If God doesn't want us to sin . . .

[zerinus]

Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption... ~ Eve

...wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. ~ Lehi

That does not mean that we need to commit sin in order to "know good and evil". Jesus never committed sin; how did He know good and evil?

[consiglieri]

That does not mean that we need to commit sin in order to "know good and evil".

Of course it does.

I suggest you go back and reaquaint yourself with 2 Nephi 2.

The entire Garden of Eden story is based upon this premise.

And we are all respectively Adam and Eve.

Remember?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

All that says is that we are to emulate Him. What kind of man was He? Why did the Father exalt Him?

I would be most interested in hearing your answer to these questions.

[zerinus]

All that says is that we are to emulate Him. What kind of man was He? Why did the Father exalt Him?

It means doing the "works" that He did:

3 Nephi 27

:

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for

the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

That is why He was "exalted," by doing all that God the Father wanted Him to do.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

That does not mean that we need to commit sin in order to "know good and evil". Jesus never committed sin; how did He know good and evil?

What did Jesus do in the Garden?

[mercyngrace]

That does not mean that we need to commit sin in order to "know good and evil". Jesus never committed sin; how did He know good and evil?

Jesus was God.

The rest of us, as Consig indicated above by quoting Lehi, must taste the bitter to know the sweet.

Or as Paul taught, the law brings us to a consciousness of our sinful state (Romans 3:20). How could the law do that if we were sinless? The law makes us aware that we need a Savior, that we are the lost sheep rather than a member of the mythical ninety and nine.

It opens our eyes to our own nothingness and allows us to see that we are unprofitable servants in desperate need.

This in turn inspires us to cry out for redemption just as Enos, Lehi, Alma, and so many others before us have!

And then our exquisite pain becomes exquisite joy.

We see our salvation! The Light of the Gentiles and the Glory of His people Israel!

And that's only the half of it...

[Senator]

Jesus never committed sin; how did He know good and evil?

I would submit he experienced/learned it.......gulp.........through us!

[consiglieri]

I would submit he experienced/learned it.......gulp.........through us!

I would submit something else, but discretion forbids it.

Suffice it to say that I think Jesus gained his knowledge of good and evil in the same way his Father did.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

This in turn inspires us to cry out for redemption just as Enos, Lehi, Alma, and so many others before us have!

Cry Redemption?

I like that phrase.

It has a ring to it.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[zerinus]

But why do you think he meant "sinless"?

It means keeping His commandments, and keeping His commandments means not committing sin.

Christ was much more important things than sinless.

And here we come to the issue of commandments.

We must be given a law we will break.

The

[mercyngrace]

I would be most interested in hearing your answer to these questions.

Why He was exalted? Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: ~ Paul

He willingly abdicated His rights to justice (being sinless He should not have suffered the agony in Gethsemane and death on the cross) to save others. Through this act of perfect selfless charity, He claimed the rights of mercy (Moroni 7:27).

This is the work of the Father which He emulated and it is the work we are required to do in order to become like them.

God gave two commandments to men (Moses 7) to "love one another" and to "choose me".

As we descend below all things, laying down the stones we could rightfully throw at those who've injured us, loving them without thought for recompense or reward but only because we want them to be saved, then we fulfil both commands. And we too, are exalted.

Christ's love saves us.

Developing His perfect love, exalts us. (JS TPJS says once we have "perfect love we are beyond falling to sin")

[zerinus]

Of course it does.

I suggest you go back and reaquaint yourself with 2 Nephi 2.

The entire Garden of Eden story is based upon this premise.

And we are all respectively Adam and Eve.

Remember?

I think you have got that completely wrong. The sin of Adam was a special kind of sin. It was unique in its kind. It does not mean that we need to commit sin in order to distinguish between happiness and misery.

[Senator]

That is an utterly false theology that has no place in Mormonism.

Hey! He resembles that remark!

[mercyngrace]

Cry Redemption?

I like that phrase.

It has a ring to it.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I thought you might!

[zerinus]

What did Jesus do in the Garden?

He did not commit sin!

[consiglieri]

Yea, and you got the meaning of that all wrong, if you think it means that we must sin in order to obtain happiness. That is an utterly false theology that has no place in Mormonism.

Certainly not if we remove 2 Nephi from the Book of Mormon.

And the Book of Moses from the Pearl of Great Price.

And then there's that pesky temple endowment thingy.

But no doubt you are absolutely right in this.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[zerinus]

Jesus was God.

The rest of us, as Consig indicated above by quoting Lehi, must taste the bitter to know the sweet.

Or as Paul taught, the law brings us to a consciousness of our sinful state (Romans 3:20). How could the law do that if we were sinless? The law makes us aware that we need a Savior, that we are the lost sheep rather than a member of the mythical ninety and nine.

It opens our eyes to our own nothingness and allows us to see that we are unprofitable servants in desperate need.

This in turn inspires us to cry out for redemption just as Enos, Lehi, Alma, and so many others before us have!

And then our exquisite pain becomes exquisite joy.

We see our salvation! The Light of the Gentiles and the Glory of His people Israel!

And that's only the half of it...

Like Consig, you are confusing the inevitability of sin with the necessity of sin. They are not the same. We inevitably sin because of the Fall; but that does not mean that we need to, required to, or expected to sin in order to learn good an evil, or for any other reason.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

He did not commit sin!

He took upon Himself our sins. He felt the grief, guilt of conscience, remorse, etc... everything that goes along with sin. A pain so terrible that He shrank from having to go throughit, but submitted Himself anyways. So, even Christ had to experience sin (in His own way) to be that perfect sacrifice and know how to succor us in our sinful times...

Alma 7:12

And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

[mercyngrace]

Like Consig, you are confusing the inevitability of sin with the necessity of sin. They are not the same. We inevitably sin because of the Fall; but that does not mean that we need to, required to, or expected to sin in order to learn good an evil, or for any other reason.

Yep. Paul, Lehi, Consig, and I... we're just confused.

[zerinus]

I would submit he experienced/learned it.......gulp.........through us!

In a way we do the same:

Moses 6

:

55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

That does not mean that we need to sin in order to appreciate good and evil.

[zerinus]

I would submit something else, but discretion forbids it.

Suffice it to say that I think Jesus gained his knowledge of good and evil in the same way his Father did.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

He did it in the same way that we are all expected to do (without committing any sins). See my previous post.

[Senator]

I would submit something else, but discretion forbids it.

Suffice it to say that I think Jesus gained his knowledge of good and evil in the same way his Father did.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Feel free to PM me with your submission.

I'd be interested to know if your thinking what I'm thinking.

[mercyngrace]

In a way we do the same:

Moses 6

:

55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

That does not mean that we need to sin in order to appreciate good and evil.

Even sinful thoughts are sins, Zerinus.

[Senator]

That does not mean that we need to sin in order to appreciate good and evil.

I'm affraid it does.

Ohhh...goodie!!!

Where shall I start!

[zerinus]

He took upon Himself our sins. He felt the grief, guilt of conscience, remorse, etc... everything that goes along with sin. A pain so terrible that He shrank from having to go throughit, but submitted Himself anyways. So, even Christ had to experience sin (in His own way) to be that perfect sacrifice and know how to succor us in our sinful times...

Answer given in post #45.