If God doesn't want us to sin . . .

[consiglieri]

They eat of it once, we don't need to eat of it again. The rest of your post was answered (twice) before.

The Genesis account is clear that Adam and Eve gained their knowledge of good and evil through violating the commandment of God to not eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.

The Genesis account is also clear that by doing so, Adam and Eve became as the Gods to know good and evil.

In order for us to become as the Gods to know good and evil, we must do as Adam and Eve did, which is to violate a commandment of God.

We must sin in order to know evil, and we cannot know (or do!) good until we know evil.

In other words, we are incapable of doing good unless we have done evil.

And Lehi makes a special point of this "probationary state" being prolonged to give Adam and Eve the opportunity to repent. Our "probationary state" in mortality thus becomes a place and time when we can gain the knowledge of good and evil through sin, and yet not have to live forever with the consequences of sin.

It is all rather ingenious, really.

At least, that is what the Book of Mormon teaches.

Why do you have such a problem with Book of Mormon doctrine?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Consiglieri... I would disagree.

'Them' refers to those who are spirits, thus, Jesus was a spirit at the time.

It is possible to be endowed with the power of being a God while being a spirit - the Holy Ghost for example.

I have no problem with your disagreement, TAO.

But I think you have two unsupported assumptions in your post.

The first is that "them" refers to those who are spirits, and the second is that Jesus was a spirit at the time.

Although this is the received Mormon understanding of this passage, there is nothing in the passage itself to indicate this is correct.

While it may be possible to be endowed with the "power of being a God while in the spirit," we are talking about actually being Gods.

And although there are doubtless things not revealed in the scriptures, if we are to go by what the scriptures say, there is only one way to godhood . . . and that is through mortal life, resurrection and exaltation.

If the Holy Ghost was a God prior to the creation of this world (and he apparently was), there is only one way he could have become such . . . and that is the same way that the Father and the Son became Gods prior to the creation of the world . . . through experiencing mortal life, resurrection and exaltation.

At least if the scriptures give the answser to this question.

But once again, I do not wish to derail this thread by further elaboration on this issue. If you are sufficiently interested in the subject, you could start a thread on it and I will be happy to chime in.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Ah, well, yeah, you see there was a period of time in the pre-existence when the Lord was experimenting with the idea of for-ordaining spirits to the office of a lawyer.

It has been observed by Bible scholars that the Old Testament role of the Satan is to be an accuser before God, and that this is quite similar to the actions of a prosecuting attorney . . .

[consiglieri]

Yah, nah, sins aren't necessary - they can help though, in the learning process. However, they can also hurt.

It is the "hurt" caused by sin that is essential to salvation.

[consiglieri]

He wants us to choose Him, so He created a plan where we could choose Him. He does not want us to choose against Him, so He created a plan where we could choose Him. The plan is long-term, so faith and patience are required.

I think this is an important point, CV75.

You use the word "choose" over and over again, and that is spot on, in my opinion.

The purpose of this life is to choose to enter into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.

But we, as Adam and Eve, cannot make this choice without a reason to do so.

That reason is sin.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

As far as we can know now, after the events that actually transpired. Adam and Eve were bound to transgress, and we were bound to sin because of imperfectly developed agency. Only Christ had developed such agency, and His atonement and our imperfection were accounted for in the plan. The plan does not require that we sin, but is designed because it is in our undeveloped nature to do so, and in Christ's perfect nature to atone in our behalf. So it works without requiring us to sin, but only in acknowledgment that we do sin (according to our free will). It also works without requiring Christ to atone, but only in acknowledgment that He does (according to His free will).

This seems an appropriate time to discuss further the subject of law and commandment.

With no law and commandment, man could never sin, as there would be nothing to violate.

It would be perfectly with God's power to create a law such that the vast majority of us would never break it.

Let's say God had one commandment, and that commandment was not to kill other people.

Most of us could live our lives through without violating that commandment. According to received Mormon understanding, we would then have justified ourselves through obedience to the law.

But instead, God has given us a law so onerous to our nature that we are incapable of keeping it perfectly, and thus we have to sin.

This thread seeks to explore why God would do this if he didn't want us to sin in the first place.

It also questions the correctness of the supposition that one could be saved through obedience to the law.

I mean, God is the one in charge of the parameters of this little experiment we call mortality.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[mercyngrace]

It has been observed by Bible scholars that the Old Testament role of the Satan is to be an accuser before God, and that this is quite similar to the actions of a prosecuting attorney . . .

But the D&C indicates that we have an Advocate, a defense attorney. Apparently lawyers are only half bad...

[consiglieri]

Those who sin less (qualitatively or quantitatively) in their life find it easier to reach eternal life. Sin is therefore not a prerequisite for salvation, but a necessary condition of mortality. It is the overcoming of sin that is required for salvation, not its perpetration.

I understand why you would feel this way, but in actuality, those who sin more find it easier to reach eternal life.

The wicked man is closer to (finding) God than the righteous.

As taught over and over in the scriptures (as ably pointed out by mercyngrace), the wicked are closer to eternal life than those who try to follow all the commandments.

It is just one more irony in a gospel filled with ironies.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

But the D&C indicates that we have an Advocate, a defense attorney. Apparently lawyers are only half bad...

Indeed, criminal defense lawyers find themselves in the role of Jesus Christ.

Add that to the irony list . . .

[consiglieri]

Goodness.... You STILL never cease to amaze me with your "questions". Are you really "sure" you're LDS? Cause this is such an obvious and well known answer.

It's NOT that God doesn't want us to sin, it's that he wants us to "overcome sin", to become masters over the flesh. This is the entire purpose of life, the most fundamental teaching and aspect of the Restored Gospel. Goodness gracious. You're questions are simply amazing to me.

I understand why you stand all amazed, Obiwan.

But the fact is I am proposing nothing more than what the Book of Mormon declares.

Am I less LDS for believing what the Book of Mormon teaches?

And are you more LDS for denying it?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

mercyngrace:

Falling was not a requirement in the GoE. Obeying God was.

If God wanted us to obey him perfectly, he could (would) have given us a law we could obey perfectly.

Ready for another irony?

Keeping the law perfectly is not the way to salvation.

Sinning is the way to salvation.

Obedience is the way to damnation.

Any questions?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.

I don't know where you guys get these strange ideas from, but it ain't Mormonism. If this is what you people actually believe, then you folks are an embarrassment to Mormonism, because that is not what Mormonism teaches.

If I have to choose between the teachings of Mormonism and the teachings of the Book of Mormon, which would you suggest?

[consiglieri]

His point was that we don't have to sin, but we have all chosen to sin.

If we don't have to sin, ed2276, I propose that you simply stop doing so for the rest of your life.

[consiglieri]

It seems that perhaps mortality is a step in repenting from spiritual weaknesses we cultivated in the pre-existence. An imperfect spirit cannot repent (or progress) without continuing his imperfection in a mortal state and benefiting from the Atonement. This is very different from being required to sin; this is not how things played out from the beginning (we were never required to sin; we always chose what to do).

"Spiritual weaknesses we cultivated in the pre-existence"?

I have no idea whether this is true, but the way I see it, you are making stuff up out of thin air in order to avoid the scriptural pronouncements on the subject.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

One of my long standing attractions to Mormonism, is the freedom (and invitation) to check our dogmas at the door.

That's dogma.

No. That's worse than dogma.

That's . . . dog manure!

--ALF

[consiglieri]

When Lehi said that if Adam and Eve had not sinned they wouldn't have fallen he was admitting that, even though the Plan of Salvation coming to pass depended on their fall, there was the possibility that they could have chosen to obey and thus remain in their immortal state.

So you believe that Adam and Eve actually had the power to frustrate the plan of the God of the Universe?

Interesting concept . . .

[consiglieri]

I think the crux is that agency is most fundamental as to what we are, what God is, and what comes out of its exercise by the respective parties. Also, the "must" is an observation of things as they are (and were, and will be), or what really is, and not a virtual command from God that His children sin (He does not command the performance of evil but leverages the performance of evil for His purposes; He did not create evil).

I think you have this backward.

God does not command us to sin.

Sin is a violation of the commandment, not obedience to the commandment.

But it cannot be denied that God commands us to keep a law we cannot keep, thus ensuring that we will sin.

Sin is a necessary part of the plan of salvation.

At least God seems to think so.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

When we get to the other side, I suspect that a great many of our present understanding and assumptions about the nature of things, and what real "doctrine" is, will undergo huge revision.

Amen to that, good my brother.

[zerinus]

O Zerinus of little faith.

While God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, allowance must be made for sinners ~ Joseph Smith

"Allowance" is made for them after they have sinned, not before. "Allowance" is not equivalent to "approval".

[erichard]

It is the "hurt" caused by sin that is essential to salvation.

I found the various divergent views in this thread quite interesting.

My own conviction centers on what Eve said (MnG quoted this earlier):

And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying:

Were it not for our transgression

we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. --Moses 5:11

Since we all have the capacity to never sin, it is theoretically possible that someone could come to earth and never sin. But since we are made free agents with only a "conscious" (and others around us) to compel us to not sin, we all eventually sin.

Real sin, by the way, is not the actions of sin. Sin is rebelliousness and unbelief against truth. When a person commits the acts of sin, it is always preceeded by rebelling against and rejecting truth in some way.

This world is set up so that we can experience the results of our belief and unbelief, and learn from it all.

As Eve said, "were it not for our transgression" they never would have known good and evil. In other words, because they sinned and repented (both are necessary) they were better off than if they had not sinned and repented. They now understood the truth and did not rebel against it.

Forcing oneself to be obedient is not good enough. Eternal life comes to those who are obedient from the heart because they truly understand and accept the truth in all things. The plan of salvation for this world provides the opportunity to achieve that.

Richard

By the way, on the OT matter: I also believe that Jesus was a spirit before coming to this earth (as shown in the scriptures such as his appearance to the brother of Jared) and thus Jesus never lived on a previous earth.

I also believe that none of the seed of Michael will ever become a Savior on any future earth-- only the seed of Jehovah are Saviors. The seed of Michael become Adams and Eves on future worlds.

[mercyngrace]

"Allowance" is made for them after they have sinned, not before. "Allowance" is not equivalent to "approval".

Indeed it is! Just as it was in the Garden. A Savior was provided after they sinned. How could we know the Savior unless our actions have required that one be provided? This is life eternal, that we know God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent, right?

Sin is that meddling, chipper, co-ed at the party who introduces you to your true love. She's annoying and gets in the way. You certainly don't want her to hang around, in fact you seek to escape the captivity of her presence as soon as possible, but you recognize that without her help, you would've have missed the opportunity of a lifetime!

[zerinus]

An ironic question from one who presumably considers himself a disciple of Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith and Thomas Monson.

Regardless, Brigham Young never taught Jesus lived in mortality on a previous world.

But let's not derail the thread on this.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, and accept Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and Thomas S Monson as prophets, seers, and revelators to the Church. I receive whatever they teach that the Spirit of the Lord confirms to me are inspired and true.

[consiglieri]

I receive whatever they teach that the Spirit of the Lord confirms to me are inspired and true.

So you don't just believe it because they say it?

I fear you are stoning the prophets anew . . .

[zerinus]

The Genesis account is clear that Adam and Eve gained their knowledge of good and evil through violating the commandment of God to not eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.

The Genesis account is also clear that by doing so, Adam and Eve became as the Gods to know good and evil.

True!

In order for us to become as the Gods to know good and evil, we must do as Adam and Eve did, which is to violate a commandment of God.

Utterly false!

We must sin in order to know evil, and we cannot know (or do!) good until we know evil.

Ditto!

In other words, we are incapable of doing good unless we have done evil.

Ditto!

And Lehi makes a special point of this "probationary state" being prolonged to give Adam and Eve the opportunity to repent. Our "probationary state" in mortality thus becomes a place and time when we can gain the knowledge of good and evil through sin, and yet not have to live forever with the consequences of sin.

It is all rather ingenious, really.

At least, that is what the Book of Mormon teaches.

Why do you have such a problem with Book of Mormon doctrine?

Wrong again! You simply do not understand the Book of Mormon. It is true that this life is a probationary state so that if we sin we can repent of it and still obtain eternal life; but that does not mean that we have to sin, for any reason you care to mention, at all.

[consiglieri]

Wrong again! You simply do not understand the Book of Mormon. It is true that this life is a probationary state so that if we sin we can repent of it and still obtain eternal life; but that does not mean that we have to sin, for any reason you care to mention, at all.

I will paraphrase Paul, and suggest that you are never learning and ever able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:7)