If God doesn't want us to sin . . .

[consiglieri]

We commit the same type of transgressions before we are accountable, and the same type of sins after we become accountable, the same types of minor screw-ups that imperfect, repentant people commit. I'm not talking about people who commit very grave sins. I'm talking about everyday Joes in the Church that do the best they can. There is a reason that Adam and Eve are symbols for every man and every woman.

I agree with much of what you have to say, SkepticTheist, but I want to correct here what I perceive to be an error in the thinking of many Mormons (not necessarily you).

It is commonly taught that Adam and Eve did not gain their agency until after the Fall, and hence their violation of the commandment in Eden was a "transgression" rather than a "sin."

But God gave Adam and Eve their agency "in the Garden of Eden," and Lehi shows us exactly how God did it (2 Nephi 2).

Adam and Eve were completely accountable for their action in eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge. If they were not, it would have been unjust for God to punish them by casting them out in response.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This comment raises a question critical to this discussion, in my opinion:

Do you believe we could save ourselves without Jesus Christ if we kept all the commandments perfectly?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

We would not need to be saved if we kept all of teh commandments perfectly.

[mercyngrace]

We would not need to be saved if we kept all of teh commandments perfectly.

I completely disagree.

Salvation isn't just about being blameless, it's about acquiring knowledge. A man cannot be saved in ignorance. What knowledge entitles one to eternal life? We have to know God and Jesus Christ.

You can know of them by imitation but you can only know them through interaction. Their chief attributes are manifest through he redemptive process which is why the Savior expressly taught that he who is forgiven much loves much whle he who is forgiven little loves little.

How can you know God and expect to become like Him when His chief attribute (TPJS) is love and you "love little"?

If a man justifies himself, He is denied the experience of tasting the love of God as manifest through the sacrifice of His Son because he needs no redemption. He never knows God. He cannot have eternal life.

[LeSellers]

Do you believe we could save ourselves without Jesus Christ if we kept all the commandments perfectly?

No.

First, we have to be saved from death as well as from sin. We are mortal no matter what else, so the Atonement is necessary or we'd be dead for eternity. After all, that is the meaning of "Good News" (Gospel): "If a man die, shall he live again?" Job's ancient question is the one Christ answered for us: "Yes, he will!"

Second, if we (hypothetically) did not sin we'd have nothing from which to be saved, so we would not need that salvation. the wages of sin is (spiritual) death, but were we not to sin, we wouldn't earn (spiritual) death.

Lehi

[mercyngrace]

Second, if we (hypothetically) did not sin we'd have nothing from which to be saved, so we would not need that salvation. the wages of sin is (spiritual) death, but were we not to sin, we wouldn't earn (spiritual) death.

Lehi

Bingo! And it's how our interaction with the Savior changes us that prepares us for eternal life!

This is pecisely why Alma taught that not only would justice have no impact in the absence of sin but mercy could have no impact either.

[CV75]

Do you believe we could save ourselves without Jesus Christ if we kept all the commandments perfectly?

Had we kept those same commandments that Jesus did from the beginning or from before the foundation of the world, and so have the same status and power over creation and temporal and spiritual death as He, our path to salvation would be the same as Jesus

[CV75]

Salvation isn't just about being blameless, it's about acquiring knowledge.

If a man justifies himself, He is denied the experience of tasting the love of God as manifest through the sacrifice of His Son because he needs no redemption. He never knows God. He cannot have eternal life.

Jesus gained knowledge of sin and its effects of sin through observation and empathy, the height of which was in the Garden of Gethsemane. Those who love much do the same, and can gain knowledge of good and evil through observation, empathy and service as well as their own failings and repentance.

With regards to the interplay between receiving forgiveness and loving, I believe He is empathizing with our perspective relative to our faith, humility and charity: From Luke 7: 41, some of us feel we owe the Lord a great debt and others a lesser debt. The faithful perceive themselves to be in great debt (unprofitable servants) and so their forgiveness as a great thing and then they continue all the more in love.

[CV75]

Alma taught that not only would justice have no impact in the absence of sin but mercy could have no impact either.

This explains why we need a plan of salvation, not that the plan of salvation requires that we sin. The plan is made for us, not us for the plan, just as the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Even exaltation is made for us, not us for exaltation. God

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I completely disagree.

Interesting, you disagree with me but....

Then you agree with Lehi.

Strange.

If one does not sin (aka keeps all commandments perfectly) then they would not need to be saved.

BTW I have not spoken of knowledge. I assumed that if some one could keep all of the commandments perfectly they would have had a knowledge of all commandments.

[ELF1024]

This subject came up toward the end of a lengthy thread currently ongoing, and I thought I would give it a thread of its own.

We are frequently told that God does not want us to sin. This seems reasonable enough.

On the other hand, God has created a world in which each and every one of us will sin. We can't help it. It is part of our makeup. The way God created us, I might add.

In fact, 1 John 1:10 (?) goes so far as to say if anybody say they don't sin, they are a liar and the truth is not in them.

Paul says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23?)

So, if God really didn't want us to sin, why didn't he create a plan where we didn't have to?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

There was a plan proposed where we wouldn't sin; but it was rejected.

[zerinus]

You are taking that passage out of context. You are ignoring verses 1

[zerinus]

This comment raises a question critical to this discussion, in my opinion:

Do you believe we could save ourselves without Jesus Christ if we kept all the commandments perfectly?

The answer is no. Even if we kept the commandments perfectly, we would still need to be redeemed from the consequence of the Fall of Adam, which we could not do by ourselves no matter how much we kept the commandments:

Mosiah 3

:

16 And even if it were possible that little children could sin they could not be saved [without the Atonement]; but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins.

And here we get, I think, to the heart of why it is LDS try to call the violation of the commandment in the Garden of Eden something other than "sin," preferring the term "transgression."

We like to say "transgression" because we believe Adam and Eve had to violate the commandment in order for God's plan to move forward. We want to call it something other than a "sin," which we think is something we don't have to do, but choose to do.

The problem is, as you point out, that it is a distinction without a difference. And I think Elder Oakes mentioned this in a recent conference address.

I agree that "sin" vs. "transgression" is a false dichotomy; but your next comment:

We have to sin/transgress every bit as much as Adam and Eve if we want God's plan to move forward.

This is why God has ensured that we will all do so, through the flesh, "and the evil which is therein."

Is a completely false theology and a perverse heresy, and has no truth in it at all.

[consiglieri]

Is a completely false theology and a perverse heresy, and has no truth in it at all.

Don't mince words, Bones. Tell me how you really feel.

[mercyngrace]

Jesus gained knowledge of sin and its effects of sin through observation and empathy, the height of which was in the Garden of Gethsemane. Those who love much do the same, and can gain knowledge of good and evil through observation, empathy and service as well as their own failings and repentance.

All good comes from God. IOW, if we know how to empathize, it is because Christ who suffered for us provided succor.

With regards to the interplay between receiving forgiveness and loving, I believe He is empathizing with our perspective relative to our faith, humility and charity: From Luke 7: 41, some of us feel we owe the Lord a great debt and others a lesser debt. The faithful perceive themselves to be in great debt (unprofitable servants) and so their forgiveness as a great thing and then they continue all the more in love.

[mercyngrace]

Interesting, you disagree with me but....

Then you agree with Lehi.

Strange.

If one does not sin (aka keeps all commandments perfectly) then they would not need to be saved.

BTW I have not spoken of knowledge. I assumed that if some one could keep all of the commandments perfectly they would have had a knowledge of all commandments.

Maybe I misread.

You said we would not need to be saved if we kept the commandments perfectly.

Lehi said we could not be saved even if we kept the commandments perfectly.

I took your comment to mean that we would need no Savior if we were sinless while Lehi said that even if we were sinless we could not save ourselves. Since you reiterated that this is indeed what you meant, perhaps I misunderstood Lehi? I still don't see your responses as being identical - and if they are different, it makes sense that they would elicit different responses from me.

[mercyngrace]

Congratulations for getting that part of it right!

Is a completely false theology and a perverse heresy, and has no truth in it at all.

Thank heavens we have not only a prophet, the scriptures, the temple drama, and the Spirit to guide us. What would we do without you, Zerinus? )

[zerinus]

Don't mince words, Bones. Tell me how you really feel.

You mean like the way it says it in the Book of Mormon?:

Nephi 28

:

28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall.

Zzzz!

[zerinus]

Thank heavens we have not only a prophet, the scriptures, the temple drama, and the Spirit to guide us. What would we do without you, Zerinus? )

Sometimes I wonder about that myself. LOL!

[consiglieri]

Sometimes I wonder about that myself. LOL!

While it seems unlikely the opposing sides on this issue will come to agreement any time in the near future, I find it interesting that such different viewpoints can be advocated by devout and intelligent Mormons.

And Zerinus.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[zerinus]

While it seems unlikely the opposing sides on this issue will come to agreement any time in the near future, I find it interesting that such different viewpoints can be advocated by devout and intelligent Mormons.

I think she will come to agree with me sooner than you think.

[CV75]

All good comes from God. IOW, if we know how to empathize, it is because Christ who suffered for us provided succor.

Yep. If you read my earlier comments I specifically said that it wasn't the quantity or quality of sin but how we feel about it. (See below)

My exact words on page 3 of this thread were:

This is all well and good, but I do not see any valid support for the view that God wants us to sin, that He makes sure we do, that He requires us to sin, that the plan of salvation necessitates our sinning, and that sinning is consistent with how anyone gains the requisite knowledge for becoming an exalted being.

The Fall is a reflection of our spirits' limited capacity and preparation for exaltation. The plan of salvation is designed to bring us from such limited capacity, evident even as pre-mortal spirits, into bodies and eventually to where God is. The Fall was not brought about by obedience to a command to replenish the earth by sinning /transgressing in the form of partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. It was brought about by human limitation (such as when we exercise curiosity in lieu of or without faith or experience). Only in retrospect, in light of the Redemption, is the Fall seen as a blessing, and not because of the sin but because the sin could be forgiven. In the moment, it must have been a horrible awakening.

[CV75]

While it seems unlikely the opposing sides on this issue will come to agreement any time in the near future, I find it interesting that such different viewpoints can be advocated by devout and intelligent Mormons.

In my case, just devout... But as long as we are, the answers we need will come by and by.

[tonyloaf]

Its seems this question is generating more debate than is necessary. If sin were required by the plan of salvation, then the command "be ye therefore perfect" would be made void, It would be a contradiction. There is a profound difference between what God, by virtue of his omniscience, foresees or expects will happen, i.e. that all his children except one will sin because of their inherent weaknesses, and what he wants or requires of them. The plan was to allow sin, not to require it. I personally experience plenty of pain and misery that is totally unrelated to sin. When I am puking out my guts over the toilet because of the flu, I'm not thinking "gee, I'm glad I sinned so that I could experience this and gain knowledge." We learn plenty from just living in a fallen world.

[CV75]

P.S. I'm thinking of Eve's declaration, after she heard the Gospel "and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient..." I think she was, and we should be, glad to finally face our limitations and receive the grace that is offered to overcome them. Kind of the same spirit as Ether 12:27, "And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness ...and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them." As spirits we came unto Christ, and what better way to show us our weakness than to put us into the Garden of Eden, or mortality, and continue the process of perfection in Him. He does not command us to sin, but shows us how we are not capable of not sinning.

[mercyngrace]

I think she will come to agree with me sooner than you think.

I'll take that wager.

By the way, I'm wondering if we've met IRL. There's something so familiar about you. Are you by any chance a

?