keep our terms straight.We are not talking about "appreciating" the difference between good and evil.We are talking about "knowing" good and evil.Quite a different thing.Adam and Eve did not eat from the Tree of Appreciation.They ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.It was because God had forbidden them to eat from this tree that the act was a sin, and that they thereby gained knowledge of evil . . . which was the only way they could gain knowledge of good . . . and apparently gain the ability to actually do good.Doing no good for they knew no evil.All the Best!--Consiglieri
consiglieri Posted March 5, 2011 Author Posted March 5, 2011 You and Consig yes, Paul and Lehi no! And Zerinus, never.
mercyngrace Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 I am so in need of a facebook like button right now...... and an ecstatically happy dancing around emoticon!Hey Consig,You're beautiful, too. (This was in response to post 56 not post 57, though either it seems could be QFT.)
zerinus Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 You could be correct in your argument if you were not a Mormon.Mormonism proclaims a key difference from other faiths in that God intended for Adam and Eve to fall.That was part of the plan.Because it was part of God's plan, the difference between "inevitability" and "necessity" collapses.In Mormonism, sin is inevitable precisely because it is necessary.All the Best!--ConsiglieriFalse! Answer already given in post #37.
blackstrap Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 Consider the 3 year old who does something wrong( now don't tell me that they can't) It is my understanding that for the 3 year old it is not accounted to him as sin and yet he can feel sorrow and/or guilt and even conceive of ways to do it again and not get caught. Did Christ pay for that "transgression " ? Under which of the proposals posted in this thread do all the children who die before the age of accountability fall?
zerinus Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 Heck, I'll just say it flat out.Jesus is an exalted being from a prior world.It was there that he sinned and learned the difference between good and evil the same as all of us must.There.Since when did you become a disciple of Brigham Young?
zerinus Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 We must be careful to keep our terms straight.We are not talking about "appreciating" the difference between good and evil.We are talking about "knowing" good and evil.Quite a different thing.Adam and Eve did not eat from the Tree of Appreciation.They ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.It was because God had forbidden them to eat from this tree that the act was a sin, and that they thereby gained knowledge of evil . . . which was the only way they could gain knowledge of good . . . and apparently gain the ability to actually do good.Doing no good for they knew no evil.All the Best!--ConsiglieriThey eat of it once, we don't need to eat of it again. The rest of your post was answered (twice) before.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 Consider the 3 year old who does something wrong( now don't tell me that they can't) It is my understanding that for the 3 year old it is not accounted to him as sin and yet he can feel sorrow and/or guilt and even conceive of ways to do it again and not get caught. Did Christ pay for that "transgression " ? Under which of the proposals posted in this thread do all the children who die before the age of accountability fall?Yes...Moroni 8:88Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law ofcircumcision is done away in me.Moroni 8:2222For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemptioncometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing
zerinus Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 Consider the 3 year old who does something wrong (now don't tell me that they can't) It is my understanding that for the 3 year old it is not accounted to him as sin and yet he can feel sorrow and/or guilt and even conceive of ways to do it again and not get caught. Did Christ pay for that "transgression"? Under which of the proposals posted in this thread do all the children who die before the age of accountability fall?People before the age of accountability also sin, but their sins are unconditionally atoned for by Jesus Christ:Mosiah 3:16 And even if it were possible that little children could sin they could not be saved; but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins.
nicolasconnault Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 I find it incredible that no one on this thread has yet discussed the sinlessness of children! Surely, if little children cannot sin but can receive eternal life, sin is not a universal necessity!
TAO Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 Heck, I'll just say it flat out.Jesus is an exalted being from a prior world.It was there that he sinned and learned the difference between good and evil the same as all of us must.Consiglieri... I would disagree.Abraham 3:24-2524 And there stood aone among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and bwe will make an earth whereon these may cdwell;25 And we will aprove them herewith, to see if they will bdo all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;Abraham 3:2727 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.'Them' refers to those who are spirits, thus, Jesus was a spirit at the time.It is possible to be endowed with the power of being a God while being a spirit - the Holy Ghost for example.
paulpatter Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 . . . Jesus never committed sin; how did He know good and evil? Primarily, I suspect, through his encounters with Satan.
Senator Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 I find it incredible that no one on this thread has yet discussed the sinlessness of children! Surely, if little children cannot sin but can receive eternal life, sin is not a universal necessity!Yes, that..Ah, well, yeah, you see there was a period of time in the pre-existence when the Lord was experimenting with the idea of for-ordaining spirits to the office of a lawyer.Wellllll....heh.....things quickly got out of hand and what we have now is a remaining loophole that stuck.
mercyngrace Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 I find it incredible that no one on this thread has yet discussed the sinlessness of children! Surely, if little children cannot sin but can receive eternal life, sin is not a universal necessity!Fwiw,Accountable persons must become pure through repentance and baptism and obedience. Those who are not accountable for sins never fall spiritually and need not be redeemed from a spiritual fall which they never experienced. ~ Elder McConkie
TAO Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 I find it incredible that no one on this thread has yet discussed the sinlessness of children! Surely, if little children cannot sin but can receive eternal life, sin is not a universal necessity!Yah, nah, sins aren't necessary - they can help though, in the learning process. However, they can also hurt.
CV75 Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 So, if God really didn't want us to sin, why didn't he create a plan where we didn't have to?He wants us to choose Him, so He created a plan where we could choose Him. He does not want us to choose against Him, so He created a plan where we could choose Him. The plan is long-term, so faith and patience are required.Choosing Him requires the exercise of our agency bolstered by the benefits of Christ's atonement. At first our imperfect use of agency results in instances of not choosing Him, and Christ's atonement results in the repair and perfection of our agency toward its proper use to choose Him.We came into mortality because we are ready to exercise our agency, even though it is imperfect and we are less perfect than Christ, and so at some point we fail to choose God. However, we are also given ample opportunity to rectify that. While He knows there will be rough spots along the way, ultimately we have everything we need to choose Him, and He wants us to do this.
CV75 Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 Show me one human being who has never sinned and I might believe you.Little children, and those without the capacity to be held accountable.
CV75 Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 men cannot come to God except they repentThose who are capable of repentance, or those who have sinned.
CV75 Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 Were it not for our transgressionAs far as we can know now, after the events that actually transpired. Adam and Eve were bound to transgress, and we were bound to sin because of imperfectly developed agency. Only Christ had developed such agency, and His atonement and our imperfection were accounted for in the plan. The plan does not require that we sin, but is designed because it is in our undeveloped nature to do so, and in Christ's perfect nature to atone in our behalf. So it works without requiring us to sin, but only in acknowledgment that we do sin (according to our free will). It also works without requiring Christ to atone, but only in acknowledgment that He does (according to His free will).
CV75 Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 We mustThis all hinges on the basic "must" that we have agency and exercise it. On this hang all the other "musts" from 2 Nephi 2. D&C 93 talks about what existence is, and tracing the connections it is based in intelligence acting for itself, or agency.
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